Racism

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Subby

I was prepared to be all irate and wound up about what O'Neal was going to say, but this quote......sure makes you think.

Actually, what it makes me think, is why did he bring up race and ruin a perfectly good argument against the age limit.

[Warhammer]

My .02...

First, O'Neal should be smacked around for calling this racism. This is nothing of the sort.

Second, this is a business decision by Stern to try and bring back viewers that are leaving. He wants to bring back the days of huge growth in league viewership that he had in the 80s.

Third, this helps make the NBDL a legitimate minor league. This works two ways, 1) you can teach the kids how to use their money and how to handle the lifestyle. 2) They can teach the players how to play fundamental basketball.

I challenge anyone to go back and watch some 80s basketball. The offenses were amazing! If you left someone open from 10-15 feet, they would knock down the open shot. Today, players are either dunking or hitting 3s. Who are the stars? Those that play fundamental ball and can hit the midrange jumper.

[wishbone]

Screw the age limit, the worst thing about the NBA is guaranteed money. Allow teams to get rid of players and the "quality of the game" will work itself out. How much dead money do teams have? Look at Portland; what a nightmare...

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Stern wants the days of Magic, MJ and Bird back - he wants guys who are great players and also are mature, intelligent, well spoken people who can promote the game to the world like Magic, MJ, Dr J, Isaiah and Bird all did. He doesn't want kids who are lucky to spell their own name being the representatives of his league.

Something about this quote bothers me. While I sort of understand what you are saying, I don't understand how a college education make you a better spokesman than someone who doesn't. Baseball has a number of representatives without a college education who have represented the game well. And Kevin Garnett seems to do a good job representing the game at this point. I hope I didn't misrepresent this paragraph, but this is what I am reading from this statement.

[Desnudo]

Lebron seems like a an excellent representative of the game.

[rexallllsc]

I think people are under the assumption that a lot of these guys, once they're in school, start caring about school. Does anyone think that college made Allen Iverson less of a character? Or that Kevin Garnett not going to college makes him dumber? Did Stephon Marbury learn anything @ GaTech?

I don't get it because what, 5 or 6 HS kids get drafted every year? A handful of college Frosh?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I think people are under the assumption that a lot of these guys, once they're in school, start caring about school. Does anyone think that college made Allen Iverson less of a character? Or that Kevin Garnett not going to college makes him dumber? Did Stephon Marbury learn anything @ GaTech?

Yeah, and Iverson went to ivy-caliber Georgetown...

That's a good point- being enrolled in college doesn't necessarily mean you are going to learn anything there. Hell, there are a lot of college graduates I know who really didn't learn anything more than how to party...

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Yeah, and Iverson went to ivy-caliber Georgetown...

That's a good point- being enrolled in college doesn't necessarily mean you are going to learn anything there. Hell, there are a lot of college graduates I know who really didn't learn anything more than how to party...

Right. So if the NBA is going to make this age-limit, they better expand the NBDL, and make about 6 more rounds of the draft...at which point we'd be seeing even MORE HS players go pro.

[Klinglerware]

And don't forget, the NCAA is also cracking down on academic performance. I would venture to guess that there will be a lot more college coaches who will think twice about offering scholarships to players who are academic risks or are likely to jump ship after a year or two.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

And don't forget, the NCAA is also cracking down on academic performance.

hahahahahahaha

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

hahahahahahaha

The APR system apparently has teeth--if you can't keep your players eligible, if you can't graduate them, and if they leave school without graduating, you lose scholarships and playoff participation. A very controversial key component of the formula is players leaving school--you are penalized if your player leaves for the pros, even if he was still academically on track. This is why it's possible that schools may start staying away from the "one year and out" players--no matter how well they do in school, the team will incur a hit in their APR once they leave the program...

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

My .02...

First, O'Neal should be smacked around for calling this racism. This is nothing of the sort.

Yes and no. I agree that the idea of an age-limit is not a racist idea. I do however see why he would think that the public reaction to the issue might be impacted by racism. People are most riled up about athletes turning professional before finishing (or even starting) college in two sports: basketball and football. Those two sports happen to have among the largest percentage of African-American participation at the professional level. The public doesn't seem to care about baseball, hockey, soccer, and olympic athletes who do likewise.

It may or may not be a racial issue. But when people are strangely silent when it comes to athletes in other sports who chose to forgo college or the influx of european basketball stars who didn't have a college basketball system either, I can see why O'Neil can be left to wonder.

[Galaxy]

What would an age limit due to the international players? These guys are pretty developed, spending the previous few years playing pro ball.

Here is an artcle from Mark Cuban: http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/6832728850549251/

[Galaxy]

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros? I hate the whole, "you can join the military, ect." Does he know that you have the choice to join the military. Please let me know when a NBA player decides to give up the basketball and millions to join the military. So, because someone can join the military, we should make them nurses, doctors, ect?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros?

But minor league hockey and baseball players are professionals. They are obviously not paid as well as the players in the top league, but they are being paid to ply their craft.

It's true that most hockey and baseball players do not reach the top league right away, but it does happen once in awhile. Also, there are a few teenagers who play professional/world cup level soccer. All these players have the opportunity to play professionally if they are good enough... I don't see why this opportunity should be restricted for basketball players who are good enough.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Dola...
I hate the whole, "you can join the military, ect." Does he know that you have the choice to join the military. Please let me know when a NBA player decides to give up the basketball and millions to join the military.

O'neal's argument is that if at 18 you have the choice to join the military and kill/be killed, fight a war... then you should also be able to choose to take your wares into the draft without a college education, and have the chance to earn money and play ball.

So, because someone can join the military, we should make them nurses, doctors, ect?

Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Something about this quote bothers me. While I sort of understand what you are saying, I don't understand how a college education make you a better spokesman than someone who doesn't. Baseball has a number of representatives without a college education who have represented the game well. And Kevin Garnett seems to do a good job representing the game at this point. I hope I didn't misrepresent this paragraph, but this is what I am reading from this statement.

Its not that players who go to college are smarter and players who jump from hs are dumber - Im sure you could easily round up people who never went to college yet are smarter than people who did. What going to college does is expose these guys to the pressures of the media, the fame, the PR - everything but the money (except for the illegal money players get - yeah, shocking, right?). These are skills Stern does not want to waste time and money teaching when there's already a perfectly good system in place for that.

You're right, Garnett is an excellent representative of the game - which is why I mentioned him earlier in this thread of being just that. It took him a few years to develop that persona though. LeBron is the ultimate exception - what about a guy like Kwame Brown. What if he spends two years at Florida a) getting to play and b) playing in the national spotlight? Maybe he's ready to play and be the face of a franchise when he's drafted #1 two years later instead of being nothing but a dissapointment in his rookie year and then of course overshadowed by Jordan's return in his second year. Instead, four years later, he's just now starting to show signs of progress but you don't hear any buzz about him anymore - to Stern that's one more marketable player down the drain.

What you have to remember about Stern and the NBA is that he built the NBA on individual players (which also caused team basketball to cease to exist for the most part). The other major sports do not market individuals as heavily as the NBA does so Stern needs players in his league that are not only phenomenal talents but also have maturity, intellect and carry themselves well with the media. Marbury was brought up in an above post - look at the marketing effort the league puts out on his behalf...very little if any - and he plays in one of the top two markets in the league. Its even true with Iverson - the only reason he gets any pub from the league is because he's impossible to ignore not only because of his off court antics but he's just a phenomenal player who's an MVP candidate. Still he doesn't get anywhere near the face time that guys like Garnett, James and Duncan do because he doesn't have the image Stern wants.

The height of the NBA's popularity came when Stern had stars who were not only amazing talents but also appeared to be very warm, friendly, well spoken media darlings. There's the old saying you only get one chance to make a first impression - these kids from high school 99% of the time are not ready for the media, the hype, the PR - if they're going to screw up and learn how to deal with it I am willing to bet Stern would much rather they learn that skill in college and be ready to be used as a marketing tool for the NBA when they are drafted. LeBron is a massive exception because he dealt with all the media stuff in his JR and SR years of high school. Look at the amount of press Carmello got in his rookie year - it was all LeBron and Melo...now its just LeBron because Melo spent his summer whining about the USA basketball team and spent the start of the season whining about the Nuggets and their former coach. And look who took his place in the spotlight - Dwayne Wade - a guy who spent some time in college and appears to be a very mature individual with great game - exactly what Stern looks for in making his next league superstar.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.

Being a doctor doesn't require a college education naturally. It is a restriction imposed by the body that governs the licensing of doctors. If they didn't do that, theoretically anyone with a library card could get a license if they tried... I don't see how making college a pre-requisite for the NBA would be any different for the NBA.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Its not that players who go to college are smarter and players who jump from hs are dumber - Im sure you could easily round up people who never went to college yet are smarter than people who did. What going to college does is expose these guys to the pressures of the media, the fame, the PR - everything but the money (except for the illegal money players get - yeah, shocking, right?). These are skills Stern does not want to waste time and money teaching when there's already a perfectly good system in place for that.

You're right, Garnett is an excellent representative of the game - which is why I mentioned him earlier in this thread of being just that. It took him a few years to develop that persona though. LeBron is the ultimate exception - what about a guy like Kwame Brown. What if he spends two years at Florida a) getting to play and b) playing in the national spotlight? Maybe he's ready to play and be the face of a franchise when he's drafted #1 two years later instead of being nothing but a dissapointment in his rookie year and then of course overshadowed by Jordan's return in his second year. Instead, four years later, he's just now starting to show signs of progress but you don't hear any buzz about him anymore - to Stern that's one more marketable player down the drain.

What you have to remember about Stern and the NBA is that he built the NBA on individual players (which also caused team basketball to cease to exist for the most part). The other major sports do not market individuals as heavily as the NBA does so Stern needs players in his league that are not only phenomenal talents but also have maturity, intellect and carry themselves well with the media. Marbury was brought up in an above post - look at the marketing effort the league puts out on his behalf...very little if any - and he plays in one of the top two markets in the league. Its even true with Iverson - the only reason he gets any pub from the league is because he's impossible to ignore not only because of his off court antics but he's just a phenomenal player who's an MVP candidate. Still he doesn't get anywhere near the face time that guys like Garnett, James and Duncan do because he doesn't have the image Stern wants.

The height of the NBA's popularity came when Stern had stars who were not only amazing talents but also appeared to be very warm, friendly, well spoken media darlings. There's the old saying you only get one chance to make a first impression - these kids from high school 99% of the time are not ready for the media, the hype, the PR - if they're going to screw up and learn how to deal with it I am willing to bet Stern would much rather they learn that skill in college and be ready to be used as a marketing tool for the NBA when they are drafted. LeBron is a massive exception because he dealt with all the media stuff in his JR and SR years of high school. Look at the amount of press Carmello got in his rookie year - it was all LeBron and Melo...now its just LeBron because Melo spent his summer whining about the USA basketball team and spent the start of the season whining about the Nuggets and their former coach. And look who took his place in the spotlight - Dwayne Wade - a guy who spent some time in college and appears to be a very mature individual with great game - exactly what Stern looks for in making his next league superstar.

The argument is then, that these people need more "polish" and that college would give them that. But is it college's job to do that? Uh, look at Iverson. He's not marketable for the NBA, but that doesn't seem to stop Reebok from using him.

So he's not the most socially graceful and maybe some of these kids - millionaire kids - aren't the brightest. So what.

If the league is so concerned with their "image" or "development," they could surely hire people to work with them in the off-season or as part of a mandatory rookie program (they already have one, but a better one) that discussing speaking skills, hiring them consultants and personal tutors to help them out if necessary.

But no one worries about that. It's all about David Stern, his billionaire, deep pocketed owners and such alike.

And why are the Europeans any better? They're not. You mean to tell me that Darko - who was a pro from a young age - would not have benefitted from being the "man" in college? Of course he would've. But he had a family he wanted to help and coming here did that. I think no one ought to prevent these kids from doing that.

Hell, even in the service or whatever - you pay your dues, train, learn your job and eventually, you're called on to step up. It's no different in sports.

An interesting parallel to this argument is Michelle Wie, the golfing prodigy. People are criticizing her hard for playing tons of pro tournaments, via sponsors exemptions, rather than playing the junior golf circuit. When she does play the junior golf circuit, she loses matches.

They say that she ought to play more with people who own age to learn how to win. Tiger said it was critical for him and his development.

But I think Michelle Wie is even further along in her development than say, Tiger was at his age. She's not a comparison that we can parallel. To say she ought to go to college or play with her own peers because "it'd be better," seems completely short-sighted to me.

What she ought to do - and high schoolers too - is be smart, seek out good advice and do what they think is best for their future. And if that means, playing in the professional game at a young age, then so be it. If they turn out not to be as successful as they might have been in college - that's the risk they take.

But I think it's a choice that they get to make. And no one ought to make it for them. Especially when in the NBA, it's proven that high school players can develop into stars and talented contributors.

As for the NBDL, that's a different issue that I guess I can understand making it a "real" minor league, but...that seems to be a separate issue to actually preventing players from going to the majors.

In other sports, players - if they're talented enough - go straight to the majors. If anything, a minor league might encourage more players to come out straight from high school, which of course, would improve the NBDL since it's mostly washed up players now.

But a limit seems ill advised and I don't see it getting passed.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The argument is then, that these people need more "polish" and that college would give them that.

Wow, do they teach Polish in college? I didn't know that.

(sorry, in a silly mood, and, hell, this is a thread on racism!)

[Abe Sargent]

As a professional who works in a collegiate residence hall, I chastise my staff for calling residents "boys" "girls" or "kids." I think its really pejorative to call someone legally an adult a "kid." Someone who has graduated from HS and is 18 years of age is NOT a kid. Someone in college, at least 18, is NOT a kid. Period. It's thinking like that that is the worst thing in this argument, not which side is right or wrong.

-Anxiety

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros?

Wow, someone should tell this to Ilya Kovalchuk, all those goals scored as a teenager should be wiped out.

And how dare Wayne Gretzy put up 250 points before his 20th birthday. Give them back!

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

Wow, someone should tell this to Ilya Kovalchuk, all those goals scored as a teenager should be wiped out.

And how dare Wayne Gretzy put up 250 points before his 20th birthday. Give them back!

Hey Hey- what the hell are you trying to do, introduce facts into this discussion ?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

O'neal's argument is that if at 18 you have the choice to join the military and kill/be killed, fight a war... then you should also be able to choose to take your wares into the draft without a college education, and have the chance to earn money and play ball.



Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.

I hear you. I am just hate it when people use that whole military argument if need to go for the kill. But to join the military, you need to be of a certain physcial shape and mental capacity. Also, it's a choice.

As for every one good high school player, you have thousands of more. And usually, it takes those high school players to develop a few years. I'm not against an age limit, personally, because the international players are pretty developed at that age. Just they are experienced to the pro level, and much more developed. I think they should get rid of the guaranteed contracts. Also, in baseball, you do not have to declare for the draft. You are drafted, and that team holds your rights for a year.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I hear you. I am just hate it when people use that whole military argument if need to go for the kill. But to join the military, you need to be of a certain physcial shape and mental capacity. Also, it's a choice.

As for every one good high school player, you have thousands of more. And usually, it takes those high school players to develop a few years. I'm not against an age limit, personally, because the international players are pretty developed at that age. Just they are experienced to the pro level, and much more developed. I think they should get rid of the guaranteed contracts. Also, in baseball, you do not have to declare for the draft. You are drafted, and that team holds your rights for a year.

I'm still wondering why American high school basketball players should be barred from playing professionally upon completion of high school when athletes from no other sport (save football) have this restriction. Young basketball players from abroad do not have this restriction.

The NBA scouting system does not operate in the dark--if a high school player who declares is good enough, he will get drafted. If not, he won't. If the NBA team is drafting on a player's potential--that's their business and I don't see the problem of letting the marketplace decide who deserves to be an NBA player.

If the problem is that a player, once declared, forfeits his amateur status then perhaps the NBA should go to the MLB system where college eligibility is not forfeited until a contract is actually signed...

[rexallllsc]

Last 5 NBA ROY:
1999-00 - Elton Brand, Chicago (tie), Steve Francis, Houston
2000-01 - Mike Miller, Orlando
2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis
2002-03 - Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix
2003-04 - LeBron James, Cleveland

3 of them never played college ball. The two most recent came directly from HS, and are two of the brightest stars in the NBA.

Just sayin

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

If the problem is that a player, once declared, forfeits his amateur status then perhaps the NBA should go to the MLB system where college eligibility is not forfeited until a contract is actually signed...

I would like to see this change. Actually, in hockey, a player can be drafted and still play several years of college.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis

Also drafted before and after him :

1. Kwame Brown
2. Tyson Chandler
4. Eddy Curry
8. Sagana Diop

1 has been a complete bust, two are extremely average and Curry has decent PPG numbers but is certainly not the next great post player in the NBA.

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I'm still wondering why American high school basketball players should be barred from playing professionally upon completion of high school when athletes from no other sport (save football) have this restriction. Young basketball players from abroad do not have this restriction.

Barred professionally? You mean they wouldn't be able to play in the CBA or go overseas if they don't go to college either? Barred from the biggest and best professional league, yes - barred professionally, no.

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

The NBA scouting system does not operate in the dark--if a high school player who declares is good enough, he will get drafted. If not, he won't. If the NBA team is drafting on a player's potential--that's their business and I don't see the problem of letting the marketplace decide who deserves to be an NBA player.

One problem is that its becoming an expensive marketplace for the teams not to mention watering down the play of the league. Teams that were once 9-10 deep now go 7-8 deep cause 3 spots are filled by kids who have tons of potential yet are not ready for the NBA. Those kids are being paid millions to be developed and in the process are gaining "bird years" meaning that if a team does spend 5-15 million over 3-4 years developing a player to the point where he's finally ready to contribute then they're looking at a player eligible for the league maximum for his experience level as opposed to drafting him at that point and getting to start him on the rookie scale then.

Just out of curiosity, do you think the NFL should not have an age limit since its barring kids from playing in the biggest professional football league in the world?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

But the same can be said for most people drafted, regardless of the age at which they were drafted.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

But the same can be said for most people drafted, regardless of the age at which they were drafted.

Very true - so if we already have a large pool of those players, some of which have their college degrees and most of which at least have some college credits under their belt so they could get a degree then why add more people to that pool? Would LeBron or Amare not have been drafted when they hit 20? The talent is still going to get to the league and the ones who aren't going to make it still aren't going to make it - but at least they could have some paid education to show for it instead of nothing at all.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Just out of curiosity, do you think the NFL should not have an age limit since its barring kids from playing in the biggest professional football league in the world?

Yes. They should get rid of any overt age limit--again let the marketplace decide. If an NFL team wants to roll the dice and risk a draft pick on a player not ready for prime time, that should be their prerogative. I doubt that many teams would do so...

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Also drafted before and after him :

1. Kwame Brown
2. Tyson Chandler
4. Eddy Curry
8. Sagana Diop

1 has been a complete bust, two are extremely average and Curry has decent PPG numbers but is certainly not the next great post player in the NBA.

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

I'll take Curry and Chandler on my team.

Brown is a bust, yeah. So was Ed O'Bannon. A 4-year college player who was an All-American, title game MVP, Pac-10 MVP, one of the few players to have his # retired at Ucla (others: 25 Gail Goodrich, 32 Bill Walton, 33 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Lew Alcindor), 35 Sidney Wicks, 42 Walt Hazzard and 54 Marques Johnson). He scored 30 and 17 in the NCAA title game. A truly dominant player. Sucked in the NBA.

You can find just as many really good 4 year college players who are no good as you can HS kids who declare. Hell, looking over the list at kids who have gone pro from HS over the last few years, you're just as likely to find a good players as if you drafted a college guy.

[Loki]

A developmental league (or minor league) for the NBA would fix all these problems.

[Crapshoot]

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

My thoughts exactly on both issues. As for the race issue, whether it is a real phenomenon or not, O'Neal is raising an interesting observation on an issue that directly affects his livelihood. It is unfortunate that his detractors are lambasting O'Neal for playing a "race card", when it would be more instructive for them to actually try to factually refute what O'Neal is saying.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

And you act like you know better by stating your opinion... don't take try and take the high road when there isn't one. Your still missing the point that there is no minor league in football or basketball. There's no where for them to go. Obviously if there was, this would be a pointless conversation. Darko Milicic is white... he's been a bust so far. What has Nikoloz Tskitishvili done so far? 4 foreigners under 20 were drafted in 2003. Andris Biedrins and Pavel Podkolzine, have they played yet? Its not just a racial thing. There's plenty of white guys coming over from Europe who would get cut out. But they don't come over because they aren't ready and need time to develop. There's pro leagues here in the states guys could play in if they wanted to go pro before 20. They're probably as good as some of the pro leagues in Europe... heck these guys could go to Europe if they wanted to go pro so badly. Its not like their only option is college or bust.

The point of the cap is to save owners from eachother. This isn't like a normal market, where people can just be poached from other organizations at a whim. Guys are locked up or 4 years in the NBA. There's no reason right now not to draft an 18 year old on the chance he'll break out, because you'll have him the next 4 years. If you don't someone else will (and if they all don't, then its labeled coersion). Its just a smart business sense to implement a rule in the market to safe the market from itself. And if you can get the workers to go along (the union, which wants to protect its own), then its even better. Why shell out millions to develop talent (through a minor league or guaranteed contracts), when there's other people who are willing to do it for you.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

You can find just as many really good 4 year college players who are no good as you can HS kids who declare. Hell, looking over the list at kids who have gone pro from HS over the last few years, you're just as likely to find a good players as if you drafted a college guy.

Yup, in fact because of the numbers you can find alot more 4 year college players who are just as bad as some of the HS kids who declare - the difference is the 4 year college guy who doesn't make it goes and finds a job paying him maybe 30-40k a year since he has a degree while the hs kid who didn't make it has what? That's not to say that because you don't have a college education you won't amount to anything but its sure going to be a lot more difficult road to travel in most cases. It's also kind of pointless to argue using 4 year college players - what Stern wants is the age limit of 20 so they wouldn't have to attend four years, just two. Very rarely now are you going to find a 4 year college player that is anything special - if he's an elite talent he's in the draft by age 21 in almost all cases.

I'm not making the argument that HS kids can't play in the NBA - if I was drafting a team I'd take LeBron over anyone else in the NBA today because he's so good and just a kid still. But I am in favor of some measure of restriction being taken both to prevent kids from skipping college on a hope and prayer that they get drafted and also because I'm tired of seeing crappy basketball in the NBA. How good could guys like O'Neal, Kwame Brown, Chandler and others have been if they would have spent even one year in college instead of just being thrown right into the fire? How much better could Milicic be getting if he actually was playing rather than sitting on his ass for two years?

We're supposed to be watching the premier basketball players in the world playing here - instead we're getting teams flooded with players that might be good enough to play at that level some day and yet are already taking up a roster spot and paycheck at that level.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

Explain how there is racism at work here. Does Stern's proposal say that only 18 and 19 year old black players from poor neighborhoods will be denied entry into the draft? It's ANYONE under 20 - no matter what color your skin is or what side of town you come from. Will it affect more black players than white? Of course it will simply because the number of talented black players FAR outweighs the number of white players. Are you suggesting that if 70% of the league was white that this would not be an issue? That's bull. What's next - an argument that nobody was trying to drop an age restriction 50 years ago when the league was mostly white?

You know why its not an issue in baseball and hockey? Because there's a minor league system where teams stick these guys, pay them peanuts and hope they develop and if not, no big deal. In the NBA you draft one of these guys in round 1 and you are stuck with his guaranteed salary for the next 3 years and there is no way in hell the union is going to give up guaranteed salaries when bargaining. This being a racial issue is bull - you do realize that the highest paid players in the league are black. That roughly 70% of the league is black. That the most heavily promoted players are black. That the rule would apply to everyone. That these black players would be able to enter the league and make their millions when they are 20 the same as anyone else.

If the rule is setup to be that you have to attend two years of college before entering the draft then I could see possible racism if there's an issue with ability to pass exams to enter college but its not - its simply age. If they don't want to or don't qualify to go to college they can play ball somewhere else (and get paid) for two years and then enter the draft. It's wrong to restrict a person's ability to work - if there was nowhere else to play ball that might be one thing but there are plenty of other leagues that pay players - all that is being restricted (and temporarily at that) is entry into the best paying job not any paying job.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Yup, in fact because of the numbers you can find alot more 4 year college players who are just as bad as some of the HS kids who declare - the difference is the 4 year college guy who doesn't make it goes and finds a job paying him maybe 30-40k a year since he has a degree while the hs kid who didn't make it has what?

Yeah, maybe. But shouldn't that be the kids choice? Are we forcing people to go to college now? Not to mention, if a kid is good enough to get drafted, I don't think a 30-40k/year job is really going to matter. Even if he gets cut he can go overseas and make money.

Let's not even factor in some of the athletes I know who went to 4 year schools, graduated, and can't hold a 35k/year job.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Yeah, maybe. But shouldn't that be the kids choice? Are we forcing people to go to college now? Not to mention, if a kid is good enough to get drafted, I don't think a 30-40k/year job is really going to matter. Even if he gets cut he can go overseas and make money.

Let's not even factor in some of the athletes I know who went to 4 year schools, graduated, and can't hold a 35k/year job.

Nobody's forcing anyone to go to school - they can go work at McDonald's for two years and then enter the draft if they want. Or don't work at all, hire a personal coach and work with him for two years every day preparing for the draft.

You're right, if he's good enough to play then who cares what kind of degree he has or if he even has a degree or if he's even set foot on a college campus. If he can play then he's going to be a millionaire but if he can't make it then he's got nothing. Whether people you know who graduated with degrees can hold down jobs or not at least they have a degree and can still get an interview for a job much more frequently than someone who's never been to college.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the LeBrons making the jump but there's alot of kids it's not the right decision for especially when they don't even make it at all. It's hard to argue it was the wrong choice for a Kwame Brown - he may have stunted his basketball development and may never be the player he could have been but he's a very wealthy man at least. But for the kid who doesn't get drafted - then what?

Look at the drinking laws we have - you have to be 21 to drink (legally). Why is that a law? You mean there's no 18 year old person out there who is mature and responsible enough to handle a beer? The law is there because there's a much greater chance of someone under that age not being able to be responsible with it. Are 21 year olds irresponsible with alcohol? Of course some are but so are some 40 year olds. The government just felt that 21 was an appropriate cut off point which is what Stern wants to do. Maybe he feels that players who are 20 and older are more mature and better equipped to handle the NBA lifestyle on average and that two years of a paid education for anyone who wants to take advantage of it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for these kids even if one or two of them is ready at 18 to take on the NBA and NBA lifestyle.

[stevew]

What would be wrong with the Developmental league taking kids as young as 15 or 16 and making it into a truly u-20 league. Figure we let actors act at young ages with tutors, why not potentially elite basketball players. A true "cream of the crop" type prospect would be better served by playing professionally at a young age, plus he could make money that may help his family. 2 years in the D-League or 20 years old wouldnt be a bad NBA system, i think tho, that you need to give the truly talented kids a shot at an earlier age than HS senior.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by stevew

What would be wrong with the Developmental league taking kids as young as 15 or 16 and making it into a truly u-20 league. Figure we let actors act at young ages with tutors, why not potentially elite basketball players. A true "cream of the crop" type prospect would be better served by playing professionally at a young age, plus he could make money that may help his family. 2 years in the D-League or 20 years old wouldnt be a bad NBA system, i think tho, that you need to give the truly talented kids a shot at an earlier age than HS senior.

Why not do like the Soviets used to do - lets grab these kids when they're 2 or 3 and train them to do nothing but play basketball. If LeBron James gets some woman pregnant maybe a team can draft the rights to the baby just in case he turns out to be LeBron 2.0

Do you know how many "cream of the crop" prospects have fallen by the wayside? There are hundreds and hundreds of them for every one LeBron James. Its bad enough that the shoe companies and what not are recruiting 8th graders now, we don't need to open the floodgates further. It's one thing to encourage players to skip college but we certainly don't need more people dropping out of high school and that's exactly what you're going to have happen.

Your actors analogy is not helping your argument here - how many of the "elite" child actors have had normal lives? What about all the ones who thought they could make it but never got a role? Where are they? How many are there?

We need more doctors, teachers, police, etc in the world today not more kids who dropped out of high school to chase after a pipe dream. Do you really think that for kids who are given the message that basketball is their only way out of poverty and the streets are going to pay any attention at all to a tutor if they are playing semi-pro ball at age 15? There's a lot of HS kids who do only enough to stay eligible for the team as it is now - we don't need to further encourage them to ignore learning anything other than a crossover dribble.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the LeBrons making the jump but there's alot of kids it's not the right decision for especially when they don't even make it at all. It's hard to argue it was the wrong choice for a Kwame Brown - he may have stunted his basketball development and may never be the player he could have been but he's a very wealthy man at least. But for the kid who doesn't get drafted - then what?

For the kid who doesn't get drafted, then bummer for him. Why does everyone want life to be so isolated for these kids? Even the kids who make the biggest mistakes coming out (see: Korleone Young) can go overseas and make a nice living (six-figures).

[st.cronin]

This whole problem could be solved by requiring teams to carry at least 4 white players (1 of whom is American), at least 1 asian player, and at least 1 gay player.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This whole problem could be solved by requiring teams to carry at least 4 white players (1 of whom is American), at least 1 asian player, and at least 1 gay player.

If my mom was chinese and my dad was white and I was gay, could I draw 3 salaries? I would definitely be the most versatile 12th man ever!

[Raiders Army]

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