CM: How long for immersion?

[digamma]

I haven't played any of the CM series. I downloaded the CM4 demo the other day and played around with it. It definitely seems daunting at first.

I know I've read on this board about different people's experience of having to play it once and then come back to it later before getting hooked.

I know the guide on sigames site has also been considered very helpful.

A couple of questions before I get going some more with the demo and decide whether to purchase:
How long did it take you to become immersed in the game? How long did it take you to get to know your players? This seems most daunting to me, right now--the fact that the team has about 35 players and that you have to decide which 23 to suit up and which 11 to start. On top of that you have your reserve squads and youth squads.

Along those lines, how long did it take you to get into a pace of playing the game? And how much micromanagement is there along the way?

Thanks.

[GoldenEagle]

Oh I would say about 5 minutes.

[illinifan999]

3 minutes.

[Marmel]

For me, it never happened, despite numerous attempts due to the high praises this game received. I got over the fact that it was soccer, but was not able to overcome my lack of knowledge (and probably my lack of wanting to gain knowledge) of the sport.

Note: This is not CM4, but an early version of the game (3?, 01/02?, don't even remember) that I own.


Edited to add: Not entirely true. After about the 5th or 6th run through of the game, I finally started to get the hang of it, and enjoyed it for a very short time, but alas, my lack of knowledge quickly dimished the new found enthusiasm.

[Marc Vaughan]

I try and ensure that you can play CM as deep or as shallowly as you want to.

For instance with regards to the squads in CM4, if you are still finding your depth just ignore all but the first team squad - by default your assistant manager will handle the other two squads and you can get on with worrying about the stars in the first team.

The squads are already split up at the start of the game so you don't have to worry about that too much either.

Things are similar with most aspects of the game (ie. training etc.), obviously there is a slight 'edge' lost in leaving things this way (especially if your assistant manager isn't very good) - but it doesn't seriously affect a clubs ability to be successful.

Incidentally I'm in the middle of writing a guide for CM4 and this should be available to people as a download at some point next week (Nick, who's grammar is much better than mine is proof-reading it for me currently).

[JHandley]

I got into CM3 when I first got it. I would suggest starting off with one of the bigger clubs just to feel your way around the game. You'll have money to get a feel for the transfer market and you'll have the money to make mistakes in the transfer market. Also, if you just take the Asst. Manager's suggestions, you'll field a team good enough to stay pretty high on the table. Admittedly, there is very little challenge in playing with the big clubs, but I just considered it a tutorial.

I think you get to know your players much quicker than in other text sims because they have actual personality.

I think the thing that intially requires people to have to come back to it a couple times is the interface. It's unlike any other game. I personally found that I "got it" when I started to just click anything that looked like it might be clickable. I soon figured out that just about everything is clickable and will take you to a new screen. Because of this, it's so interchangeable, that you can take many different paths to get to the same place.

I hope this helps you out.

[Radii]

How long it takes to get hooked and totally immersed is totally dependant on you really, I don't think that anyone has just taken to it immediately but some get it during their first game and some put it away and try again later and really get involved with it.

Me, I played CM2 and CM3 and CM01/02 and enjoyed it but never got truly totally immersed in it. When I started playing again after the world cup last year though I got so hooked on it

From what I understand the level of micromanagement is very customizable in CM4. Most people let their assistant manager run their reserve squad. To be honest, the only thing I've ever done with my reserve squad is look at it at the beginning of every new season, decide what players I want on the senior team, what players I'm going to give up on and release, and what players need more time on the reserve squad. After that I often don't look at the reserves again during the entire season.

The other areas where micromanagement can get espicially heavy are training, tactics, and transfer management.

Training: It looks to be really in depth in CM4, a ton moreso than older versions. You assign training schedules to each individual player and assign coaches to coach each round of training. You can go with some defaults or come up with your own, and its often very very hard to tell exactly how much your teams performance has to do with your training regimen... so again, you could spend an hour on it or just a few minutes a season.

Tactics: Your assistant can recommend a starting lineup now in CM4, and default tactics seem to be setup when you select a formation. You can go tweak what every individual player does or you can just leave it alone, you can win just by leaving it alone for sure. I never changed my tactics too much, I'd send people on forward runs, and mess with man marking vs zonal, but Ididn't experiment too much. I'm hoping with the 2d match engine I will actually spend more time here because seeing what's happening on the pitch as a result of my tactics will lead me to come up with more tweaks...

transfer management: This is how much time you spend searching the world for new players and trying to sign them. You can spend DAYS doing this, or you can send your scouts out, and pick and choose what you like from your scouting reports and spend not too much time with it.


Getting to know your players: This is the #1 reason I like to write dynasty reports on my CM games, I get much more immersed that way. When I first start a new game I probably spend about an hour and a half writing down info on all my players, when I do it in a dynasty I just write it up in a post so I've got all the key info in my dynasty report. I assess each player, and each position, and what formation most suits my team, before I ever click anything at all. From then on its just tweaking throughout the season. I repeat at the beginning of each new season, though it doesn't take nearly as long because I know the players by the start of my second season. I finalize my lineup again, look for weaknesses to try to replace in the transfer market, that kind of thing. Again, how fast you really get to know your players depends on how much time you like to spend in this portion of the game. For me, doing the dynasty report forces me to get to know my players, and I spend a lot more time on this part of the game and that's where I get most of my enjoyment out of it.


In terms of the pace of the game, I think this holds mostly for the offseason. As the guides will tell you, what you do on the first day of a new season is critically important. Having a list of tasks you do at the start of a new season before you run a single day to make sure your'e prepared for the new season is critical and it takes some time. The way I can tell I'm really doing well and really into the game and really flowing well is when I start a new season, get up to get a soda while the new season is loading, and immediately run through my checklist and am raring to go for the new season, it usually takes 2 or 3 seasons into a dynasty for me.


That is a dreadfully long post, sorry!

[moriarty]

Diagamma,

I want to say it took me several months of game time before I really started to 'get hooked' on CM (that was a while ago). Definitely play out the demo - i think it's six months, and start with a good club so that you don't get too frustrated while you are learning.

IMO, i would definitely have the assistant manage the reserve, under 19, and training at the beginning and basically 'ignore' those until you get more familiar.

You can experiment with the tactics / lineups and use the average ratings to get a good feel for performance. You'll find various areas that on average rate lower (attackers, midfield, defenders, goaltenders ) than the best teams and focus on the transfer market in these areas.

Hope that helps.

[Buzzbee]

I played through the demo of 01/02 3 times. Each time I got sacked. I didn't have a clue about a lot of things, and that really kept me from enjoying the game. Each time I played through the demo, I began picking up more and more and started to connect the dots. Finally, on the 4th time through the demo, things started to click and I was hooked.

A few suggestions to help speed along the immersion. I began reading Radii's dynasty report. This helped me tremendously because as he reported his actions, I began to learn what effects certain things had. For example, when he reported that he wouldn't pay a transfer of $xxx,xxx for a Division II player, it gave me some sort of guidline of what was appropriate and what was outrageous. Reading through others dynasties can help teach you things you otherwise would have missed. By the way THANKS RADII!!!!

Also in RADII's posts he referenced a website, the dugout, which had a very helpful guide that explained certain areas very well. I don't remember the exact website, but Radii can probably post a link for you.

Finally, although it sounds kind of silly, JHandley's suggestiong of clicking everything in sight is actually pretty good advice. The more I looked for links, the more I found, and the more I found, the more I learned. The more I learned, the better I got, and the better I got, the more I became immersed.

Good luck!!!

[moriarty]

Oh, and definitely download Marc's guide when it comes out for CM4. His older guide was by far the biggest thing that helped me in navigating/understanding the vast depth of the CM world.

[digamma]

Thanks for all the responses. I think I'll fire up the demo again this weekend for some more learnin'.

Any suggestions for a club to pick?

[moriarty]

Clubs with alot of money such as Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United would be good to start with.

I'm personally a Liverpool fan, but Man Utd probably has the most talent.

(hopefully the Kop gods will forgive me for uttering that last sentence).

[Marc Vaughan]

"Any suggestions for a club to pick?"

Pick Brighton ... but then being a Brighton supporter I would say that wouldn't I

(hey we need all the recruits we can get )

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
"Any suggestions for a club to pick?"

Pick Brighton ... but then being a Brighton supporter I would say that wouldn't I

(hey we need all the recruits we can get )

Ahhhh. No WONDER my Bristol Rovers could never beat Brighton. Teacher's Pet! Teacher's Pet!!

[Radii]

Originally posted by Buzzbee

Reading through others dynasties can help teach you things you otherwise would have missed. By the way THANKS RADII!!!!

Wow thanks I am flattered.

The website is http://www.thedugout.net. All of the help pages there were specific to CM3 or CM01/02 and they're nowhere near the main page anymore, I don't nkow how valid they are anymore either, but it's a good resource nonetheless

[rexalllsc]

Well, I download CM3 about a year before the World Cup, and started w/ ManU. I lost my first game 5-1, and gave up on the game. Blah. I didn't know sh!t.

When the WC came around, I got wayyy into soccer again, and re-downloaded it. Using Marc's manual when I started, and reading as much as I could about tactics...the rest is history:

[Bee]

I know a lot of others are suggesting to start off with one of the big clubs with lots of money and star players. I tried this the first time I played the game (a few versions back) and I just didn't like it. The problem for me was all the players looked so good I couldn't tell them apart. When I looked at the ratings everyone was so talented I couldn't figure out who to start and who to send to the reserves. I made lots of mistakes and just didn't have a good time. I ended up giving it another try a couple months later and decided to go with a weaker team. That made all the difference in the world for me. Instead of everyone with 15-20 on every skill, I was seeing guys with ratings across the board from 1 to 20. It just made it easier for me to see who was ready to play and who needed to sit. I still lost a lot of matches, but I could tell when I looked at a potential transfer if they would help my team or not. After that I began to get attached to certain players who I had brought in that helped turn my club around. With the "personalities" of the players, it just made the whole experience that much better. Every year now, the game and the experience seems to get better for me.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Bee
I know a lot of others are suggesting to start off with one of the big clubs with lots of money and star players. I tried this the first time I played the game (a few versions back) and I just didn't like it. The problem for me was all the players looked so good I couldn't tell them apart. When I looked at the ratings everyone was so talented I couldn't figure out who to start and who to send to the reserves. I made lots of mistakes and just didn't have a good time. I ended up giving it another try a couple months later and decided to go with a weaker team. That made all the difference in the world for me. Instead of everyone with 15-20 on every skill, I was seeing guys with ratings across the board from 1 to 20. It just made it easier for me to see who was ready to play and who needed to sit. I still lost a lot of matches, but I could tell when I looked at a potential transfer if they would help my team or not. After that I began to get attached to certain players who I had brought in that helped turn my club around. With the "personalities" of the players, it just made the whole experience that much better. Every year now, the game and the experience seems to get better for me.

I agree. It's nice to see that keeping a team together, and adding top-flight players, while keeping fan favorites HELPS attendance.

For example, if you sign a star, fans will usually hold a big rally on club grounds or something...ahhh I can't wait 'til i get it in the mail!

[CAsterling]

I've been an addict ever since the original version, but really got hooked with CM93/94.

Couple of minor things with this game so far :
All reserve team players default to having large appearance bonuses when re-negotiating contracts, but accept contracts with a 0 appearance bonus.

Started a game, created about 6 custom training schedules, realised I had made a mistake in some of the startup selections, so restarted.
All my custom training schedules were gone it doesn't seem to save them (maybe I overlooked something)
Also where is the windowed mode option - I can't find it.

On the lighter side -
I detest my assistant manager, every decision I make he disagrees with, but I can't sack him as it requires too much compensation.
My defence couldn't tackle a shop manequin, but its fun to watch them try.
I shout abuse at the dots when they miss easy chances, if anybody saw me playing this game they would be convinced I was senile.

Slowly getting into this version, it takes a little getting used to, but it slowly pulls you in - I always had trouble getting into the first season, but by season 2 I should be completely addicted

[FBPro]

IMO it depends on your understanding of all aspects of the game. I understand soccer, the rules, strategy, etc...however I really don't understand all the "player movement, etc" I'm used to the way US sports handle that kinda thing so my immersion has been that I played 2 seasons last year and lost interest....but that is my all time high.

Give my "american football" or baseball anyday....

For those who "get it", it is a great game though.......

[Godzilla Blitz]

I was lost the first time I played, but I was coming from a background with no knowledge of soccer. I remember not knowing where to start, who to start, what to do, what ratings to look for, etc. And there were so many damn numbers. I gave up after an hour.

The second time I played everything clicked about an hour in. I took a much less anal approach in my second start, and I think that helped. I started with a crappy team with no expectations, and since I had no idea who to start, I just randomly selected people to start at their respective positions for a few friendlies. I used the regular 4-4-2 formation and started watching the games. I'd switch in subs to get as many people experience as possible.

After a couple of games of this, you start to get some playing ratings for your players: there'll be some good ones and some doggies, and you so you juggle your lineup a bit and play the next game. After a few more games you start to see trends: you're giving up three goals a game, for example. So you make some adjustments and try some other players, or switch some players around. You take a look at defensive ratings and see how your players look compared to each other, and you make more decisions. Ideas will come to you as to how to solve problems, and you'll keep getting better.

And then it spirals up...

After a couple more hours, you start messing with your formations, pushing people forward or backward, moving people around, etc. And you start buying prospects and players, trying to dump your crappy players, etc. After about five hours, you get completely hooked on your team. After a day or two, you're dreaming about your damn team. And you know your life is lost when you start dancing in front of your computer when your team scores a critical goal late in the year, or swearing at your keeper when he lets in an easy shot to blow a lead.

I'd say just make decisions and see what happens. It'll all happen naturally from there, and you can keep learning more about the game as you play more. You can easily not worry about formations for some time, especially if you're playing in the lower leagues, so play a half dozen games before you start to mess with it, if it seems confusing.

Another big thing to realize is that a soccer season is really long, and you can play some friendlies before it even starts. Even if you suck for a couple of months of game time, you can easily get yourself out of a hole with a strong month or two. So don't worry about losing games, just keep thinking and having fun.

[Radii]

Originally posted by CAsterling
Started a game, created about 6 custom training schedules, realised I had made a mistake in some of the startup selections, so restarted.
All my custom training schedules were gone it doesn't seem to save them (maybe I overlooked something)
Also where is the windowed mode option - I can't find it.

There is an editorial on training that's linked from teh sigames.com site, that mentions the biggest problem w/ training is that you can no longer save your training regimen so you can't even carry training over from team to team, much less save them and post them on the net.

As for the windowed mode, under the game settings/preferences menu there's an option for "full screen" that you click off. You have to be playing in a pretty high resolution to get it in windowed though, I forget what exactly but set the resolution real high and it works

[Anrhydeddu]

I know where Marmel is coming from. While there are quite a few good elements to the game to appeal to many gamers, I found (when playing with a demo) that the details of the soccer elements were a turn off (or prevented immersion). The career-building elements and decision-making are top notch but for me, that's all I was interested in seeing because once the matches started (and the inherent soccer-related ratings of the players), I lose all interest. When one tries to ignore the core and strength of the game, it leaves a huge gameplaying hole.