OT: Boys playing girls sports

[Suburban Rhythm]

Just curious for other opinions after reading this on the bus this morning in the local (Pittsburgh) paper:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05271/578985.stm

To me, this is some of the most faulty logic ever. Besides the point that, when I read the sports section, I want to see a score, some stats, maybe some key plays broken down. I realize this guy is not a "reporter" in the sense his columns are just reporting stats, but if I wanted social commentary, I'd be reading the op-ed page.

He wrote in regards to an article appearing a week or so before:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05266/576497.stm

[wade moore]

Here is what intrigues me...

That's what the Ann Arbor, Mich., school district is doing. It's a school district that puts fairness and safety in front of political correctness. Maxime Goovaerts is 13. He's 5-foot, about 100 pounds and a native of Belgium. He wanted to go out for his middle school girls' field hockey team. The school district said no. When the Goovaerts family threatened a lawsuit, the Ann Arbor School District didn't back down. The matter went to court last week.

I'm going to remove my opinion (as best as I can) out of my comments...

What I'm interested to see is what happens in this court case. I see one of two scenarios:

A) The court finds that Goovaerts is well within his rights to play on the girls team and the door is opened for boys everywhere to play for girls teams.

B) The court find that Goovaerts is not allowed to play on the girls team. This will lead to someone challenging the fact that girls can play on boys teams and the court has to state that either girls cannot play on boys teams or put in legal terms that girls are inferior.

[Ragone]

If this happens.. i'm declaring for the wnba draft.. at 6'4 225.. i could be the White Shaq of the wnba

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Here is what intrigues me...


I'm going to remove my opinion (as best as I can) out of my comments...

What I'm interested to see is what happens in this court case. I see one of two scenarios:

A) The court finds that Goovaerts is well within his rights to play on the girls team and the door is opened for boys everywhere to play for girls teams.

B) The court find that Goovaerts is not allowed to play on the girls team. This will lead to someone challenging the fact that girls can play on boys teams and the court has to state that either girls cannot play on boys teams or put in legal terms that girls are inferior.

Yup, i see it like this as well..one way or another its not positive for society in my mind....

[Chubby]

the way it is in NY i believe, is that boys can only play on girls teams for which no boys team exist (field hockey, gymnastics, etc...) I seem to remember some boy playing field hockey while I was in HS in the area and it being news.

[Suburban Rhythm]

The most illogical part of the argument to me is--

They should not be allowed to compete against girls. This isn't just a fairness issue. It's a safety issue.

So, if it is a safety issue, wouldn't you also be against a girl on football team, or a girl wrestling boys? The same safety concerns would still exist, wouldn't they?

Also, he says:

Sure, there's no boys' volleyball teams at those schools. So what. Let these aspiring athletes try another sport if the competitive urge is so great in them.

Again, why can't the girls satisfy their competitive urge playing girl's field hockey (which he'd outlaw boys) as opposed to the boys wrestling squad?

I'd almost have more respect for the guy if he outright said "Boys just shouldn't play against girls, period. Because that's what I think, no reasoning"

[Rizon]

Guys play bowling, tennis and golf, right?

[Warhammer]

Why does society need to make a level playing field for everything?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Why does society need to make a level playing field for everything?

AMEN!!

At what point is it enough?

What if people start saying a certain race tackles too hard? For "safety" issues, shouldn't we segregate that too?

I also wonder...you see handicapped kids getting to play on school teams as well. I'll stop short of calling them token players, but isn't there a "safety" issue there too? So should we have a team solely for males (or females if the case may be) but aren't strong enough to compete with the majority of their own gender?

This is why America is going downhill!

[Off soapbox]

[Marc Vaughan]

I personally think its lazy journalism (as is often the case) - attempting to incite interest through inflaming peoples opinion and very light on any basis in facts ....

[KeyserSoze]

Not news...Boys have been playing girlie games since...well when was invented baseball?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Chubby

the way it is in NY i believe, is that boys can only play on girls teams for which no boys team exist (field hockey, gymnastics, etc...) I seem to remember some boy playing field hockey while I was in HS in the area and it being news.

It happens in Jersey every few years where a boy wants to play field hockey. The women are petty sometimes. The coaches hate him because they think - in a lot of cases, it's true - that the guy is largely better than the girls and then the real hangup was always over the kilt and that he should have to wear it too, since the girls do.

Otherwise, I dunno. In some some sports, it just doesn't seem fair. But other cases, I don't see why not. If a guy is willing to endure the hell for it, I don't see the problem. But obviously only in situations where there is no equivilent sport - though in a situation like volleyball - I can see it being more of a problem than say, in field hockey or maybe swimming.

That columnist is a yahoo, though.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

AMEN!!

At what point is it enough?

What if people start saying a certain race tackles too hard? For "safety" issues, shouldn't we segregate that too?

I also wonder...you see handicapped kids getting to play on school teams as well. I'll stop short of calling them token players, but isn't there a "safety" issue there too? So should we have a team solely for males (or females if the case may be) but aren't strong enough to compete with the majority of their own gender?

This is why America is going downhill!

[Off soapbox]

I agree. 100 years ago there was unjustified discrimination. Now, what other barrier do we have to cross? I understand making buildings with handicap access, but should the handicapped have equal ability to make a sports team? No, that is what sports are all about, finding out who has the most ability to play a sport. That is why steroids are such a hot issue with me. Even if everyone is on the stuff, sports is about who has the best pure physical ability to perform X. When steroids is introduced it becomes who has the best 'roid cocktail to get stuff done.

In nature, every species has a physically dominant gender. In many species it is the female, but for us, it is the male that is physically dominant. Again, I said physically, this does not cross over into anything else such as intelligence, mental balance, beauty, etc. Why does society have a problem with this? Why do some women have a problem with this?

There are several things that I cannot do, but my wife can. My wife is always the one the kids run to when they get hurt. My wife is the one they turn to for advice. Yet, that is taken for granted by women, or even shunned by others who feel that role is demeaning. Why?

Why can't we accept who we are, and spend our time trying to be the best at who we are rather than worry about trying to be someone we are not.

Sorry, this is something that has bugged me for a while.

[Young Drachma]

Back in the 80s, there was this girl tennis player from Westfield (NJ) that had won the state tournament as a girl. She wasn't being challenged on the girls side, so in the spring (boys season is in the spring) she decided to try out of the boys team.

Not only did she make the team, she played 3rd singles her junior year (NJ has 3 singles and 2 doubles in HS and you can't use the same players in different singles/doubles) and came in 2nd in the county tournament. Her senior year, she moved up to 2nd singles and I think she either won the title or came in 2nd.

But still, whenever you go back and look at the history of the tournament and you always see her name on there (Kathy Federici) and you're just like "that's so wacky" but my coach back when I was in HS used to always tell us about how good she was and how it was funny that the boys hated losing to her.

I think that columnist was being lazy (like someone said) and obviously had no interest in making a well-reasoned argument beyond "waaa, it's not fair. waaa"

I would think that any boy who'd want to subject himself to the mockery of large segments of the school population by playing on a girls team - and heaven forbid - being good, must either be competitive and want a chance to compete, or simply, have some other issues.

But either way, I don't think it's something we need to lambast as though it's a sign of a large societal problem. Because it's not.

[Aardvark]

Originally Posted by Rizon

Guys play bowling, tennis and golf, right?

Not at most schools. Due to Title IX, there must be equal numbers of female and male athletic scholarships and spots. (Rough approximation, and there may be some adjustment for percentage of women in the student body.) Since your typical small team sport (wrestling, basketball, fencing, gymnastics) has about 12 players, and your typical football team has about 60 (or more), this means that your football team is equivelent to about five women's teams. So you have to either add sports which you only have women's teams in, or remove men's teams in certain sports.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Back in the 80s, there was this girl tennis player from Westfield (NJ) that had won the state tournament as a girl. She wasn't being challenged on the girls side, so in the spring (boys season is in the spring) she decided to try out of the boys team.

Not only did she make the team, she played 3rd singles her junior year (NJ has 3 singles and 2 doubles in HS and you can't use the same players in different singles/doubles) and came in 2nd in the county tournament. Her senior year, she moved up to 2nd singles and I think she either won the title or came in 2nd.

But still, whenever you go back and look at the history of the tournament and you always see her name on there (Kathy Federici) and you're just like "that's so wacky" but my coach back when I was in HS used to always tell us about how good she was and how it was funny that the boys hated losing to her.

I think that columnist was being lazy (like someone said) and obviously had no interest in making a well-reasoned argument beyond "waaa, it's not fair. waaa"

I would think that any boy who'd want to subject himself to the mockery of large segments of the school population by playing on a girls team - and heaven forbid - being good, must either be competitive and want a chance to compete, or simply, have some other issues.

But either way, I don't think it's something we need to lambast as though it's a sign of a large societal problem. Because it's not.

Then you'd have no problem with some 6'8 guy playing girls hoops in HS? If you make the argument of "she's not challenged" then that opens the doors for boys to play on girls teams for any reason, unless you want to openly say girls are inferior

That's why I'm in favor of it only if there's no corresponding team for the kid's gender.

[johnnyshaka]

If there's no boys field hockey team, then why should he not be allowed to play when any girl would be allowed to play on the boys baseball or football teams?? Should work both ways.

One step further, what if they did have a boys field hockey team but say there is only a couple of teams and no real competition (more like a recreational league for fun) but the girls league is very competitive and provides a much better challenge for the boy, should he be allowed to play for the girls team??

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Not at most schools. Due to Title IX, there must be equal numbers of female and male athletic scholarships and spots. (Rough approximation, and there may be some adjustment for percentage of women in the student body.) Since your typical small team sport (wrestling, basketball, fencing, gymnastics) has about 12 players, and your typical football team has about 60 (or more), this means that your football team is equivelent to about five women's teams. So you have to either add sports which you only have women's teams in, or remove men's teams in certain sports.

It's not as big of an issue at the HS level as it is at the collegiate level. My HS had basically a boys and girls version of every sport except for football and golf (both boys only if I recall correctly)

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I understand making buildings with handicap access, but should the handicapped have equal ability to make a sports team?

Have we had a thread here about the legless kid who got thrown out of a high school football game because he wasn't wearing knee pads and shoes?



Half the Size, Twice the Man

You think you've seen refs as blind as newborn moles? You think you've seen officials make bizarre calls? You've seen zebras who are as boneheaded as a box of hammers?

Well, you ain't seen blind, bizarre and boneheaded until you've seen this.

It's halftime of a game in Dayton on Sept. 16 -- Colonel White High against Mount Healthy. After Colonel White leaves the locker room, the refs approach the coaches on the sideline. Crew chief Dennis Daly announces, "Number 99 cannot play in this game anymore. He's not wearing shoes, knee pads or thigh pads."

Head coach Earl White just stares at him.

"But he doesn't have any legs!" White says.

"Sorry," Daly says. "It's the rule."

Number 99 is senior Bobby Martin, backup noseguard, a starter on punt coverage and a kid, yes, born without legs.

Doesn't slow him down much. He runs on his hands about as quickly as his teammates do on their feet. Strong as a John Deere in the chest and arms, he benches 215 and will wrestle for the varsity this winter. Wants to go out for track in the spring in the shot put. And now they were telling him he couldn't play without shoes?

"I didn't get it," says Bobby, 17. "The ref could look at me and see I don't have feet or knees. How can I wear shoes if I don't have feet?"

"A rule is a rule," Daly said. Bobby was disconsolate as he sat on the sidelines and Colonel White lost 41-12.

How can you throw a legless kid out of a game for not wearing shoes? Can you throw an armless kid out for not wearing wristbands? And even if he were suddenly to produce shoes and knee and thigh pads, where was Bobby supposed to wear them? From his ears?

In fact, Bobby did borrow a pair of cleats and came out during the third quarter with them tied to his belt. You want me to wear shoes, I'm wearing shoes. But the school's athletic director, Carolyn Woodley, took them off, telling him that it was "undignified." Though, by the refs' own black-and-white logic, it should've worked. Where is it written that the shoes have to be worn on the feet?

Is there anything worse than a whistle-worshiping, self-important stiff who can't see past his precious rule book to the situation that stands in front of him? Even if that "situation" is a kid who stands about three feet tall and weighs 112 pounds, 101 of it heart?

Wait. I take that back. The only thing worse is talk-radio goofs like Cincinnati's Andy Furman, who told his listeners the whole thing was "a charade and a freak show."

"The rule says you have to wear shoes and pads, period," Furman told me. "He can't play. He's handicapped. There's certain things handicapped people can't and shouldn't do, and one of them is play football. Would you put Stevie Wonder behind the wheel of a car? No! Who in their right mind would put this kid out there?"

Hey, Andy, you've got to cut back on the glue sniffing.

It'd be nice if any of these people actually took five minutes to get to know Bobby Martin before deciding what he can and can't do with his life.

He bowls, dances and does flips and cartwheels. He flies off staircases on his custom-made skateboard. He weaves down the hall between classes on it doing one-handed handstands. He built his own computer, ground up. He's the guy you go to when your car stereo won't work. Your car, too, for that matter.

Whatever he lacks in height, he makes up for in humor. The other day, one of the coaches, who happens to be missing a front tooth, told the players, "O.K., everybody take a knee. Even you, Bobby."

To which Bobby cracked back, "Sure, coach. Right after you go and visit an orthodontist."

But along come knee-jerk Barney Fifes like Furman and Daly (who didn't respond to my interview request) who decide it's their place to put a leash on the kid.

"The ref said they were doing it for his safety," Coach White says. White tried to explain that Bobby had passed his physical and already had clearance to play from his doctors. But the referees kept saying, "We can show you the rule." White took his broken-up player aside and said, "Don't worry about this. You'll be back playing next week."

He was right. On Sept. 19 the Ohio High School Athletic Association said the officials were wrong and sent White a letter, which he'll keep in his back pocket, just in case. Furman should get a copy, too, for his cave.

Everything was back to normal last weekend. Bobby Martin was happy again, back playing without shoes. And official Dennis Daly and his crew were back reffing, without brains.

Issue date: October 3, 2005

[Suburban Rhythm]

I did read the story last week in USAToday about Bobby Martin.
Apparently, he made the squad based on his ability. I'm all for it. But, if he was on the squad simply because the coach/school couldn't afford to not have him there (PR/legal/whatever reasons) then it's stupid.

Same goes for a girl trying out for a guys team...or guy trying out for a girls team. I'd imagine a kid over 6' and 200 # would have a lot of difficulty keeping up with the girls on a gymnastics squad. If he couldn't hang, cut him.

To stretch the argument a little further, I've seen cases cited that at certain ages, girls excel in the classroom. Others that say girls struggle in the classroom, due to confidence issues or social issues, when boys are present. Should we start segregating all classes. Then, if a girl is showing she's outstanding/underachieving in class, whatever the case may be, promote/demote her to the boy's class?

[rkmsuf]

so let him play. I gurantee the girls kick the crap out of him and he quits.

[Desnudo]

There were two guys in my middle school that played on the women's field hockey team. They weren't exactly exalted by their peers. Relentlessly teased actually. Unless kids have changed substantially in recent years, I would think peer pressure would prevent all but the most serious, or fruity, from trying out for girls sports.

[Raiders Army]

If the men are willing to cross-dress, it's fine with me.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Not at most schools. Due to Title IX, there must be equal numbers of female and male athletic scholarships and spots. (Rough approximation, and there may be some adjustment for percentage of women in the student body.) Since your typical small team sport (wrestling, basketball, fencing, gymnastics) has about 12 players, and your typical football team has about 60 (or more), this means that your football team is equivelent to about five women's teams. So you have to either add sports which you only have women's teams in, or remove men's teams in certain sports.

Yeah, this is the one that always kills me. You can't tell me that Magino wouldn't let a girl play if she could throw better than any of our damnable QBs here at Kansas. Declare football a gender neutral sport and all is well with the world. Unfortunately, due to thread of litigation, this will never happen. That said, it's only a glib answer to a somewhat more complex problem.

Title IX is at the heart of what's wrong with gender equity in this country, not protecting it...

SI

[Warhammer]

Re: Bobby Martin

I agree if the kid is able to perform based upon his ability and it does not put his health at risk he can play. Heck, the whole thing about him trying out for track, if he can throw a shot put or javelin farther than anyone else, he should be out there. As long as he is playing by the same rules, and he EARNED his spot, no problem from me.

Casey Martin is a different story however. Sure, people may argue with the rules of the PGA, but if the rules say you have to walk, you have to walk the course. That is part of the game. Once you start changing the rules to cater to one person, where do you stop?

For what it is worth, my brother has cerebal palsy so I understand from the handicapped person's perspective. That is why they have leagues set up especially for them.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

If the men are willing to cross-dress, it's fine with me.

The little 6 yr old boy down the street likes to dress up as a princess more then my daughter, so I am sure there are some who will be willing to do this.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

There were two guys in my middle school that played on the women's field hockey team. They weren't exactly exalted by their peers. Relentlessly teased actually. Unless kids have changed substantially in recent years, I would think peer pressure would prevent all but the most serious, or fruity, from trying out for girls sports.

Exactly. For those that think boys can just waltz on girls' teams and have an easy time are delusional. They WILL be relentlessly mocked and called names. Only those who really love the sport or are very resistent to pressure will continue on the path.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Exactly. For those that think boys can just waltz on girls' teams and have an easy time are delusional. They WILL be relentlessly mocked and called names. Only those who really love the sport or are very resistent to pressure will continue on the path.

I would hope their love, or at least interest for those new to a sport, would be their main focus for joining.

I just fail to see how any group sees sense in the 'equal, but different' argument. I am an equal in that I should have every opportunity to do what you do, however, to ensure that happens, I must be held to different (lower) standards or qualifications for entrance. Makes no difference if we are talking gender, race, or hair color.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Then you'd have no problem with some 6'8 guy playing girls hoops in HS? If you make the argument of "she's not challenged" then that opens the doors for boys to play on girls teams for any reason, unless you want to openly say girls are inferior

That's why I'm in favor of it only if there's no corresponding team for the kid's gender.

No, I was citing history. I wasn't making a position. Obviously, it should only be in a sport where there is no equivilent sport. I think that girl got a waiver to play and no one cared, because she was good. But it's tennis, that's different.

Like obvious in non-contact sports, I don't think anyone cares too much.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I personally think its lazy journalism (as is often the case) - attempting to incite interest through inflaming peoples opinion and very light on any basis in facts ....

Isn't that how most news are reported nowadays? Everything has to come with a social commentary.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

If there's no boys field hockey team, then why should he not be allowed to play when any girl would be allowed to play on the boys baseball or football teams?? Should work both ways.

One step further, what if they did have a boys field hockey team but say there is only a couple of teams and no real competition (more like a recreational league for fun) but the girls league is very competitive and provides a much better challenge for the boy, should he be allowed to play for the girls team??

According to Title IX, yes. Because that's what that girl's school did. They just created a girls intramural team that was just as shootout and not equivilent to what boys had. But it'd be an interpretational thing, since that was meant to apply to women.

[Donnie Baker]

If a sport is offered as a mens and women's sport. There is no way that eitehr should be allowed to cross the line. It blurs when only one sport is offered.

What boy in his right mind would say to himself "I'm not good enough for the boys team, maybe I'll try out for the girls team?"


That kind of boy would deserve some major swirlies for that kind of pansy-ass behavior. I swear to God he would. Super wedgies, run his underwear up the flag pole with him in them.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Not at most schools. Due to Title IX, there must be equal numbers of female and male athletic scholarships and spots. (Rough approximation, and there may be some adjustment for percentage of women in the student body.) Since your typical small team sport (wrestling, basketball, fencing, gymnastics) has about 12 players, and your typical football team has about 60 (or more), this means that your football team is equivelent to about five women's teams. So you have to either add sports which you only have women's teams in, or remove men's teams in certain sports.

I took 2 semesters of tennis for the broads. I hit alot of balls around.