Fundamentals

[miami_fan]

Where have they gone? Everyone seems to laments the lack of fundamentals in baseball, football,hockey and basketball. But which sport has been affected the worst by the lack of good fundamentals? Why can't anyone lay down a bunt? Anyone have a clue how to properly tackle? My choice would have to be basketball. Maybe it is because this is my favorite sport. Maybe it’s because I have been involved in coaching youth leagues and such for years. But the fundamentals of the game have all but disappeared. The midrange jump shot, the two handed bounce pass, moving the feet on defense and not just reaching, etc. are so bad in the game at all levels. Blame ESPN, AND 1, and such all you want but coaches have to take some responsibility as well. IMO too many coaches at all levels have no idea how to teach the fundamentals and are unwilling to hold the kids accountable for them.

P.S. I admittedly know VERY little about hockey and rarely follow it. So I can't tell ya if it has lost any of the fundamentals or not?

[k0ruptr]

for baseball fundamentals watch the whitesox...

[Logan]

Currently the vote is 11-1 towards basketball. I'm surprised its that close.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Can't be football. You don't have fundamentals, not only can you not play, but you get hurt trying... (I learned the hard way. Poor blocking technique=Poor left knee)

edit = I'm an idiot who don't know right from left

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Currently the vote is 11-1 towards basketball. I'm surprised its that close.

Well let me make this clear. This is not meant to slam any other of the other sports. I think that not being fundamentally sound does not affect the game as much in the other sports as it does basketball. Just to recycle my previous examples. The inabilty to bunt, while it is important, does not have the effect on the overall game that say a missed free throw has on basketball. The same can be said about not making a fundamentally sound tackle (or block ) in football.

[gottimd]

Whats Hockey?

[KWhit]

Basketball, fo sho.

[Barkeep49]

I strongly agree with BGL that professional football seems to have the best fundamentals of the team sports.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

P.S. I admittedly know VERY little about hockey and rarely follow it. So I can't tell ya if it has lost any of the fundamentals or not?

If you don't have the fundamentals down in hockey, you end up getting carried out. See Eric Lindros getting destroyed by Scott Stevens. Lindros could have been one of the best players in hockey for quite awhile, but the lack of certain fundamentals (like not looking at the puck as you skated with it) ended up getting him hurt badly several times too many.

My vote went to basketball. Will someone PLEASE teach these rich bastards how to box out?!? And the free throw percentage is just sad.

[korme]

41-0-2-0. wow

[MikeVick7]

Where have the basketball fundamentals gone? And 1 tour.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

for baseball fundamentals listen to the whitesox PR people...

fixed that for you

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I'll say basketball.

[dawgfan]

I think the general consensus that bitches about basketball fundamentals being awful is highly over rated.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I think the general consensus that bitches about basketball fundamentals being awful is highly over rated.

Why, because the two teams in the NBA that happen to have excellent (or at least, far better than the rest of the league) fundamentals ended up in the Finals?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Why, because the two teams in the NBA that happen to have excellent (or at least, far better than the rest of the league) fundamentals ended up in the Finals?

Detroit and San Antonio aren't the only teams full of players with great fundamentals.

This whole rant about fundamentals in the NBA strikes me as just another manifestation of the classic "Things were better in the old days..."

[Logan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Detroit and San Antonio aren't the only teams full of players with great fundamentals.

In that case, I'm curious to know which teams you feel are "full of players with great fundamentals." Sure there's a couple on a number of teams, but nowhere near the amount on SA and Detroit.

[dawgfan]

Seattle is probably just a notch behind Detroit and San Antonio on fundamentals. If they had more talent (and experience) and hadn't been so banged up in the playoffs, they might have beaten the Spurs. Indiana as a team is very solid fundamentally. Those are the best of the best, and the rest of the teams aren't as fundamentally solid up and down the lineup (though some obviously compensate on talent such as Phoenix, Miami and Dallas), but then again I don't think the NBA has ever been top to bottom full of fundamentally sound teams. This again goes back to the "Everything was better in the old days" mindset.

I won't argue that as the average age of NBA players has gone down with more early entries you see more learning on the job at the NBA level that would've been done in college before, and the evolution of the game to one that is ever more above the rim has changed the nature of the game, but I think the recent decrying of fundamentals in the NBA has been an over reaction. I saw plenty of fundamentally solid basketball being played in the playoffs this year, which is where you would expect to see it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

This whole rant about fundamentals in the NBA strikes me as just another manifestation of the classic "Things were better in the old days..."

So players boxing out is just something that was done in the old days and has no use anymore? I watched plenty of playoff games and hardly ever saw a player boxing out another.

[dawgfan]

Different viewpoints I guess - I didn't see a remarkable decline in boxing out from "the good old days" in this year's playoffs.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Detroit and San Antonio aren't the only teams full of players with great fundamentals.

This whole rant about fundamentals in the NBA strikes me as just another manifestation of the classic "Things were better in the old days..."

I was not talking exclusively about the NBA nor pro sports. I am talking about the sport in general on ALL levels. In the case of basketball, from the NBA all the way down to kids playing on the six foot rims. In fact the high school game is the one level I have the greatest concern about. Having recently gotten a chance to watch some of the top high school talent play, I was amazed at those players who had no concept of dribbling with their left hand, how get into proper defensive position etc. Also I am the last person to talk about the good old days especially when it comes to basketball because I believe without a doubt that today's player is MORE physically talented than any other player. I guess that is why I expect MORE of them as players not less.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Different viewpoints I guess - I didn't see a remarkable decline in boxing out from "the good old days" in this year's playoffs.

How much it occured (or didn't occur) in the past is irrelevent. The fact is most players on most shots do not box out their man, and that is a huge lack of fundamentals. And as miami_fan said in his last post, this occurs on all levels, not just the pros.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

How much it occured (or didn't occur) in the past is irrelevent. The fact is most players on most shots do not box out their man, and that is a huge lack of fundamentals.

It's not irrelevent to my point, which is that at the NBA level, fundamentals haven't declined nearly as much as some would like us to believe. I agree that boxing out is done enough, and it's why some players have been able to carve out a living simply by their willingness to do so (and thus rack up big rebounds to minutes played ratios). But I don't think this is something that is a significantly bigger problem than it was 20+ years ago.

[DeToxRox]

In the NBA, many kids coming straight from high school or even a year or so of college have the fundamentals, but they don't play the right way. They come from a place where they were King shit, and their problem is they can't play with other people, or let someone else have the limelight. Meanwhile, European kids are playing pro ball against other pros, and they aren't the stars of the team. I think it's more of an ego thing then anything else.

[NYFAN]

Interesting debate. I think the thing that has really been lost in basketball and the NBA in particular isn't necessarily the fundamental skills (although I think they are still the worst, and I voted for basketball) of an individual, but the fundamental principles of the sport.

Watching the Spurs and Pistons play in the playoffs illustrated this point. Their players were disciplined in their skills, and acted properly as a team. Simply put, they played the game "properly".

Part of that I think is that they had the fundamental skills, but a larger part of that is that they bought into the philosophy, that playing as part of a team is more important than any one, two, three individuals in the game. For example, I bet that Barry feels just as important to that team as Duncan does, because everyone takes responsibility in what the team does together. Barry's role may be very different, and it may have to do more with things off the court than on it, but the point is simple, they see each other as equals. Nazr Mohammed said the thing that stood out to him the most when joining the Spurs was how much they did as a team off the court.

The NBA has turned into such an ego-fest, where isolation plays have turned into a team's primary offensive system, that when teams play together it seems like the players have so much skill, because you never see it... But fact of the matter is, while a lot of players don't have "complete" fundamental skill sets like they should, they would look a heck of a lot better if they played as a team and capitalized on their strengths instead of trying to do things on their own and exploiting their weaknesses... and hopefully with the new CBA raising the minimum age, we'll see more mature players who accept these things...