![]() |
![]() |
#101 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Quote:
We live in America. If our higher-ups are truly at fault, they will be discovered, convicted, and held accountable. Especially Republicans. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#102 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#103 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
Quote:
Thats simply not true....and I think you know it.
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#104 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
...that was tongue-in-cheek, right? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#105 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Early, TX
|
Quote:
Thanks, you've convinced me!!!!!!! Vote
__________________
Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#106 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Early, TX
|
Quote:
You are SO persuasive, Flasch!!!!! Sign me up for 50 subscriptions of Vibe!!!!!
__________________
Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#107 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Early, TX
|
Dola.
I think if we keep debating stuff we can't control, we'll change the world!!!!!!!! Together!!!!!!!!
__________________
Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#108 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The DMV
|
Quote:
Nope. Nobody would ever hear about it anyway since what I would do with a Quran is simply is not newsworthy enough to make it to the international news media. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#109 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Quote:
I agree, breakthrough! Of the 20 Quran abuses that have been reported. 15 were done by the detainee's themselves. Nobody cared about that either. So why the hub-bub? Because, as you say, the way it's reported. The pen is indeed mightier than the sword. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
90% of media is either controversial or negative to get you and my and the public's attention. When a Dem is in office, Im sure they gripe that the Media is slanted to the right....this applies here too.
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#111 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#112 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The DMV
|
Quote:
I said no such thing. What I do with a Quran is of little consequence not because the act is no big deal it is because I am no big deal. If I were an employee of the US military and in contact with military prisoners, and I did something with a Quran, that would be a completely different story. I would be jeopordizing my career doing something against my employer's code of conduct, and since I would be working in a place where my work is already heavily scrutinized to begin with, such activities would be incredibly bad PR moves. Thusly, I would be an idiot on two counts... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
High School JV
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco
|
hxxp://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/guantanamo_quran
Probe Finds Cases of Quran 'Mishandling' By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer Fri May 27, 1:21 PM ET WASHINGTON - Investigators have confirmed five cases in which military personnel mishandled the Qurans of Muslim prisoners at Guantanamo Bay since 2002, but they have found no "credible evidence" that a holy book was flushed in a toilet. ADVERTISEMENT The investigation also found 15 incidents in which detainees mishandled or inappropriately treated the Quran, including one case of a detainee ripping pages from his holy book, Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, the Guantanamo Bay prison commander who led the investigation, told reporters Thursday. Hood emphasized that his probe is not yet complete. It was launched about two weeks ago in response to a Newsweek magazine story that said U.S. officials had confirmed a Quran was flushed in a toilet. The story stirred worldwide controversy and the Bush administration blamed it for deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan. Newsweek later retracted its report. Hood, who has commanded the U.S. naval prison compound in Cuba since March 2004, told a Pentagon news conference that a prisoner who was reported to have complained to an FBI agent in 2002 that a military guard threw a Quran in the toilet has since told Hood's investigators that he never witnessed any form of Quran desecration. The unidentified prisoner, re-interviewed at Guantanamo on May 14, said he had heard talk of guards mishandling religious articles but did not witness any such acts, Hood said. The prisoner also stated that he personally had not been mistreated but that he had heard fellow inmates talk of being beaten or otherwise mistreated. The general said he could not speculate on why the prisoner did not repeat his earlier statement about a guard flushing a Quran in a toilet. The statement was contained in an Aug. 1, 2002, FBI summary of an FBI agent's July 22, 2002, interrogation of the prisoner. A partly redacted version of the summary was made public this week. The prisoner did not specifically recant his earlier allegation; Hood said the prisoner was not asked in the May 14 interview whether he had made the specific statement in 2002 as reported by the FBI. Instead he was asked more broadly whether he had seen the Quran "defiled, desecrated or mishandled." "He allowed as how he hadn't, but he heard that guards at some other point in time had done this," Hood said, adding that this allegation from the 2002 FBI report was the only one Hood found that involved a toilet. Other prisoners who were returned to their home countries after serving time at Guantanamo Bay as terror suspects have alleged Quran desecration by U.S. guards, and some have said a Quran was placed in a toilet. "I'd like you to know that we have found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task Force at Guantanamo Bay ever flushed a Quran down a toilet," Hood said. "We did identify 13 incidents of alleged mishandling of the Quran by Joint Task Force personnel. Ten of those were by a guard and three by interrogators." Of the 13 alleged incidents, five were substantiated, he said. Four were by guards and one was by an interrogator. Hood said the five cases "could be broadly defined as mishandling" of the holy book, but he refused to discuss details. In three of the five cases, the mishandling appears to have been deliberate. In the other two, it apparently was accidental. Lawrence Di Rita, spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said at the news conference with Hood that at this point it should be clear that any mishandling of the Quran was largely inadvertent. "I think it's safe to say that the policies and procedures down there are extraordinarily careful, and they're — as I said — policies that we've released, and people can judge for themselves. But I think people will see that the atmosphere down there is one of great respect for the practice of faith by detainees," he said. In an indication of the Pentagon's eagerness to discredit the allegation, Hood briefed reporters on the interim findings of his investigation even though the Pentagon's standard practice is to withhold comment on the progress of any official investigation until it has been completed. Hood did not say how much longer his inquiry would last. Earlier Thursday he was on Capitol Hill to brief members of Congress. Hood said eight of the 13 alleged incidents of Quran mishandling that he looked into were not substantiated. Six of those eight involved guards who either accidentally touched a Quran, "touched it within the scope of his duties" or did not touch it at all. "We consider each of these incidents resolved," Hood said. The other two cases in which the allegation was not substantiated involved interrogators who either touched or "stood over" a Quran during an interrogation, Hood said. In one case not deemed to be mishandling, an interrogator placed two Qurans on a television. In the other case, which Hood did not describe fully, a Quran was not touched and Hood said the interrogator's unspecified "action" was accidental. Seems to me like this story acknowledged the 15 cases of detainee abuse of their own book. But let me guess, since it's not in the headline or lead paragraph, it's liberal bias?
__________________
I hope life isn't a joke, because I don't get it |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#114 | |||
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
Quote:
![]() Quote:
Let's not forget what started this whole thing: Quote:
Yet, people are saying how the military (esp high ups) are covering up abuses against the Koran and letting everyone get away scott free. It appears that just the opposite has happened as despite the initial claims being baseless and malicious against the military, the "high ups" have sanctioned a full investigation on all activities involving the Koran and may very well hand out punishments on the three still in question if the evidence merits that action. I wonder how all those criticizing the military would have had them act instead? Perhaps they should have summarily arrested random guards fingered by these prisoners (whom we now know were lying)... The US military took a black eye for something that never happened. Then, after finding out it never happened, they continued to probe for any possible infraction and found three possible ones out of the thousands of interrogations done - with those three still potentially not violating US military rules. But, if they did, the military has stated appropriate actions will be taken to discipline those involved. This definately looks like a corrupt administration in action given what we know - don't you think? ![]() Last edited by Arles : 06-05-2005 at 01:32 AM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#115 | ||
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
What, you think I'm being sarcastic? Why do you hate America? |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#116 | ||
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
Quote:
Abu Ghraib was a bad experience and one many have been punished for. But you cannot simply hide behind this everytime the media cries wolf on the Military and a sheep comes crowling around the corner. If you want to keep after the military for acts in Abu Ghraib and other sites, have at it. I will read with interest looking for more information and weighing both sides. But don't get all worked up because someone calls out baseless slander against the military in one case - just because you may feel there are other actions that haven't been investigated to your satisfaction. It seems as if you feel any trumped up charge against the military on any issue is OK because of your disdain for the military in regards to other issues that have not been fully disclosed. Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
High School JV
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco
|
Arles
First off, I'll post that damn story again if you push my buttons ![]() Second off, all I've ever wanted was the soldiers responsible for the desecrations held accountable for violating the code of conduct set forth by the military as it pertains to holding the Koran. That's not too much to ask, is it? And a senior Defense official saw the Newsweek story 11 days before it ran and was asked if it was accurate or not. He didn't say anything about the Koran flushing incident. Only after it was linked to protests in Afghanistan did the administration denounce it. That's quite shocking to me that they showed it to anyone in the government before it ran, yet they did. The writer was burned by his source, and he subsequently recanted. What more steps were they to take?
__________________
I hope life isn't a joke, because I don't get it |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#118 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
I agree. Should we start with the guy who set it on top of a T.V.? Or just jump right in on the guy who stood next to one? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#119 | |||
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#120 | |||||||
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You can't act as if releasing a retraction weeks after plastering a story on how US soldiers are desecrating and destroying the Koran is somehow "no biggie". These actions impact the treatment and respect our military men and women get worldwide. We have a military deployment of hundreds of thousands of troops spread out througout the globe. Even if you go to the biggest lefty loon blog, you will find only a handful documented cases of abuse and even fewer that resulted in the death of a prisoner. Yet, some blanked the entire military with the acts of these few - even when most are being investigated or punished. If you want to spearhead or continue to champion investigations/accountability to those shown to be involved in these illegal acts, I think that's great. But don't tell me that because 0.01% may have done something wrong on a few other cases that it's OK to blanket the entire military with this "goon" tag and slander the military on any unsubstantiated claim that's out there. That's about as valid as me finding 5 plumbers that committed murder and using those 5 guys to slander every other plumber in the US. Last edited by Arles : 06-05-2005 at 11:52 AM. |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#121 | |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
Yeah, I tend to be a bit more concerned about things like these than anything having to do with a Koran: - U.S. takes hostages to coerce relatives into surrendering - Guantanamo prisoner claims to have suffered violent sexual assaults and near drowning during his captivity. - Guantanamo prisoner claims that Gitmo tapes would be as explosive as the Abu Ghraib photos - Guantanamo prisoner claims innocence, details physical mistreatment - Guantanamo prisoner claims prisoners were handcuffed naked and attacked by dogs - 15-year-old Guantanamo detainee claims abuse - Pentagon inquiry confirms use of sexual tactics in interrogations - Military lawyers at Gitmo try and fail to end physical abuse of prisoners. - Afghan prisoner, left exposed to the elements by the CIA freezes to death. - Gitmo prisoner claims torture, assault, near-suffocation - Mother Jones story details many claims of torture at hands of U.S. - Navy disgusted by abusive treatment at Gitmo. - Terror prisoners claim to have been beaten and abused at New York's Metropolitan Detention Center. - Iraqi prisoner hung from the wrists until dead (Abu Ghraib related) Unfortunately this Koran thing has been a pretty successful diversionary tactic, so we can all whine and bitch about the biased, anti-military, anti-American press instead of wondering how all this 'gulag of our times' stuff is going to play in terms of our larger objectives in the war on terror, and wondering what in the hell we think we're gaining by conducting ourselves this way that is going to balance the serious damage that we're inflicting on ourselves in the PR war. ...not to mention wondering whether this sort of conduct can be squared with our values of liberty, justice, human dignity, and the 'culture of life'. Last edited by -Mojo Jojo- : 06-05-2005 at 11:53 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#122 |
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
And how many of those above listed do you know have not been investigated by the military?
I also find it interesting that many on the left look at all the detainees and terrorists held by the US as "innocent until proven guilty". Yet, when a military member is the one being accused by the detainee, he should be looked at as "guilty until proven innocent". There are bad people and idiots in small numbers in the military just like there are in every walk of life. All the military can do is try to weed them out and investigate each claim. But, just because the investigation doesn't reach your preferred resolution does not mean it was swept under the rug or not taken seriously. Detainees can run to their lawyers and make any charge they see fit and it will be printed all over the news. Yet, the results of the investigation that the detainee is involved in doesn't always get that same coverage and sometimes all aspects are not allowed to be released publically for security reasons (ie, classified). Last edited by Arles : 06-05-2005 at 12:04 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#123 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
It is clear that you are an apologist with no sense of objectivity, but if you believe this last paragraph then you have left reality entirely. "Detainees can run to their lawyers and make any charge they see fit and it will be printed all over the news?" Are you serious? Where the hell did you get this? Detainees have almost no access to lawyers. They have pretty much zero privacy in access to lawyers. Lawyers are now criminally liable for engaging in leaks as you describe. I mean seriously, WTF? The allegations that have come out have been ALMOST ENTIRELY by freed detainees and sources within the U.S. military. And then to say the coverage is overwhelmingly pro-detainee? Have you noticed that EVERY single statement by the Bush administration gets replayed over and over and over. I mean Cheney actually said he was "offended" by reports of human rights abuses. Maybe he missed the 25+ confirmed murders of detainees and over 100 deaths in suspicious circumstances. Here is an entry from a very conservative blog condemning the administration: http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=1878 It is rational and well thought out, but I'm quite sure you will agree with the morons in the comments section.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#124 | ||||
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Arles : 06-05-2005 at 12:35 PM. |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#125 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Quote:
That's funny. You're using a libertarian blog to make your point? I hate to break it to you, but comparing conservatives with libertarians is like comparing Naderites with modern progressives. Of course they are going to make such an argument because they believe in isolationism. The only way to achieve that is to convince those their policy is the correct solution is to handcuff the military from doing their actual jobs of winning wars (not the torture of detainees). They hope that people get fed up with the currrent ideology that we revert back to 1939.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#126 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
While I agree with you generally and should have been more accurate in my label, I think the difference isn't important in this case. A lot (if not most right-wing) libertarians have been Hawkish on the Iraq war. It is not filled with isolationists. As for reverting to 1939, huh?
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#127 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
"Certainly seems?" Arles, stop reading the second hand rags and actually read the articles. The reports are from whistleblowers and freed detainees. Remember, the freed ones didn't actually do anything wrong. And read the blog I wrote. Their is punishment and it is a joke. Soldiers have been given "reprimands" as punishment for "murder." Quote:
Source? I read CNN, Foxnews, and MSNBC and didn't see Cheney getting anything but his views made. Quote:
Read the freakin' blog. It goes through all of the individual instances of suspicious deaths (not even run-of-the-mill torture). And we have already seen what your "punishment for those involved" means. For you, it means never punishment anyone above the rank of sergeant.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#128 | |||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Duckman: What the hell? If you criticize torture you love Hitler?
From the blog entry: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
These guys are very much in favor of the War on Terror, and I'd recommend you read the response to critics like yourself. Situational Ethics and the Argument for Torture |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#129 | ||||||||
Grey Dog Software
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...w113007S95.DTL Out of these 21 total, 6 are still under investigation by the army - so we don't know what will happen. That leaves 15: Quote:
Again, I don't see any rampant cover ups or in-proper investigations here. It seems like they are looking into each of these cases and in the ones that have been resolved, many have involved serious penalties from court marshalls to multi-year sentences. Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/in...5b7361&ei=5070 Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After reading all this information, it appears that the Military is taken each of these cases seriously and punishing those shown to be in violation (most by significantly more than a reprimand). Last edited by Arles : 06-05-2005 at 01:33 PM. |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#130 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Quote:
No, I was making a reference to America be an isolationist country in 1939. Nothing more.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#131 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Quote:
Really? Somebody needs to read the Libertarian Party platform. I've been to a couple of their meetings here in Oklahoma. All they talk about is how we need to revert back to isolationist America (circa 1939).
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#132 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Arles:
Quote:
Here's some examples of why it is a problem with senior leaders and not 21 bad apples as you would believe. 1) The US regularly denies access to prisoners by Red Cross. 2) According to the Taguba Report the US has on more than one occasion moved prisoners around to hide them from the Red Cross. 3) A documented agreement betewwn CIA and Military intelligence to keep some prisoners without information so that they were invisible to outside eyes. 4) In Afghanistan a prison where the, ""purpose is to hold suspected terrorists or insurgents for interrogation and safekeeping while avoiding U.S. or international court systems, where proceedings and evidence against the accused would be aired in public. Some are even held by foreign governments at the informal request of the United States". 5) In Guanatanamo we had interrogations, "rigged to fool the visiting VIPs." 6) An official memo stating, ''As a matter of policy, the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva.'' (note the out clause) 7) Another government saying, ''Any effort to apply Section 2340A in a manner that interferes with the president's direction of such core war matters as the detention and interrogation of enemy combatants thus would be unconstitutional.'' (so there is no law that can be broken by the President?) 8) The General in charge at Guantanamo was transferred to Iraq and the interrogation techniques "migrated" with him. 9) This from a Red Cross report, ''Several military intelligence officers confirmed to the I.C.R.C. that it was part of the military intelligence process to hold a person deprived of his liberty naked in a completely dark and empty cell for a prolonged period to use inhumane and degrading treatment, including physical and psychological coercion.' 10) An email from a military intelligence caption saying, ''The gloves are coming off gentlemen regarding these detainees, Col. Boltz has made it clear that we want these individuals broken.'' 11) A guard at Abu Ghraib saying, ''The M.I. staffs, to my understanding, have been giving Graner compliments on the way he has been handling the M.I. holds [prisoners held by military intelligence]. Example being statements like 'Good job, they're breaking down real fast'; 'They answer every question'; 'They're giving out good information, finally'; and 'Keep up the good work' - stuff like that.'' 12) Sandra Day O'conner in Hamdi v. US talking about the classification of enemy combatants, ''the government has never provided any court with the full criteria that it uses in classifying individuals'' 13) We continue to export prisoners to other countries that openly use torture. And in terms of punishment look at this from Andrew Sullivan, Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#133 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
Don't confuse libertarians with the libertarian party. A great many self-professed libertarians do not identify with most of the party's platform. You need only look at the libertarian blogs on the net (ie volokh.com) and the libertarian members of this board) to see that they are overwhelmingly pro-war. And as was pointed out, the blog in question is very much pro-war.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#134 | ||||||||
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Newsweek had what they thought was a credible source, showed it to the Pentagon who did not object, and then went to press with it as an aside in a story. If you can find something evil and/or anti-miltary there, you are searching too hard for something to hang the media with. |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#135 | |||||||||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
You are a dumbass. They are using an expression to prove a point that a good commander is ultimately responsible for the actions of their troops. They ARE NOT SAYING THERE ARE NO BAD TROOPS. And I notice how you completely ignore the statistical analysis of mistreatment. Given how little access there is to detainees and that similar incidents have occurred across the globe, are you really calling this a "fishing expedition?" Hell, you probably thought Rodney King deserved what he got. Even when the evidence is becoming overwhelming (despite the limited access to information), you stick your head in the sand. I can't even imagine a scenario where you would ever find Rumsfeld guilty of anything short of authenticated video of him ass-raping 10 Iraqi prisoners in a military gang-bang. Even the, I bet you would catch one of the detainees smirking and conclude they were asking for it. Quote:
Astounding is your intellect. Do you intentionally ignore all of the facts you don't like or is your brain incapable of even reading them? Quote:
Resolved? Years from now when this all comes to light, you will say, "Well that was in the past and we are much better now." It's a great system: Zero accountability and complete hero worship. Quote:
That is an anti-adminstration view? OMG, a journalist investigated all sides of the story and got expert opinions. What is the world coming to? Of course, all the front page stories I saw echoed the administration party line. God forbid, they actually do analysis when the story is breaking. Quote:
You looked at one source from a blog entry filled with documentation. Going to the cite that wasn't meant to prove that point is idiotic. Quote:
No. Unlike you, I believe in personal accountability and don't just use it as meaningless political rhetoric every 4 years. Rumsfeld has created an atmosphere where this was INEVITABLE. He gave intentionally non-specific guidelines that authorized conduct in violation of the Geneva Convention. He has also maintained the view that Convention does not apply. Of course, he is freakin' responsible just as any crime boss would be responsible for the conduct of underlings. It is basic agency theory under the law. Quote:
Quit making stuff up. These are detainees and the point of the blog is that WAY MORE should be investigated. When the military's description is akin to "died while gagged and bound during interrogation," you don't think there should be an investigation? Quote:
Why is that the right-wing seems to only understand conspiracy theories when it comes to being hard on crime? NO ONE IS ARGUING THERE IS A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY COVERUP. A conspiracy occurs when an agent commits conduct authorized or at least encouraged by a higher official within a conspiracy. And yeah, you keep believing in the whole freakin war there have only been 21 mistakes. I mean seriously. Quote:
You know a while back there was a discussion of whether someone wouldn't buy one of your games because of your politics. I thought the whole thing was silly. Buying a game is not helping your politics. However, I've decided that I will no longer buy one of your products not because of your politics, but because of your stupidity. I just don't feel I should subsidize somebody who has absolutely no intention to think for themselves. You are a total moron. You post things that at first I thought were mistaken, but now I can't help but believe they are intentionally dishonest to the board and to yourself. I hope you get help for your condition because stupidity is hard to live with.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#136 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
The fact that he was promoted to AG should be enough to see that the government doesn't take the charges seriously. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#137 | |||
High School Varsity
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
I'm not sure it matters whether or not they are being investigated by the military. a) I'm not sure I trust the military to resolve this problem. It seems clear from whistleblower reports and reports from respected human rights organizations (say whatever they want to say now, the Bush administration frequently cited Amnesty International in the runup to the Iraq war) that this is an ongoing problem. If Abu Ghraib wasn't enough of a wakeup call that military procedures need to be changed, what will be? Do we need an even more attrocious incident? At some point if the military refuses to effectively deal with this it becomes a fox guarding the henhouse affair with regards to the military investigating itself. b) A substantial element of my concern on this issue is about public perception (particularly among foreign publics). I frankly don't think Iraqis give a flying fuck whether the military has investigated these incidents. They don't trust the military anyway. The administration may be successful in tarring and feather Newsweek and Amnesty International for the domestic audience, but that shit isn't going to fly among foreign audiences. They're more critical and more cynical about the actions and motives of the U.S. government than you or I, and we need to be at the top of our game to win in that arena, and it is critical that we win. We need to clean up our act and bring in respected third-party monitors to prove we cleaned up our act, and military investigations don't accomplish anything in that regard. Quote:
On this you are entirely full of shit. It's apples and oranges. Did I convict someone? Am I sending someone to jail (or more approriately, am I indefinitely detaining someone without access to an attorney or the legal system)? Are we not allowed to discuss things here that haven't been verified in a court of law? My concern, to a large extent, is that we don't know what's going on there. We have released detainees making claims of abuse, we have military whistleblowers claiming abuse occurred, we have respected NGO's claiming abuse occurred. The military attempts to dismiss all of these claims by saying nobody has substantiated any of this. Of course, they restrict access to the sites and the military is the only entity that could substantiate these claims, and they have a vested interest in not doing so. I don't trust what the detainees say, but neither do I trust what the military says. When the Newsweek story broke, the Pentagon claimed they had never documented a case of abuse of the Koran. Days later that claim was demonstrated to be bullshit. Everybody has an angle to sell here. I think the whistleblowers are probably pretty credible. I think the NGO's are reasonably credible. Again, part of my interest in this is from a policy perspective. If my perception is that military can't be entirely trusted on this, what's the perception of people who trust the U.S. less (which describes 5+ billion people on this planet). We're looking like shit here. We're being stupid, and we're hurting ourselves. If we're going to go around righting the worlds' wrongs, we need to be purer than pure. "Better than Saddam" isn't nearly good enough. Quote:
You're in denial. What would it take for you to think that there may be policy choices at play in what is happening here? Or even if you refuse to believe that policy choices could have affected the frequency of these incidents, can you comprehend that policy choices in investigating and dealing with them carry impacts that affect international perceptions of the U.S., the U.S. military and the war on terror? Moreover, I don't agree with the implication that we shouldn't do anything about this except have a military investigation. There are a lot of things we could do that could both curtail the problem and score PR points. We could, with little difficulty, increase oversight of our detainment sites, both internally with military personnel as well as by groups like the Red Cross and Amnesty International. We can tighten up our interrogation guidelines. We can end extraordinary rendition and ghost detainment. We can set up a reasonable but secure and confidential process to give detainees the ability to challenge their detention and prove their innocence. We can redeclare our support for the Geneva Conventions. There are a lot of things we can do to fix this situation, and we're not doing any of it. It's purely stupid. Last edited by -Mojo Jojo- : 06-05-2005 at 04:34 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#138 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Ah yes, those fine folks who don't know that every detention center isn't a "gulag". Quote:
Well, at least we agree there's a lot of purely stupid things going on surrounding this subject. But we sure disagree on what those are.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 06-05-2005 at 04:52 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#139 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Where Hip Hop lives
|
Quote:
I read none of this thread, and I don't ever care to. I stopped getting in these silly pissing wars--it just isn't worth it. But I find it astounding eyeballing John's responses here just how personally insulting he is to Arles, and the only thing I can see Arles doing is disagreeing with him. I thought you were better than that, John.
__________________
. . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#140 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Quote:
This has been John's MO since he's returned to the board. A John Galt he is not.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#141 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
No, I'm not. After years of taking personal assault after personal assault on this board with nary an apology (save one), I decided that I was no longer going to take the high ground with those that personally attack me or who outright lie. In this case, Arles has built up a little history with me in the last couple threads and I have decided enough is enough. Without knowing that history (and maybe even with knowing it), my reactions probably seem a little asymmetrical. I'm sure it makes my arguments less persuasive and ultimately detracts from any message I may have. I guess I just stopped caring after the 1000th or so personal attack on me. And, honestly, it makes me feel a little better to vent for a while, because so many crappy things have been said about me on this board and I got tired of swallowing it. And even more, this probably has to do with stuff in my non-FOFC life where, for the first time in life, I'm learning that is ok to be angry. So far, the only people I think I've gone ape-shit at have been Arles, Dutch (because of his attacks that led me to leave in the first place), and Schmidty (because he just decided to personally attack me out of the blue in a politics thread). But thanks for the compliment in hindsight (even though I've now ruined it).
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude Last edited by John Galt : 06-05-2005 at 06:30 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#142 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
True on both counts.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#143 | |||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Quote:
No one can accuse me of not paying attention (today). ![]()
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#144 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
True enough. ![]()
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#145 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|