Momentum in Games: Perception or Coded Reality?

[WSUCougar]

This thought occurs to me periodically when I fall victim to what seems to be a run of bad luck for my team. It happens to me in TCY with the old penalty-penalty-dropped pass-penalty-sackfumble or INT dance, but most recently in FBCB with the epic brick-opponent's trey-steal-opponent's dunk-brick-opponent's trey+foul-brick-opponent's trey-foul+technical routine.

So the question for discussion is this:

Are things like momentum coded into these games, or is it simply a compilation of bad results that are perceived by the player as momentum?

[gstelmack]

I don't know about specific games, but I think you could easily just create these as straight random events and have it perceived as momentum. We play/watch enough games in these sims that you'll still have plenty of comebacks, near comebacks, and runs that the player will think momentum exists. Just like flipping four heads in a row.

[CraigSca]

Any game that would program this in as a "feature" would cause me to throw up in my mouth.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Any game that would program this in as a "feature" would cause me to throw up in my mouth.

I'm curious...why do you say that?

Momentum is a very real part of sports. I'm surprised it's not a documented part of most games.

[CraigSca]

Because it reminds me too much of the "catch-up" code infamous in some EA Sports games.

I have no problem adding this if it can be defined as "true" as well as have it's effects quantified.

Although I personally perceive momentum to be real - is it? Or is it a combination of other factors that just look like it?

[gstelmack]

I could see putting factors in like "give a small boost to the offense when it comes on to the field after a turnover" to deal with the morale aspects of the turnover, plus the quick turnaround of the defense coming out on to the field when they don't expect to. Or the confidence boost of having just made 3 shots in a row giving a small boost to your next shot's chance. Or reducing a team's effectiveness a bit once up big to reflect the "resting on your laurels" aspect.

Instead of calling it "momentum", it would more be like adding in some more mental factors in how the game is played. And they'd be small boosts that would slightly increase the odds of good/bad plays, but not by a significant margin (i.e. QB starts hitting 90-yard TD passes after going 5-25 earlier in the game like some sports console games do). Kind of the equivalent of the hot/cold streaks the FPS series used to do.

[cthomer5000]

Using my specific personal experience, it seems like there are a lot of massive comebacks in FOF, so it can sometimes feel as if 'momentum' is a factor. My better guess is that those comebacks happen more often because momentum or morale isn't a factor. Teams don't feel "down" when they're losing 24-0.

If we had concrete NFL stats on comebacks, it would be nice to run a comparison to FOF. Number of comebacks from 10+ points, 14+, 21+, etc... I don't know if it's perception or reality, but it seems like large comebacks occur more frequently in FOF.

This all really ties in to how I'd like to see team "morale" or "confidence" become a factor in the game. I think it would be some sort of function of the teams chemistry, recent success, and their historical success against the upcoming opponent.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Using my specific personal experience, it seems like there are a lot of massive comebacks in FOF, so it can sometimes feel as if 'momentum' is a factor. My better guess is that those comebacks happen more often because momentum or morale isn't a factor. Teams don't feel "down" when they're losing 24-0.

Actually, it has to do with offensive/defensive playcalling in the "Fourth Quarter Lead" category. I really had to tweak that to keep my offense from throwing all the time when up by 4. Let alone with a big lead. You can almost watch the game shift when the clock ticks and the new gameplan screen takes over...

[Marc Vaughan]

SI's games model personalities and as such you can have players getting 'cocky' if their team is in the lead or plucking up reserves of energy and determination when losing.

Of course the opposite is also true (players being 'driven' to get a hat-trick for example in soccer) or getting despondant and falling apart when losing etc. ....

None of this is 'hard coded' into the game, its down to the situatioons, the players personalities and how the 'manager' handles his team ...

PS> The captain can have a huge effect in our games, for example having an old captain with a mature outlook can steady a young team who might otherwise fall apart when they go a goal down ... of course it can be argued that this is the case irl as well ....

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

SI's games model personalities and as such you can have players getting 'cocky' if their team is in the lead or plucking up reserves of energy and determination when losing.

Of course the opposite is also true (players being 'driven' to get a hat-trick for example in soccer) or getting despondant and falling apart when losing etc. ....

None of this is 'hard coded' into the game, its down to the situatioons, the players personalities and how the 'manager' handles his team ...

PS> The captain can have a huge effect in our games, for example having an old captain with a mature outlook can steady a young team who might otherwise fall apart when they go a goal down ... of course it can be argued that this is the case irl as well ....

That's is why FM is the king, baby!

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Any game that would program this in as a "feature" would cause me to throw up in my mouth.

I think SI has included momentum at multiple levels in CM/FM. At the single game level the players individual personalities affect the result. Some players refuse to accept defeat, and will rally even when well down. Other times a team with a big lead will seemingly become overconfident. Substitution can be used to hopefully change the "momentum" through the introduction of different personalities. Also over the course of the season a team's collective morale can cause a winning team to go into the tank. I've had teams seemingly start to spiral out of control, then after a key win, they turn the tide and go on a roll. So in CM there is momentum both within actual games and over the course of a season. I think that is one of the things that makes the series so enjoyable.

I think I agree with you that if this was just added to a game as an afterthought, but at least in SI's case, they seem to have pretty well thought out how this works.

Edit: Boy take too long to type a post around here and a developer swoops in to make my post redundant.

[CraigSca]

Ok...I have no problem with that. SI has obviously proven they can do these things and do them well. Like you said, if it's added as an afterthought, then I would take great issue.

I think they key phrase that Mark used was that it's not hard-coded. If you're going to be going in-depth and including personalities of players, then it obviously lends itself to things such as momentum, but not in a way where you're overly simplistic. Momentum occurs for the same reasons that it does in real life, due to a complex series of emotions/abilities/etc.

There is no:

if (downby 3 goals) and (you scored the lastgoal) then
momentum += 1

[WSUCougar]

So correct me if I'm wrong, rather than coding it:

if (downby 3 goals) and (you scored the last goal) then momentum = +1

It's coded:

if (down by 3 goals) and (you scored the last goal) and (captain's rating A is >B) and (scorer's rating X is >Y) and (team's average rating Z is 15+) then momentum results in +1 to team's ratings in categories A/B/C

[KWhit]

I think it's coded:

1000101010111011011000010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111011010010101001011110110010010101001010001110101001011101

[HomerJSimpson]

If I enter that code, KWhit, will it play pong?

[Airhog]

Dude, its supposed to be


1000101010111011011000010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101011010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111011010010101001011110110010010101001010001110101001011101

Not


1000101010111011011000010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111010010100101010010111101100100101010010100011101010010111011010010101001011110110010010101001010001110101001011101

[Bubba Wheels]

Just send me that amount in pennies.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

So correct me if I'm wrong, rather than coding it:


It's coded:

Its more a few thousand lines of code involving fuzzy logic and looking at the personalities of the players involved, their club situation, the captain (and individual players relationships with captains and their manager), the tactics etc. .....

The cool thing about approaching things in this way is that we DONT have to code in specific things, they happen naturally because of the personality modelling we've placed in the game (ditto for EHM also in case anyone wonders).

[Marc Vaughan]

To elaborate a little more its a little along the lines of:

Player is 5 feet away from a contested 50-50 ball with another player, factors which will determine if he goes for the challenge include:

* Players energy level
* Players personality (ie. is he hard working etc.)
* Role the manager has given the player (ie. tactics etc.)
* Relationship with his teammates (ie. is he outcast from the team and not really interested in the match?)
* Relationship with the player going for the ball (ie. did the player foul him a couple of minutes ago, if so has it scared the player or conversely is he looking for revenge)
* Situation in the match (ie. is the team winning, losing, needing to win to achieve something etc.?)
* Managers statements on the match (ie. has the opposition manager inadvertantly made this player more motivated by hyping the match, alternatively has the opposition manager destroyed his confidence by placing lots of pressure on a player who can't handle it? ..).
* If the player scared of getting sent off because he's on a yellow card already and this referee has something against him?
* Players in match confidence level (has this player already gone for 4 50-50 balls against this player and not won one yet? - if so is he confident enouogh to continue battling or will he take another approach, ie. fouling the player or letting him get the ball and cutting off his runs?).

This is obviously a simplistic model of whats done in the game, but should give you an idea of the approach thats taken ...

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

a few thousand lines of code involving fuzzy logic

So you have female coders doing this part of the project?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

To elaborate a little more its a little along the lines of:

Player is 5 feet away from a contested 50-50 ball with another player, factors which will determine if he goes for the challenge include:

* Players energy level
* Players personality (ie. is he hard working etc.)
* Role the manager has given the player (ie. tactics etc.)
* Relationship with his teammates (ie. is he outcast from the team and not really interested in the match?)
* Relationship with the player going for the ball (ie. did the player foul him a couple of minutes ago, if so has it scared the player or conversely is he looking for revenge)
* Situation in the match (ie. is the team winning, losing, needing to win to achieve something etc.?)
* Managers statements on the match (ie. has the opposition manager inadvertantly made this player more motivated by hyping the match, alternatively has the opposition manager destroyed his confidence by placing lots of pressure on a player who can't handle it? ..).
* If the player scared of getting sent off because he's on a yellow card already and this referee has something against him?
* Players in match confidence level (has this player already gone for 4 50-50 balls against this player and not won one yet? - if so is he confident enouogh to continue battling or will he take another approach, ie. fouling the player or letting him get the ball and cutting off his runs?).

This is obviously a simplistic model of whats done in the game, but should give you an idea of the approach thats taken ...

That's pretty impressive (even as simple as you made it).

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by KWhit

That's pretty impressive (even as simple as you made it).

Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to share that, Marc.