1st Appearance of Numerical Player Ratings and Dynasties?

[Ajaxab]

I'm wondering if any veteran sports gamers can recall the first sports games that used numerical player ratings users could see to measure the abilities of virtual players. Was the CM series one of the first?

I was also wondering if anyone remembers when they read their first dynasties. Would it be plausible to make a connection between the appearance of numerical player ratings and the emergence of dynasty writing?

[CraigSca]

You'd probably have to look back to tabletop sports gaming for the birth of player ratings.

[rexallllsc]

I remember playing hockey and soccer games by Mindscape on the C-64 that had player ratings and allowed you to play multiple seasons.



hxxp://www.insidehockey.com/videogames/history.html

Superstar Ice Hockey
System: Commodore 64
Manufacturer: Mindscape

Superstar Ice Hockey was produced by Mindscape for the Commodore 64. It contained some fairly advanced features, allowing users to change lines, recruit players, trade players and even improve the team's abilities in a "training camp" mode. This game also allowed users to fake passes and shots and manually control the goaltender. While these features probably seem fairly commonplace in today's sports simulation environment, they were quite revolutionary in 1987.

[Ajaxab]

CraigSca, that makes perfect sense.

Do we know of people who published stories about their experiences with these tabletop sports card games or do you think that the dynasty writing of today is in large part due to the internet?

[Flasch186]

remember Omnisports basketball? That was cool too.

[rkmsuf]

that Omnisports basketball was the best.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

CraigSca, that makes perfect sense.

Do we know of people who published stories about their experiences with these tabletop sports card games or do you think that the dynasty writing of today is in large part due to the internet?

Actually, there's a very famous book by a J. Henry Waugh called "The Universal Baseball Association" (well, famous in tabletop circles). It's a novel about a guy (I think in the 40's or 50's) who designs his own tabletop baseball game and the fictional players he creates have as much life as his own. It's more of a psychological novel than anything, but the stories the narrator weaves around this circle of fictional players that come to life via the dice make for some interesting reading.

edit - oops, Waugh is the narrator (and creator of the fictional universe). Coover is the author.

[st.cronin]

Anybody read that book about the guy invented strat-o-matic? That was a very good read.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I remember playing hockey and soccer games by Mindscape on the C-64 that had player ratings and allowed you to play multiple seasons.



hxxp://www.insidehockey.com/videogames/history.html

Superstar Ice Hockey
System: Commodore 64
Manufacturer: Mindscape

Superstar Ice Hockey was produced by Mindscape for the Commodore 64. It contained some fairly advanced features, allowing users to change lines, recruit players, trade players and even improve the team's abilities in a "training camp" mode. This game also allowed users to fake passes and shots and manually control the goaltender. While these features probably seem fairly commonplace in today's sports simulation environment, they were quite revolutionary in 1987.

I remember that game. I also remember that it was quite fun to release all your stars for youngsters, until I found out the career model was broken and youngsters never really got any better

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Actually, there's a very famous book by a J. Henry Waugh called "The Universal Baseball Association" (well, famous in tabletop circles). It's a novel about a guy (I think in the 40's or 50's) who designs his own tabletop baseball game and the fictional players he creates have as much life as his own. It's more of a psychological novel than anything, but the stories the narrator weaves around this circle of fictional players that come to life via the dice make for some interesting reading.

edit - oops, Waugh is the narrator (and creator of the fictional universe). Coover is the author.

Loved that book - wish I knew where it'd gone, I actually recommended it to Markus (who makes OOTP) a few months back ...

Incidentally the first retail released soccer manager was 'Football Manager' by Kevin Toms to my knowledge, although there were several which came out mail order around the same time before that (FM and one by one by Mac Howard (Division One?) being the ones which spring to mind).

CM didn't come in for a quite a while afterwards ....

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I remember that game. I also remember that it was quite fun to release all your stars for youngsters, until I found out the career model was broken and youngsters never really got any better

They fixed that in the Apple version of it.

I played that game to DEATH.

[JeeberD]

I hate you guys. I wasn't allowed to have computer games...our PC was for "educational purposes"...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

They fixed that in the Apple version of it.

I played that game to DEATH.

Heck I played it on the PC in the mid eighties. My XT with a 28ms 30MB drive. Oh but the whole game, dynasties and all, was kept on a single 5 and 1/4" floppy.

[Honolulu Blue]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

that Omnisports basketball was the best.

I don't know about that, but it was very good - and ahead of its time. One of the first sports career sims (wouldn't call it text, exactly), it had some neat ideas and was fun to play back when I was decent with a joystick.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I remember playing hockey and soccer games by Mindscape on the C-64 that had player ratings and allowed you to play multiple seasons.



hxxp://www.insidehockey.com/videogames/history.html

Superstar Ice Hockey
System: Commodore 64
Manufacturer: Mindscape

Superstar Ice Hockey was produced by Mindscape for the Commodore 64. It contained some fairly advanced features, allowing users to change lines, recruit players, trade players and even improve the team's abilities in a "training camp" mode. This game also allowed users to fake passes and shots and manually control the goaltender. While these features probably seem fairly commonplace in today's sports simulation environment, they were quite revolutionary in 1987.

Where can I get an emulator for this game and how many seasons can one manage?

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Where can I get an emulator for this game and how many seasons can one manage?

I want to say 10, but it's been a long time. No more than 20, I'm pretty sure. I remember the easiest way to win was stack your roster with veteran players, who were relatively cheap to acquire, but still had good ratings - except for their stamina, endurance, or whatever the game called it. You could run up a big lead in the first couple of periods before they ran out of gas, then stall in the third to run the clock down. Fun game.

[Mac Howard]

First one with visible skill numbers - one "skill" and one "energy" number if I remember rightly - was Kevin Toms' Football Manager around about 1982 for the Sinclair home computer ZX80/81 some ten years before CM. Kevin and I dispute who produced the first smg but my League Division One had the "fog of war" and didn't have visible skill numbers.

[Maple Leafs]

The Amiga version of Superstar Ice Hockey kicked ass.

I hope Ed Ringler is living in a mansion somewhere right now.

[Ajaxab]

The only problem with Superstar Ice Hockey was that there was one move you could use to score any time you wanted. It would only work going left to right though. That meant lots of goals in the first and third period, but not as many in the second.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

The only problem with Superstar Ice Hockey was that there was one move you could use to score any time you wanted. It would only work going left to right though. That meant lots of goals in the first and third period, but not as many in the second.

House rules!

[Bee]

The first sports sim I played that had numeric ratings was "HeadCoach" which I think might have been by Mac Howard as well. I played the heck out of that game in college. Brings back good memories. If it was written by Mac, I'd like to thank him for all those sleepless nights and giving me a reason to skip my 8 am classes.

[Mac Howard]

Headcoach was written by Colin Adams, an IT student at the time (1985), who played my Division One games and applied the same ideas to the gridiron game. The first game was for the BBC Micro but it really came to life on the Atari ST.

It began life as a cricket game but the stats for that were too massive for the computers at that time so he shifted it to gridiron which had became popular in the UK in the eighties through Channel Four's live telecasts. I converted the game for the Amiga from the Atari version while Colin produced a PC version and I later added a few improvements to this. Every so often I update the data as best I can though the expansion of the NFL has now made that irrelevant.

I do have copyright on the game and am often sorry I didn't develop it instead of SaaP - gridiron is probably a better subject for the text sim approach than soccer because of its statistical nature and a match that plays in few-second bursts - and where I now find myself up against the might of Eidos/BSG, EA and Sega/SiGames

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by JeffR

I want to say 10, but it's been a long time. No more than 20, I'm pretty sure. I remember the easiest way to win was stack your roster with veteran players, who were relatively cheap to acquire, but still had good ratings - except for their stamina, endurance, or whatever the game called it. You could run up a big lead in the first couple of periods before they ran out of gas, then stall in the third to run the clock down. Fun game.

How was the stat tracking in the game. I would imagine pretty limited.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah the Omni-Play Basketball, Superstar Soccer, Superstar Hockey are the first ones I remember that had a dynasty mode. I played way, way too much Omni-Play Basketball when I was younger. I still ocassionally play it via emulator.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Where can I get an emulator for this game and how many seasons can one manage?

I don't know about Superstar Ice Hockey, but both Superstar Soccer and Omni-Play Basketball would let you play unlimited seasons but would only track stats and W/L records for 9 seasons. However it would keep full team individual records (Most Pts./Most Rebounds) as long as you kept playing. The one thing it did not track was assists.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

How was the stat tracking in the game. I would imagine pretty limited.

Yeah, just goals-assists-points, I think. Not even sure if there was a leader board.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Headcoach was written by Colin Adams, an IT student at the time (1985), who played my Division One games and applied the same ideas to the gridiron game. The first game was for the BBC Micro but it really came to life on the Atari ST.

It began life as a cricket game but the stats for that were too massive for the computers at that time so he shifted it to gridiron which had became popular in the UK in the eighties through Channel Four's live telecasts. I converted the game for the Amiga from the Atari version while Colin produced a PC version and I later added a few improvements to this. Every so often I update the data as best I can though the expansion of the NFL has now made that irrelevant.

I do have copyright on the game and am often sorry I didn't develop it instead of SaaP - gridiron is probably a better subject for the text sim approach than soccer because of its statistical nature and a match that plays in few-second bursts - and where I now find myself up against the might of Eidos/BSG, EA and Sega/SiGames

Thanks for the info. I played it on a PC, so I guess I have to also thank Colin for all those late nights in college.

I'm sorry you didn't continue developing Headcoach as well...just the thought of a gridiron version of a game like SaaP is very appealing to me. I think many of the design decisions you've made with SaaP would fit very well with American football.

[judicial clerk]

When did Baseball Stars come out?

[Chas in Cinti]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

When did Baseball Stars come out?

I was just about to bring that one up... I believe it was ~1988 or so... I just remember making my own team of rappers... Eazy-E was a MEAN-ASS pitcher. You got prize money for winning, then you bought better players or developed existing ones if I remember right... One of my fave games of all time...

-Chas