KU Self Reports to NCAA- 2 year probation

[Toddiec]

Press conference going on now. KU self reported violations in football and mens and womens basketball. Chancellor Hemenway placed them under two year probation. The punishment will not include television or post-season bans. It looks like the football team got the worst of it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2108889

[rkmsuf]

Chancellor Palpatine unavailable for comment.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Toddiec

Press conference going on now. KU self reported violations in football and mens and womens basketball. Chancellor Hemenway placed them under two year probation. The punishment will not include television or post-season bans. It looks like the football team got the worst of it.

http://www.kusports.com/news/perkins/story/114803

I can understand men's basketball, but...Kansas football? That has to be one of the most useless violations ever.

[Raiders Army]

Sorry, I got sidetracked by the women of KU link on that link provided.

[rkmsuf]

ooh mama

[SackAttack]

Dola,

I think it's awesome that the schools in this situation say "Yes, we screwed up. Here's how we're going to punish ourselves: less financial aid for the athletes! Make 'em pay their own way if they want to play for us!" or "Let's punish this year's team with no postseason play for something the coaches did four years ago, before this crop of players was here."

As opposed to, you know, firing the coach involved.

It warms my heart.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Sorry, I got sidetracked by the women of KU link on that link provided.

Trinity frightens me...

Edit: But I do like Sara. The purple lipstick needs to go, though...

[rkmsuf]

dola this:

Sorry, I got sidetracked by the women of KU link on that link provided.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Edit: But I do like Sara.

Shit. Nevermind...

Originally Posted by Bio

Sara grew up in the St. Louis area and loves St. Louis for all its great restaurants, the Cardinals...

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

dola this:

As if "ooh mama" wasn't enough to tell.

[Toddiec]

Oops. I had better hxxp that link. I don't want to get in trouble. Now...back to the pretty pictures......

Better yet, I'll just link to the ESPN article.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I think it's awesome that the schools in this situation say "Yes, we screwed up. Here's how we're going to punish ourselves: less financial aid for the athletes! Make 'em pay their own way if they want to play for us!" or "Let's punish this year's team with no postseason play for something the coaches did four years ago, before this crop of players was here."

As opposed to, you know, firing the coach involved.

He quit three years ago.

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I can understand men's basketball, but...Kansas football? That has to be one of the most useless violations ever.

Actually, Kansas football is doing rather well considering the failure that was Terry Allen. Mark Mangino has done a good job rebuilding the football program similar to Glen Mason before he left for Minnesota. They had some great football games last fall against Texas Tech and Texas as well as big wins over their rivals, Missouri and KSU.

This season should be an interesting season with the Big 12 north so wide open. Kansas has one of the top college defensive football players coming back next season (Charles Gordon) and did well in filling their holes which should make that defense one of the stronger ones in the Big 12. The offense is a bit of a mystery. There's some talent there, but they've had their struggles with moving the ball. I think in a couple of years if they keep progressing, Kansas could really have the talent to compete week in and week out in the Big 12. Right now, they just don't have the offensive arsenal to sustain a drive when they have to.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Samdari

He quit three years ago.

There are still better ways to handle it than by punishing the current year's team for the transgressions fo a coach from three years ago.

Make 'em, like, give free season tickets to the basketball team's games to KU students and, if any are left over, donate them to a charity for the less fortunate, which can then raffle them off to raise money for whatever the cause is. Ditto for the football team.

That way you punish the institution where it hurts the most - their wallet - and the kids on the teams aren't getting hurt (either through fewer scholarship opportunities or a lack of postseason play opportunities) for what happened 3 years ago.

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

There are still better ways to handle it than by punishing the current year's team for the transgressions fo a coach from three years ago.

Make 'em, like, give free season tickets to the basketball team's games to KU students and, if any are left over, donate them to a charity for the less fortunate, which can then raffle them off to raise money for whatever the cause is. Ditto for the football team.

That way you punish the institution where it hurts the most - their wallet - and the kids on the teams aren't getting hurt (either through fewer scholarship opportunities or a lack of postseason play opportunities) for what happened 3 years ago.

But then you're punishing the wrong party as well since the old Athletic Director under whose regime this all happened was removed. This investigation was actually started under the supervision of the interim AD and has continued under the current AD.

As for the violations, the men's basketball violations are minor and mainly due to a mis-informed compliance department at Kansas. This was rectified under the new AD when he removed and then re-grouped the entire compliance department to ensure this did not happen again. The women's basketball and men's football violations are more serious and will probably result in a stiffer NCAA penalty. Most of the areas where violations have been cleaned up due to either firings or re-organization.

[panerd]

I say lock the program up and throw away the key. This is worse than Baylor! Are Mizzou and Quin Snyder going to have to continue to show the rest of the big 12 how to run a clean program?


Please fire Quin

[kcchief19]

Interesting part ... this investigation has been going on for two years in absolute secret. One of the sports radio stations in KC has been in contact with several significant KU donors who were completely unaware. How they conducted a thorough investigation with no one knowing it was going on will be interesting to see. Makes you wonder what was missed.

Which may explain why KU administration was very "understanding" during the Missouri investigation. There were a lot of KU fans who took glee in Missouri's investigation, but the AD and others said that was wrong because that kind of thing could just as easily have happened to KU. Turns out it did.

I think the NCAA will have a pretty good laugh at KU's self-imposed penalties. You can bet they will limit more contact between coaches and recruits and will add some men's basketball penalties.

meanstrosity, I think the men's basketball violations are more serious than you make it sound. Roy Williams approved payments by boosters to athletes who just left the program. The NCAA crawled up Missouri's behind over a few hundred dollars in alleged payments to Clemons that were never proven. In the end, Missouri got some hefty penalties for improper contacts with recruits and given promotional clothing that Snyder got for free to Clemons.

Obviously it helps KU that the AD and men's and women's basketball coaches have turned over since these violations were committed. Mangino is the only coach who had this happen on his watch. But I don't think they are taking this as seriously as the NCAA will. The fact that these things happened in three different sports demonstrates lack of institutional control, and that goes all the way to the chancellor.

[the_meanstrosity]

kcchief,

There's a big difference in paying a player while they are playing for the university versus after leaving the university. This is in no way similar to the Clemens situation. You have to remember that a number of graduating players receive more money for their senior barnstorming tours than what was given to them by the boosters. In fact, according to Roy Williams he was told the payments were ok due to the money made in the barnstorming tour. It was a dumb and un-informed decision by the old compliance office.

A lot of Missouri's problems with the NCAA stemmed from the recruiting activity outside the limits. They had the phone records to prove that members of the coaching staff were calling recruits when they were not supposed to be calling them. Everyone likes to try and throw Ricky Clemons under the bus at Missouri since he was the high profile candidate, but Missouri was hurt more by the coaching staff's phone records than anything.

I doubt the NCAA will add much to the basketball penalties unless they find more in their investigation. The people I've talked to have said that Kansas basketball won't get hit hard, but they couldn't vouch for the women's basketball or men's football.

As for the investigation, it's been kept out of the media and alumni because Lew Perkins has done a great job cleaning house at KUAC. There are no more deep throats like there were in the past in Lawrence. Kansas would be awfully stupid if they did an investigation half-@$$ed knowing that the NCAA will have their own investigation following shortly.

As for the KUAC's "understanding", that's a ridiculous statement. I guess Kansas will have a football player die soon since they were so "understanding" of Missouri's recent tragedy. Seriously, no one in an athletic department wants to see another athletic department go through anything like this. It's one thing to be a fan and have a rivalry, but it's a whole other when you're talking about professionals working in a business. You work for Company A, but you certainly don't want to see Company B have layoffs. Get the picture?

Just take the fan blinders off and step away from the alcohol.

[NoMyths]

Can someone explain how this makes sense? From the article:

"The violation falls under the NCAA's "extra benefit" rule and specifies that once athletes enroll, they are barred for life from receiving gifts from fans.

"The mistake is once a student-athlete, always a student-athlete. So you can't receive any funds or any goods once you graduate," Perkins said. "I really believe it was a misinterpretation. I don't think it was an attempt to gain any advantages."

***

So...no graduation gifts? And no pro contracts?

[Ragone]

yea that does seem to be a poorly written rule.. but i can understand it

A coach could tell a player

"If you come to our school... when you decide to leave for the nba or graduate.. you'll get 250k"

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Ragone

yea that does seem to be a poorly written rule.. but i can understand it

A coach could tell a player

"If you come to our school... when you decide to leave for the nba or graduate.. you'll get 250k"

Likewise, though, I suppose I need to start sending checks to the graduating seniors from rival schools in order to screw their programs.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

But then you're punishing the wrong party as well since the old Athletic Director under whose regime this all happened was removed. This investigation was actually started under the supervision of the interim AD and has continued under the current AD.

As for the violations, the men's basketball violations are minor and mainly due to a mis-informed compliance department at Kansas. This was rectified under the new AD when he removed and then re-grouped the entire compliance department to ensure this did not happen again. The women's basketball and men's football violations are more serious and will probably result in a stiffer NCAA penalty. Most of the areas where violations have been cleaned up due to either firings or re-organization.

Yes, but here's my point.

If the violations come to light after the guilty parties have left, this means one of two things:

a) How can you punish the institution in any way whatsoever? After all, nobody involved with it is still linked with the university.
b) Why is it that the coach and AD have to demonstrate "institutional control" but the president of the university isn't responsible? If the administrators above the AD are still there, and if they can be considered culpable in any way, then my proposed punishment is still aimed at the proper source: the university checkbook, rather than at the student-athletes who may have had nothing to do with the infractions in the first place.

[MrBug708]

Im surprised they didnt take away scholarships from Mens Tennis and Woman's Volleyball? Why not punish Kansas in the sport where the violation occured?

[MrBug708]

Dola

Kansas wont be very good this year anyhow, might as well bite the bullet and have something to blame for their woes

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dola

Kansas wont be very good this year anyhow, might as well bite the bullet and have something to blame for their woes

Why do you think it was a 2 year investigation....

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Yes, but here's my point.

If the violations come to light after the guilty parties have left, this means one of two things:

a) How can you punish the institution in any way whatsoever? After all, nobody involved with it is still linked with the university.
b) Why is it that the coach and AD have to demonstrate "institutional control" but the president of the university isn't responsible? If the administrators above the AD are still there, and if they can be considered culpable in any way, then my proposed punishment is still aimed at the proper source: the university checkbook, rather than at the student-athletes who may have had nothing to do with the infractions in the first place.

Most of the guilty parties are already gone aside from one assistant coach who is being hamstrung regarding his recruiting privileges. And that assistant being one of the better recruiters will then hit Mark Mangino who is also responsible. So everyone that has been found guilty of something or other in the investigation has either been released or is under strict guidelines.

Personally, I'd like to see the NCAA give out fines to coaches, staff members (ie compliance departments), etc who are found guilty. If the conferences can fine coaches and AD's for comments regarding referees then the NCAA should be able to fine staffers for rules violations.

I do think the Kansas is going to get slapped by the NCAA, but they saved themselves in that this was a true self-investigation. The NCAA had no hints of any wrong-doing and this was something Kansas did pro-actively when the new athletic director was hired. And since the new AD, a lot of these things have been fixed due to the house cleaning of staff members. I think it's very likely that Kansas football and women's basketball will be hit with a few more sanctions, but I've no clue how serious those sanctions will be.

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dola

Kansas wont be very good this year anyhow, might as well bite the bullet and have something to blame for their woes

Kansas won't be very good this year? I'm assuming you're talking basketball, but if not you can correct me. Granted Kansas won't be a top 10 team this season with all of the young talent they have, but they could slip into the top 25. And I think a lot of people will be very surprised at how talented this team truly is. They are going to struggle and make mistakes due to inexperience, but they'll be a very talented club. I can see them grabbing 20 wins this season even with a difficult schedule with teams like Arizona, Kentucky and Nevada as well as the Big 12.

[General Mike]

They'll get the same punishment Rutgers got a few years ago. A few scholarships in football, and maybe 1 in a couple other sports.

[TroyF]

I understand what you guys are saying about not wanting to punish the current players, but I don't know any other way you can do it.

Give free season tickets? n many cases, that'd be a minor problem, especially with the revenue they'll get from the NCAA tourney or bowl game. In cases like Kansas (where they sell out all of their basketball games), you hurt other kids at the university, because the basketball and football revenue help support other sports and campus activities.

No. At the end of the day, it's the institution that needs to be punished. The current kids end up getting put through more crap than they deserve (Though I believe the NCAA actually got it right with Baylor. . . if the school is facing major penalties, including post season bans, the players should be free to leave without the one year waiting period)

I agree fully with the penalizing the coaches and admins who were there at the time if they were directly part of any infraction. That should be an automatic.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

There's a big difference in paying a player while they are playing for the university versus after leaving the university. This is in no way similar to the Clemens situation. You have to remember that a number of graduating players receive more money for their senior barnstorming tours than what was given to them by the boosters. In fact, according to Roy Williams he was told the payments were ok due to the money made in the barnstorming tour. It was a dumb and un-informed decision by the old compliance office.

You're following a pretty strong company line, there. Where KU is being naive is believing that it's not a big deal because the money and clothes were given to the player following the completion of their eligiblity. The NCAA defines a "major" infraction as anything that gives a school a recruiting advantage. You don't think having boosters who can (or may have) said, "Come to our school and our boosters will take care of you when you're done." There's also a lot of smoke in the KU report -- Williams says he talked to someone in the compliance office, but he doesn't remember who other than it wasn't the head of the office of the No. 2 person. Everyone else working in compliance has said they were never asked about this. One of the donors say they asked a "woman" in the compliance office if the payments were OK and was told yes. The woman working in the office don't recall the conversation. Out of all those stories, someone isn't telling the truth -- they cannot all be true.

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

A lot of Missouri's problems with the NCAA stemmed from the recruiting activity outside the limits. They had the phone records to prove that members of the coaching staff were calling recruits when they were not supposed to be calling them. Everyone likes to try and throw Ricky Clemons under the bus at Missouri since he was the high profile candidate, but Missouri was hurt more by the coaching staff's phone records than anything.

Missouri was indeed penalized because of the recruiting improprieties dealing with the phone calls -- that's what I said. Critics jumped on the issued with Clemons and the clothing, and other than timing the comparisons are apt. Clemons was given free clothing and allegedly given come cash. KU's players received the same things by admission. The NCAA rules don't care about the timing -- as I said earlier, you can't have a rule that says no extra benefits until graduation.

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

As for the investigation, it's been kept out of the media and alumni because Lew Perkins has done a great job cleaning house at KUAC. There are no more deep throats like there were in the past in Lawrence. Kansas would be awfully stupid if they did an investigation half-@$$ed knowing that the NCAA will have their own investigation following shortly.

Perkins deserves tremendous credit for his handling of the investigation. I think they are taking the women's basketball and football issues very seriously. I just think they are underestimating the issues involved in basketball. The greater concern to basketball is that the university up until Perkins arrived demonstrated serious institutional control issues. The NCAA isn't going to go light just because everyone else is gone. I don't think the NCAA is going to look kindly on the fact that KU took almost no corrective or punitive actions in men's basketball.

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

As for the KUAC's "understanding", that's a ridiculous statement. ... Seriously, no one in an athletic department wants to see another athletic department go through anything like this. It's one thing to be a fan and have a rivalry, but it's a whole other when you're talking about professionals working in a business. You work for Company A, but you certainly don't want to see Company B have layoffs. Get the picture?

You're inferring something evil in my intent that wasn't there. In most situations, teams have ZERO comment about another team's problems with the NCAAA -- it's just not talked about. At the EXACT same time MU was going through it's trials and tribulations, KU officials didn't stay quiet -- Perkins and others in the administration went out of their way to say that what happened at Missouri could happen anywhere including Kansas and chastised fans who were taking glee in the situation. I will, however, admit to a bit of schadenfreude directed at KU fans who went on and on during MU's investigation claiming that nothing like that would happen at KU because KU is different. That's not all KU fans, just some. Do you have the picture now?

Originally Posted by the_meanstrosity

As for the KUAC's "understanding", that's a ridiculous statement. I guess Kansas will have a football player die soon since they were so "understanding" of Missouri's recent tragedy.

If you thought my statement was ridiculous, then I have no idea what your definition of the word is. Comparing a tragic death to nonsense over this crap? I'm done discussing anything with you.

[Airhog]

Does the NCAA ever go lightly on teams that self report themselves for recruiting violations?

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

You're following a pretty strong company line, there. Where KU is being naive is believing that it's not a big deal because the money and clothes were given to the player following the completion of their eligiblity. The NCAA defines a "major" infraction as anything that gives a school a recruiting advantage. You don't think having boosters who can (or may have) said, "Come to our school and our boosters will take care of you when you're done." There's also a lot of smoke in the KU report -- Williams says he talked to someone in the compliance office, but he doesn't remember who other than it wasn't the head of the office of the No. 2 person. Everyone else working in compliance has said they were never asked about this. One of the donors say they asked a "woman" in the compliance office if the payments were OK and was told yes. The woman working in the office don't recall the conversation. Out of all those stories, someone isn't telling the truth -- they cannot all be true.

Anything that gives a school a "recruiting advantage"? So having a coach like Coach K could be considered an advantage and thus is prohibited according to the NCAA? Come on and be reasonable here. Barnstorming tours and working basketball camps are legal and probably are more of an advantage than the money given to these recruits after graduation. I'm not saying it was right because certainly it wasn't, but there is definitely a lot of gray area in the NCAA rules and Kansas dropped the ball on this one. As for the stories being off, this was an event that took place 2-4 years ago. Is it really that odd people can't get their stories straight? It doesn't matter who did what, the fact is that Kansas made a mistake and are trying to correct it.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Missouri was indeed penalized because of the recruiting improprieties dealing with the phone calls -- that's what I said. Critics jumped on the issued with Clemons and the clothing, and other than timing the comparisons are apt. Clemons was given free clothing and allegedly given come cash. KU's players received the same things by admission. The NCAA rules don't care about the timing -- as I said earlier, you can't have a rule that says no extra benefits until graduation.

There are all kinds of "benefits" given to student athletes that are legal. What you are referring to are "gifts". There is a reason the universities have compliance departments because there are a large number of rules and loopholes within the rules. The fact is a booster asked Coach Williams if he could give a gift to the graduating seniors. He was told this was OK by the compliance department since they considered it similar to the barnstorming tour. The fact is it wasn't ok and it was a valid mistake. There's a big difference between a coach giving a player money versus a booster asking and then being told it was ok. Kansas is still responsible for the mistake, but there was no intent of a "recruiting advantage" as you keep declaring.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Perkins deserves tremendous credit for his handling of the investigation. I think they are taking the women's basketball and football issues very seriously. I just think they are underestimating the issues involved in basketball. The greater concern to basketball is that the university up until Perkins arrived demonstrated serious institutional control issues. The NCAA isn't going to go light just because everyone else is gone. I don't think the NCAA is going to look kindly on the fact that KU took almost no corrective or punitive actions in men's basketball.

The fact is that Kansas is self-policing themselves. This isn't like the Missouri situation where an internal investigation was started after the infractions had been reported by the local papers. Kansas re-built their entire compliance department. How can you say they didn't do anything? The coach is gone and the compliance department has been rebuilt. They've done everything they can to correct the situation. If the NCAA disagrees then they'll say otherwise, but I can tell you right now that the people who came up with the penalties and did the entire investigation are former NCAA committee members.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

You're inferring something evil in my intent that wasn't there. In most situations, teams have ZERO comment about another team's problems with the NCAAA -- it's just not talked about. At the EXACT same time MU was going through it's trials and tribulations, KU officials didn't stay quiet -- Perkins and others in the administration went out of their way to say that what happened at Missouri could happen anywhere including Kansas and chastised fans who were taking glee in the situation. I will, however, admit to a bit of schadenfreude directed at KU fans who went on and on during MU's investigation claiming that nothing like that would happen at KU because KU is different. That's not all KU fans, just some. Do you have the picture now?

You say you didn't have an evil intent yet you admit to "a bit of schadenfreude directed at KU fans". That's like saying I didn't mean to spit in your face, but I did mean to spit in your general direction.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

If you thought my statement was ridiculous, then I have no idea what your definition of the word is. Comparing a tragic death to nonsense over this crap? I'm done discussing anything with you.

I'm not comparing a tragic death to anything. I'm saying your assumption of the reason Kansas made a statement was silly and I showed you just how silly it was. Other Big 12 schools have also made similar statements towards the Missouri investigation, but that doesn't mean they had an ongoing investigation. And guess what, other schools will probably sound off about Kansas' investigation and again that doesn't mean they have an ongoing investigation. Why don't you try sticking to the facts instead of saying whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by Airhog

Does the NCAA ever go lightly on teams that self report themselves for recruiting violations?

Yes. The University of Missouri could have gotten hit much harder than it was, but was given some leniency due to their internal investigation. Of course, Missouri only investigated themselves months after the St. Louis Post Dispatch reported of wrong-doings. So how much leniency they received is in question. But they didn't get hit nearly as hard as they could have been.

[Ragone]

I can't believe i just saw the words Kansas Football.. and Bowl game together.. i think i must be in the twilight zone

[MizzouRah]

No wonder they beat MU last year.

[DataKing]

Originally Posted by Ragone

I can't believe i just saw the words Kansas Football.. and Bowl game together.. i think i must be in the twilight zone

2003 Tangerine Bowl

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DataKing

2003 Tangerine Bowl

One of my favorite t-shirts is the official Tangerine Bowl one for us

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Sorry, I got sidetracked by the women of KU link on that link provided.

You're not the first person I've seen go to a KU site and get mesmerized by that link

SI

[Wolfpack]

You actually celebrate the Tangerine Bowl whipping we laid on you guys?

[sterlingice]

Nah, we celebrate getting to the Tangerine Bowl.

Still a fun game to watch. Unfortunately, it got out of hand in the second half

SI

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Nah, we celebrate getting to the Tangerine Bowl.

Still a fun game to watch. Unfortunately, it got out of hand in the second half

SI

Will you guys stop threadjacking? This is supposed to be about the women of KU.