Terri Schiavo - The Final Word

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?

You were in the room with her? Fascinating.

[JPhillips]

Bubba: Thanks for throwing me that fat pitch!

Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that...her brain was about half of normal size when she died. ...
Thogmartin says her brain was "profoundly atrophied" - and that the damage was "irreversable." He also says, "The vision centers of her brain were dead" - meaning she was blind.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I thought that Michael and Terri were part of the same family. According to the latest Republican policy on what constitutes a marriage: one man and one woman with the decision making authority. Nothing about extended family in there... So much for the importance of the nuclear family.

Maybe Terri Schiavo's last wish was for her "defenders" to at least spell her name right.

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

And inbreeding is usually frowned upon as well, but . . .







Damn it . . . I apologized for that joke. Oh well, I can't help it.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by digamma

You were in the room with her? Fascinating.

Little invention called TV. Get one, the price keeps coming down at Best Buy.

[JPhillips]

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And inbreeding is usually frowned upon as well, but . . .







Damn it . . . I apologized for that joke. Oh well, I can't help it.

You should get sent to the Penalty box, if for only overusing that inbreeding joke. Probably not the only stereotype you use.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

So, science evolves, but we knew enough about Terri Shiavo's medical condition that we were sure she did not want to live anymore. Interesting.

What? Science didn't tell us she wanted to die if she were in that state, the courts did when they found there to be credible evidence. I ask again, what makes you better suited than the court to make a determination here?

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Wha...is that a threat? As I sit here and laugh, look up kccheif, he claims he found the ignore switch and maybe you can talk him into teaching you now to use it. Before you start book burning or something.

Yeah, a person with an injured neck made a threat at you.

I got a good idea. I'll learn to use the ignore feature after you take some grammar lessons. Deal?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

So now your saying that Terri's eye movements on TV were faked? Amazing! How did they do that one?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

Yeah, they even had to blur out their naughty parts, so it must have been real!

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?

Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

You should get sent to the Penalty box, if for only overusing that inbreeding joke. Probably not the only stereotype you use.

I guess I prefer to think that your parents/cousins/siblings were good people, so I'd hate to blame their parenting skills for you. To me, nature, not nuture, seemed like the kindest explanation.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

What? Science didn't tell us she wanted to die if she were in that state, the courts did when they found there to be credible evidence. I ask again, what makes you better suited than the court to make a determination here?

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

[JPhillips]

I'm saying her eyes may have moved a few times over hours of tape(that was edited to only show the moments most favorable to the family) but that eye movement does not equal vision.

You apparently are arguing that you don't need a visual cortex to see.

I bet I win.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

The necessity of a visual cortex is only a THEORY. How do you know she couldn't see without it? Did they even bother to use new scientific equipment to see through her eyes? Were you inside her head? How do you know she couldn't see?

[JPhillips]

Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

What government agency did this?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

Could be her eyes were reacting to audio stimuli, like a blind person would do.
Would still show reaction.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

As was said before, and it is in court transcripts, her parents actually encouraged him to start dating again, during the time he was living with them after her accident.

Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, but it does give the appearance that he didn't take up with the other woman to spite the family, if they were the ones encouraging him to date again.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

I curious if you are actually making an argument here (or continuing your normal duck-and-troll strategy). Is it the government's job to decide who gets the feeding tubes then? If there is a disagreement about whether to insert a feeding tube, who decides if not the government? What if more than a feeding tube (say $10 billion a year worth of equipment) is required?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What government agency did this?

Court system? Or have they become different than the government? Agency is your word.

[JPhillips]

The court made no such decision. All they did was say that the law mandated that the decision be made by the husband.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

Who's job is it then, yours? The most obvious answer is the person in question (who the courts decided wanted to die), the next most obvious is the husband (who wanted her to be put out of her misery). So how did things not work out here?

[digamma]

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I curious if you are actually making an argument here (or continuing your normal duck-and-troll strategy). Is it the government's job to decide who gets the feeding tubes then? If there is a disagreement about whether to insert a feeding tube, who decides if not the government? What if more than a feeding tube (say $10 billion a year worth of equipment) is required?

No, Duck is the other guy, Troll is usually what its called when you make constant 'inbreeding' jokes (implies stereotyping).

[JPhillips]

Bubba also implies stereotypes.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Could be her eyes were reacting to audio stimuli, like a blind person would do.
Would still show reaction.

So what are you trying to argue in saying that she has reflexes? I don't think anyone has ever argued that she doesn't have reflexes, as they are not controlled by the brain.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Court system? Or have they become different than the government? Agency is your word.

As I stated in the original thread, the scenario was a combination of all three branches of government:

Legislative:

Passed a law stating that the closest legal relative/guardian can make medical decisions for parties that cannot make the decision for themselves.

Executive:

Governor signed said law, putting it on the books

Judicial:

Reviewed the situation as it applied to the law, and decided that the husband had the legal right to make his decision, as it met the legal requirements of the passed law.

[Bubba Wheels]

The argument has become circular. And the really witty people have already left. So I go now before John Galt tries to be funny again.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

No, Duck is the other guy, Troll is usually what its called when you make constant 'inbreeding' jokes (implies stereotyping).

So, it is the duck-and-troll strategy. Oh well.

As for my stereotyping, I'm guilty (as I think all people are) of doing it. However, I don't think I'm stereotyping in this case - I believe you could very well be the product of inbreeding because of your posting on this board, not because of your place of origin or other factors (although I admit the name Bubba does give me a little bit of prejudice).

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by digamma

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by cartman

As I stated in the original thread, the scenario was a combination of all three branches of government:

Legislative:

Passed a law stating that the closest legal relative/guardian can make medical decisions for parties that cannot make the decision for themselves.

Executive:

Governor signed said law, putting it on the books

Judicial:

Reviewed the situation as it applied to the law, and decided that the husband had the legal right to make his decision, as it met the legal requirements of the passed law.

It's obvious that legally speaking the husband was in the right. But is Bubba trying to argue that the law should change? If so, what is it that the law should be, Bubba, in your eyes?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

The argument has become circular. And the really witty people have already left. So I go now before John Galt tries to be funny again.

Damn it. Bubba actually got me for once. Foiled by an inbreed troll - I don't think it gets any lower.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

Not according to George Bush:

Originally Posted by Klinglerware, from the original Schiavo thread

Well, it's a good thing for Republicans that Terri Schiavo isn't from TEXAS.


-----
George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas just this week. A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

-----

Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support
By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother.

Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

"I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months .... They made a terrible mistake."

Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

"This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long. It's always sad when an infant dies. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive."

The hospital's description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother's. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from accepting Hudson's invitation to see the baby in the neonatal intensive care unit, citing patient privacy concerns.

"I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself," Hudson told reporters. "So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious."

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.

Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun. Without legal delays, Sun's care would have ended Nov. 28.

Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too tiny to sustain his body, doctors said. Nearly all babies born with the incurable condition, often diagnosed in utero, die shortly after birth, genetic counselors say.

Sun was delivered full-term at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, but Hudson, 33, said she had no prenatal care during which his condition might have been discovered. He was put on a ventilator while doctors figured out what was wrong with him, and Hudson refused when doctors recommending withdrawing treatment.

In fairness to our president, it would be over the top to claim that (had Schiavo been hospitalized in Texas), "George Bush killed Terri Schiavo". But as governor, he did give medical professionals a lot of authority in these matters...

[Raiders Army]

If this thread were to be deleted, Bubba would lose about 100 posts.

[MJ4H]

This thread makes me sick. Some (most) of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Serisously, you should see how you are acting. I could go into detail but it will just piss me off.

If this thread is any sign, I'm losing a lot of respect for this message board.

[HerRealName]

Here's a link to the video. Those eyes are all over the place. They seem to be following voices a little better than the balloon.


hxxp://www.raven1.net/terriballoon.rm

[st.cronin]

Not sure if this is still interesting to anybody, but here's an article that comes close to expressing my feelings:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/foru...=43756&ntpid=2

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

This thread makes me sick. Some (most) of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Serisously, you should see how you are acting. I could go into detail but it will just piss me off.

If this thread is any sign, I'm losing a lot of respect for this message board.

I concur with MattJones4ThirdString

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I concur with MattJones4ThirdString

ouch

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

ouch

I'm sorry, that was harsh and a bit trolling... I meant MattJones4ArenaBowlXXIMVP

[JPhillips]

And Jeb just can't let it go.


Schiavo timeline troubles governor
The state attorney will review discrepancies concerning Terri Schiavo's unexplained collapse.
CHRIS TISCH and JONI JAMES
Published June 17, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


LARGO - Refusing to give up on the Terri Schiavo case, Gov. Jeb Bush has asked Pinellas prosecutors to sort out time discrepancies Michael Schiavo has provided regarding the hour he found his wife unconscious 15 years ago.

State Attorney Bernie McCabe has agreed to review the time elements in the case, his chief assistant, Bruce Bartlett, said Thursday.

"We are going to look into the circumstances surrounding the times," said Bartlett, who declined to label the review an investigation. "The governor has expressed concern over that aspect of the case."

Michael Schiavo has said he called 911 immediately after finding his wife collapsed on the floor of their home on Feb. 25, 1990. Though medical records indicate he called 911 about 5:40 a.m. that day, he told the Medical Examiner's Office recently that he found his wife about 4:30 a.m.

The detail fueled suspicions by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that Michael Schiavo had some wicked connection to their daughter's collapse and may have delayed his call for help.

"I think this is a very troubling gap in time," Schindler attorney David Gibbs III said Wednesday. "Michael Schiavo needs to step forward and explain."

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said if he did give a different time than previously, it was simply a mistake in recalling a detail of an event 15 years ago.

"I think it's preposterous and ludicrous that if Michael did say 4:30 or 5 or something like that, that there's any issue," Felos said. "The opponents of Terri Schiavo's wishes are intent on creating a controversy in this case where none exists."

Bush said he decided to seek the investigation after talking with Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner who spent nearly 11 weeks preparing Schiavo's autopsy report, and learning that the doctor could not determine what led Schiavo to collapse in 1990.

Thogmartin met with the governor the day before the autopsy report was released publicly.

"What he did say to me that was troubling ... was that there was some doubt about when she collapsed and how long it took for a phone call to be made to 911," Bush said. "I think that is worthy of some investigation."

Bartlett said prosecutors will review records and transcripts to sort out the times. McCabe was out of state and could not be reached Thursday.

Felos said it's impossible that 70 minutes elapsed before Michael Schiavo called 911.

"She would have been dead before they (paramedics) got there," he said.

The St. Petersburg Times asked an outside expert, Dr. Amyn M. Rojiani, a pathology professor at the University of South Florida College of Medicine, to examine the autopsy results.

The report says that paramedics began treating Schiavo at 5:52 a.m. after finding her not breathing and in ventricular fibrillation.

A pulse was documented at 6:32 a.m. and a measurable systolic blood pressure at 6:46 a.m. Getting those vital signs back after such a long time was an accomplishment, Rojiani said. When asked if Schiavo could have been revived if her heart had stopped more than an hour before paramedics arrived, he said he didn't think so.

The Schindler family also wants to know what caused Terri Schiavo's heart to temporarily stop beating that morning. They plan to have their own experts review the autopsy in search of answers.

"Our family doesn't understand what led to Terri's collapse," her sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, said Thursday while appearing at the first day of the National Right to Life annual convention in Bloomington, Minn.

She said the autopsy showed no evidence of an eating disorder. That had been one theory for why the then 26-year-old woman collapsed.

Michael Schiavo fought a long battle with his in-laws in the courts, Congress and the White House to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. She died March 31 at the age of 41. The autopsy showed she was blind and her brain had shrunk to about half the normal size for a woman her age.

Michael Schiavo had argued for years that Terri Schiavo had no hope of recovery. His in-laws maintained that she deserved to live and may have recovered somewhat with therapy.

The Schindlers also had accused Michael Schiavo of abusing his wife, but the autopsy found no evidence of any trauma or abuse.

In the days before and after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, Bush tried to use the state Department of Children and Families to get the tube reinserted. He insisted fresh abuse complaints needed to be investigated, though the subsequent release of those reports have shown the complaints were redundant.

Felos said Bush is at it again.

"I think it's sad and disgusting given the governor's continuing unwarranted meddling in this case," Felos said. "The extent to which he will prostitute himself to right-wing constituents for his future political gain I think is just pitiful."

The autopsy results also drew a response from Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who said Thursday he doesn't regret using his standing as a doctor to question Terri Schiavo's diagnosis from afar during the intense national debate over whether to remove her feeding tube.

Frist, a heart surgeon, said he accepted the results of Schiavo's autopsy but stood by his statements on the Senate floor last March, when he argued that on videotape Schiavo appeared to respond to her family. "Would I do it over again? Yes, I would do it over again," he said.

Frist and other Republicans pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation, signed by President Bush, aimed at prolonging Schiavo's life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts. But federal courts rejected the parents' request to have her feeding tube reinserted.

The autopsy results did little to change the opinions of Florida legislators who supported Gov. Bush's efforts to require the court to reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube.

Sen. Daniel Webster, R-Winter Garden, and Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, who had joined Bush in pushing for legislative intervention in March, were unmoved by the autopsy findings.

The autopsy "affirmed the fact that she died because of an order of the state," Webster said. "For us to do that, we should have known positively what her will was. We didn't."

Nor was there any change on the other side, particularly among the nine Republicans who blocked the March legislation.

"That the brain was half the size, that she couldn't have been fed, that she was blind ... really said that we played politics with this issue and shame on us," said Sen. Nancy Argenziano, R-Crystal River, one of the nine Republican senators.

The Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner's Office, which received at least 500 e-mails in the days surrounding Schiavo's death, received more than 20 more the day after the autopsy was released.

"I would just like to tell you folks that I was one of those doubting Thomas's. I thought Terri could have been helped," Gladys Furber wrote. "I believe your findings. Sometimes we don't want to see things, and we don't want to believe these things. I believe it's called denial."

Jeff Donius of Frankfort, Ill., wrote: "You guys have no credibility whatsoever ... it's all a bunch of propaganda and manipulated data aimed at confirming the lies of Michael Schiavo."

In addition, former Lee County Sheriff John J. McDougall received six months' probation, a $600 fine and community service after he was convicted in a Largo courtroom Wednesday of trying to enter Terri Schiavo's hospice to give her water. McDougall, a Catholic who has been outspoken on right-to-life issues, was arrested March 19 outside Hospice House Woodside in Pinellas Park, where he was trying to take water to Schiavo.

McDougall, 62, could have avoided court by paying a $250 fine. He demanded a trial and was convicted Wednesday of trespassing.

McDougall, who was sheriff from 1988 to 2000, said he has no regrets about the case.

"When you see something like that happening, we cannot continue to call ourselves a civilized society if we don't stand up against that," he said.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And Jeb just can't let it go.

I do wonder how much of the money Florida saved by cutting Medicaid funding will end up being wasted on all of these legal and investigative maneuverings...


Yes, that was a tangential aside, but medicaid is what would have paid for Terri Schiavo's care if the feeding tube was kept in. It would be highly ironic if the state couldn't fully pay for Schiavo's care because they cut Medicaid...

[sabotai]

LARGO - Refusing to give up on the Terri Schiavo case, Gov. Jeb Bush has asked Pinellas prosecutors to sort out time discrepancies Michael Schiavo has provided regarding the hour he found his wife unconscious 15 years ago.

It's a shame that some crimes that happened 15 DAYS ago won't get their due attention now...

[st.cronin]

Well, I guess Jeb won't be the Republican nominee for President anytime soon.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

that was a tangential aside

Heh, heh--that sounded like a redundancy...

...much like this thread in general

[duckman]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Well, I guess Jeb won't be the Republican nominee for President anytime soon.

You think so?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by duckman

You think so?

I actually used to think in terms of the Republican Party he was 'in line' - if not next, the one after that (2012 or 2016). But he's really just way too right wing nutso to ever be a national player.

[JPhillips]

Don't rule him out. The primary will be decided by the Christian right. That's why you see Frist, Jeb and the rest making such a play. The Christian right can't chose the winner by themsleves, but I guarantee that the nomination can't be won without at least their tacit approval.