Poker hand question (not a bad beat story) - your views

[AlexB]

I know some of you guys are serious players, so I thought I'd look for opinions on a hand I played earlier tonight...

I think I played it right, but when you lose the hand, you always wonder.

The blinds were only level 2, and I had folded every hand before, as I normally only play big hands for the first 3-4 levels, because IMO the blinds aren't worth trying to steal until they are 50/100 at least.

** Cahors [Hold 'em] (30.00|60.00 No Limit - STT) Real Money

- andrewc1 sitting in seat 1 with $2460.00
- Booshwazi sitting in seat 2 with $1350.00
- peter8304 sitting in seat 4 with $860.00
- Sir_William sitting in seat 5 with $1360.00
- poke-king sitting in seat 6 with $1245.00
- spikehansen sitting in seat 7 with $1450.00
- BIG-GUN sitting in seat 8 with $1595.00 [Dealer]
- alsy58 sitting in seat 9 with $3195.00
- LennyBennett sitting in seat 10 with $1440.00 - hero

alsy58 posted the small blind - $15.00
LennyBennett posted the big blind - $30.00

** Dealing card to LennyBennett: Ace of Clubs, Jack of Hearts

andrewc1 folded
Booshwazi called - $30.00
peter8304 folded
Sir_William folded
poke-king folded
spikehansen folded
BIG-GUN called - $30.00
alsy58 called - $30.00
LennyBennett bet - $180.00

I was hoping to win the hand there and then, hoping people would recognise I'd folded the previous 13 hands.

Booshwazi called - $180.00
BIG-GUN folded
alsy58 folded

** Dealing the flop: Queen of Clubs, 7 of Clubs, 3 of Clubs

So I have the nut flush draw. Having raised pre-flop, I bet 300 into the pot (now 480).

LennyBennett bet - $300.00
Booshwazi raised - $600.00
LennyBennett called - $600.00

Looking at the hand, I figured another 300 for a nut flush draw to win 1380 was a decent bet, so I called, even though I was fairly sure I was losing at that point, thinking if no club on the turn, I would check and try and get a free river. If Booshwazi bet at me, I'd fold.

** Dealing the turn: King of Diamonds

This also then gives me the nut straight draw, but I still checked, thinking I was behind at this time because of the re-raise on the flop.

LennyBennett checked
Booshwazi bet - $390.00
LennyBennett called - $390.00

I'd worked out I had 13 outs (9 clubs, four tens) and there were 26 cards left, so I figured calling 390 for a chance to win a pot of 1980 at evens was a good call. If it had been any non-club other than a king, I would have folded, as this call left me with only 285 chips, but the king made me change plans.

** Dealing the river: 2 of Hearts

LennyBennett checked
Booshwazi went all-in - $180.00
LennyBennett folded
Booshwazi mucks:
Booshwazi wins $2580.00 from the main pot

I am sure I'm behind without any of my outs, holding only Ace high, having been re-raised on the flop.

The hand obviously left me short-stacked, but I thought the risks were worth it, even though it is very early in the tournament, and I don't normally risk a lot of chips at this stage - was my logic sound?

I managed to get back into the game, and finished third, which seeing as I was almost always the short-stack or second lowest from then on, wasn't a horrendous result, but as I say, was I right how I played the hand, and would you have played it differently?

Any comments appreciated.

[kcchief19]

I agree with your reasoning on the turn. Pot odds make a call there logical, since you have a lot of outs. He could have been sitting on a K-high flush, but I'm betting he's got a pocket pair, queens or better. Without knowing his betting pattern, it seems unlikely he limped and called preflop and reraised post-flop with something like KJs, but it's possible. The only out card that scares me is the Kc because it could make your flush and give him a full house. Still, you have to assume you're a 3-to-1 underdog if he has the set. If I'm not ready to put my tourney life on the line right now, I might go ahead and lay it down.

Where I think you made a loose decision was after the flop. A limper calls your overbet preflop and the reraises after the flop. At this point, you're on nothing but a draw and you have to figure him for top pair at worst. You made your stab at the pot and bought information. I would have probably walked away right there.

[saldana]

i would have checked after the flop, then if he was still on a draw for a king high flush, he would have checked as well, but if he had a pair (i think he had kings or AK), he should have bet strongly after the flop to try to scare you off the draw, and then you could have folded.

[GoldenEagle]

I am thinking I may make a crying call at the pot on the river. I am not going to beat much, but getting 14 to 1 odds I only have to win one 7% of the time to show profit. H He could have been on a busted flop draw and jsut making a play at the pot. Again, not likely, but worth a call.

I also would make a smaller probe bet on the flop. You have to fire some chips out there, but not 62% of the pot. I would say a bet of 100 or so will get the job done.

[Honolulu Blue]

From a pot odds perspective, it's hard to criticize any of your decisions. However, I would have played this hand a lot differently:

1) AJs is a little weak to be raising out of position against three limpers, IMO. I figure it's too likely that someone was going to call somewhere along the line. So I would have just called here.
2) The flop is nice, but it's still a drawing hand. I'd try to get a free card here. He wouldn't have given me one, but I would like to see what kind of strength he thinks he has. A bet of, say, 60, is a definite call for me, while a bet of 300 would have me heading for the hills. Too early to get involved in big pots on what's at best a coin flip.

But good job to make the money after being such a short stack.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I agree with your reasoning on the turn. Pot odds make a call there logical, since you have a lot of outs. He could have been sitting on a K-high flush, but I'm betting he's got a pocket pair, queens or better. Without knowing his betting pattern, it seems unlikely he limped and called preflop and reraised post-flop with something like KJs, but it's possible.

Where I think you made a loose decision was after the flop. A limper calls your overbet preflop and the reraises after the flop. At this point, you're on nothing but a draw and you have to figure him for top pair at worst. You made your stab at the pot and bought information. I would have probably walked away right there.

Yeah, I was hoping that after 13/14 straight folds at the start of the game, my first action being a raise from the BB to a call and a limper would be respected, but it wasn't. I got and recognised the information, but he either cleverly bet small amounts to keep me interested, or more likely (as I found out later in the tourney) or was trying to put me off with small bets holding top pair or an ace. Either way, I was beat or was playing into a split pot at best unless I made my draw, but the odds were screaming at me!

I didn't think he had a decent pocket pair, as he probably would have initially raised pre-flop. The only bit in my logic that I realised last night was flawed was as I one of the hands I put him at the time on was a made flush (it's only after I saw a few of his hands that I reckon it was Ace high or single pair now), I don't know why I was bothered about the tens making me a straight. Doh!

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I am thinking I may make a crying call at the pot on the river. I am not going to beat much, but getting 14 to 1 odds I only have to win one 7% of the time to show profit. H He could have been on a busted flop draw and jsut making a play at the pot. Again, not likely, but worth a call.

I did think about a call on the river, but I wasn't overly concerned about having 285 chips with 9 players, the blinds at 15/30, and next level 25/50, as I still had some time to find a hand, but 105 chips is a different story - didn;t have enough to put anybody off a hand, and even doubling up doesn't really help a huge amount. The re-raise suggested to me that he had made a hand of some sort. Not calling the 180 was a difficult decision, but from the flop onwards I was assuming I was behind, but with a nut draw, so while the odds were great, I thought it the negatives outweighed the outside chance of winning.

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

1) AJs is a little weak to be raising out of position against three limpers, IMO. I figure it's too likely that someone was going to call somewhere along the line. So I would have just called here.

But good job to make the money after being such a short stack.

I was hoping after 13 straight folds and being in BB my raise would finish the hand there and then.

I promised a no bad beat story on the title, but as it goes my AK suited was busted by 78o hitting two pair on the river against my pair of As to put me out! If I had doubled through, I would have been on a par with the next lowest guy, although then immediately in BB afterwards. But I was lucky to get this hand then UTG 3-handed, as I would have been forced to go all in on the big blind next hand anyway with any two cards.


Thanks for the input guys - valuable advice: I've found by avoiding this type of hand early on I can do very well in STTs, and have recently folded KK in small blinds when there has been raise and re-raise before me, thinking that it could get very expensive very quickly, and it's not worth it given the two bets. But the pre-flop calls and then low post-flop bet heads up suckered me in this time!