Barry making an ass of himself

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Logan

Since there's someone who actually agrees with this ridiculousness, I'll play along.

You sell computers. You're damn good at it. Last month, you sold the most computers, earning you a $1000 bonus and a very nice plaque.

On January 26th, at 8:51 AM, you failed to use your blinker while pulling into a parking space at work. Go give back your bonus and plaque, you law-breaking bastard.

Actually, thank you for proving my point with the above example.

Barry didn't break any baseball rules. Therefore, his records are valid.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

To get people to like him more.

It's never a good idea to say hi to the reporters as you walk up and ask them (Pedro Gomez, specifically) if they are still "lyin'." Just bizarre. This guy must have Michael Jackson's PR firm.

I watched 15 minutes of it and came to the conclusion that I'm seeing the angriest and most delusional billionaire on the planet.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by rafini

But people like Clemens and they don't like Bonds, so only one of them is under the microscope (I personally don't like either of them, I just find this situation funny).

Uh, sure everyone loves Clemens. Just ask the guys up in Boston Alot of people like Giambi, but no one is denying that he took steroids and you can be sure he is under the microscope in NY.

Bonds: customer of Balco, alleged distributor of illegal drugs and steroids.
Bonds: allegedly admits in court to using cream from Balco

Giambi: Customer of Balco
Giambi: admits to taking steroids provided by Balco

Clemens: No evidence of any dealing with steroid providers or admissions in court or otherwise to my knowledge.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Logan

Since there's someone who actually agrees with this ridiculousness, I'll play along.

You sell computers. You're damn good at it. Last month, you sold the most computers, earning you a $1000 bonus and a very nice plaque.

On January 26th, at 8:51 AM, you failed to use your blinker while pulling into a parking space at work. Go give back your bonus and plaque, you law-breaking bastard.

Ok, I'll play along, too. Same supposed situation (computer salesman sold most computers, etc.). But instead of the minor infraction that you site, it ends up that he made all his sales by providing computers to a major illegal drug cartel. Now, the company didn't have a rule against selling to drug dealers (and I don't think it is actually illegal), but they thought their employees would have enough sense NOT to tie their company into dealings with criminals, and hurt their image in the community. So, do you think this guy will be fired?

[rafini]

Originally Posted by miked

Clemens has a well documented off season workout and anyone who knows him is fairly confident in his training. Clemens had good numbers, but really his NYY stats weren't all that impressive. The main reason he dominated so much last year was the move to the NL. Batting in the NL isn't nearly as good, and you get to face a joke batter every time through the lineup. The NL is where tired AL pitchers go to dominate.

Bonds on the other hand was trained by alleged felons, trained with admitted steroid users and puts up eye-popping numbers when nobody else his age does. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon.

If you compare the NL ERA and HR leaders last year, pitchers putting up numbers like Clemens and the Unit are way more unusual than older hitters putting up numbers.

ERA Leaders - Age
Peavy 23
Johnson 41
Sheets 26
Zambrano 23
Clemens 42
Ol. Perez 23
Pavano 29
Schmidt 32
Leiter 39
Od. Perez 27
Wright 29
Davis 29
Carpenter 29
Oswalt 27
Webb 25

HR Leaders
Beltre 25
Pujols 25
Dunn 25
Bonds 40
Thome 34
Edmonds 34
Alou 38
Burnitz 35
Finley 39
Ramirez 26
Sosa 36
Castilla 37
Rolen 29
Cabrera 21
Bunch tied at No. 15

So only 3 of the top 15 pitchers were older than 32, but 8 of the top 15 HR hitters were older than 32. Not exactly an endorsment for older pitchers being able to clean up in the NL.
The fact that Clemens' lowested ERA in the prevous five seasons was 3.51 (and he was 4.35 or higher twice), then last year at age 41-42 he had 18 wins and a 2.98 ERA makes me go hmmmmm......

As far was workouts, I'm pretty sure Bonds and Clemens both work their asses off. Even if you're on steroids, you don't just stick an needle in your ass and magically add 30 pounds, you still have to work your ass off.

I'm not saying Clemens is on the roids, but I just find it funny that everybody is all over these older hitters cranking out home runs, but nobody bats an eye at 40-year-old pitchers among the league leaders.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, it is kind of interesting to see all these pitchers still pitch 90 MPH+ after they've hit 40 as well. People can say it's training, but something doesn't seem right. I'm with oykib and saying that a GOOD number of MLB players are using something. If it isn't banned by baseball, I don't see the need for an asterisk, simple as that. Obviously baseball did not think those substances merited banning.

It isn't like baseball is appauled by cheating! If that was the case, Gaylord Perry would be banned from baseball faster than you can say Pete Rose! Spitballs, vasoline balls, corked bats, all part of the game that have been forgiven. How do we know when someone has a corked bat whether they used it that way their entire career?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Actually, thank you for proving my point with the above example.

Barry didn't break any baseball rules. Therefore, his records are valid.

My point wasn't to argue if his records were valid; merely it was to argue the ridiculous claim that if McGwire, Sosa, etc have broken ANY TYPE of law, completely unrelated to baseball, they should have asterisks or whatever.

Damn, there are a huge number of athletes who have committed MAJOR crimes in sports, and NO ONE CARES. This is the most UNBELIEVABLE thing, in my opinion. Ray Lewis...maybe he didn't actually kill that guy, but he was somehow involved. Jamal Lewis set up a drug deal when he knew he had millions coming to him soon. The only complaint people had about this was when it was found out he would be missing a few weeks of the season, and "damn, I'm screwed in fantasy football for those weeks."

Why do people care so much when it comes to the history of the game? People have been cheating in baseball, in one way or another, for years. Greenies, spitballs, cork, etc. The way we idolize players is ridiculous. Mickey Mantle was a drunk, but he's loved. Hell, my father has been telling me how great he was since I was born. Did he ever manage to tell me how he (Mickey, not my dad) got loaded every night with Billy and Whitey? Of course not. My father bought me Mantle's book "My Favorite Summer - 1956" when I was, maybe, 10 or 11. Imagine my surprise when I read it and found out what kind of guy he really was. Does that change how I felt about him as a player? No. As the idol my dad made him out to be? Yes.

I guess my point in my rambling above is this: I really don't care about asterisks or whatever, and I don't think anyone else should either. I'm 21 years old. If in maybe about 15 years, when I have a kid who is starting to follow baseball, my son asks me about Barry Bonds, I'll tell him he was a shithead who was juiced up, was an asshole to the media, and allegedly teammates too. I'll make sure he doesn't want to grow up to be Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc. But I will tell him about the hard work, great play, and attitude of guys like Piazza, Jeter, Varitek, etc. Guys who can be respected for the way they are off the field as much as on the field.

Looking back at what I've written here, I don't know if this makes sense, or if I even stuck with one stance. But damn it, this made sense in my head, and if I confuse the hell out of my kid one day, well too bad, that's what dads are for.

[miked]

Originally Posted by rafini

So only 3 of the top 15 pitchers were older than 32, but 8 of the top 15 HR hitters were older than 32. Not exactly an endorsment for older pitchers being able to clean up in the NL.
The fact that Clemens' lowested ERA in the prevous five seasons was 3.51 (and he was 4.35 or higher twice), then last year at age 41-42 he had 18 wins and a 2.98 ERA makes me go hmmmmm......

As far was workouts, I'm pretty sure Bonds and Clemens both work their asses off. Even if you're on steroids, you don't just stick an needle in your ass and magically add 30 pounds, you still have to work your ass off.

I'm not saying Clemens is on the roids, but I just find it funny that everybody is all over these older hitters cranking out home runs, but nobody bats an eye at 40-year-old pitchers among the league leaders.

That is all well and good for 2004, but I was talking historically. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you'll find more instances of pitchers pitching well into their 40s than batters hitting into their 40s. Also, the dropoff in ERA for the Rocket is most likely a result of him going to the NL. Many AL pitchers have gone to the NL and completely changed their game. RJ was nowhere near as nasty as when he first came to the NL...I think he went nearly undefeated for the Astros. Leiter was a mediocre AL pitcher and became the NL's best. I'm not saying 100% that NL batting is worse, just that a lot of pitchers that are pretty good in the AL become even better in the NL.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

Ok, I'll play along, too. Same supposed situation (computer salesman sold most computers, etc.). But instead of the minor infraction that you site, it ends up that he made all his sales by providing computers to a major illegal drug cartel. Now, the company didn't have a rule against selling to drug dealers (and I don't think it is actually illegal), but they thought their employees would have enough sense NOT to tie their company into dealings with criminals, and hurt their image in the community. So, do you think this guy will be fired?

If the guy sold it to them KNOWING that it was a drug cartel (by the way, are there any legal drug cartels ?), then hell yeah he should be fired. If he sold it to a company that happened to be a front for a carter, then no.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Logan

If the guy sold it to them KNOWING that it was a drug cartel (by the way, are there any legal drug cartels ?), then hell yeah he should be fired. If he sold it to a company that happened to be a front for a carter, then no.

He did it knowing, just like Barry. He knew what he was doing and would tarnish the image of baseball, and yet he did it and introduced others to it.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It isn't like baseball is appauled by cheating! If that was the case, Gaylord Perry would be banned from baseball faster than you can say Pete Rose! Spitballs, vasoline balls, corked bats, all part of the game that have been forgiven. How do we know when someone has a corked bat whether they used it that way their entire career?

Good point.

[Bomber]

You guys don't honestly think there should be an asterisk next to Bonds records, right?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It isn't like baseball is appauled by cheating! If that was the case, Gaylord Perry would be banned from baseball faster than you can say Pete Rose! Spitballs, vasoline balls, corked bats, all part of the game that have been forgiven. How do we know when someone has a corked bat whether they used it that way their entire career?

And with Perry, it's even worse, IMO - his doctoring of baseballs has been an open, running joke for decades. It's not like baseball turned a blind eye to what he was doing - it became part of the "colorful" history of the 70's and 80's.

I remember when he was coaching a small Div III team and they played my school's team (this was back around 1990, I think). Every time he went out to the mound we would yell for the umps to watch him, etc. And he still seemed genuinely amused by it all.

[rkmsuf]

I will agree with Bonds in one thing he said in that it's only baseball. The way this gets carried on about is a tad ridiculous.

[Bomber]

Take a look at the home run totals pre-1920 and the reason they increased in the following years.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Bomber

You guys don't honestly think there should be an asterisk next to Bonds records, right?

In my heart I would like to see an asterisk until he comes clean. Tell us how long you've been doing steroids, what you've been doing, why you did them, etc.. so we can judge him and his records honestly. None of this 'I applied cream but had no idea what it was' crap. Sort of like the way they held out the Pete Rose HOF invite until he admitted he gambled (not that that really worked out).

In reality, though the asterisk probably doesn't make sense. I do know that if in 20 years from now my kid asks me who the greatest home run hitter or baseball player or whatever is, I won't say Barry Bonds.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I do know that if in 20 years from now my kid asks me who the greatest home run hitter or baseball player or whatever is, I won't say Barry Bonds.

Who even comes close to Barry Bonds that has played in the past quarter-century?

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Who even comes close to Barry Bonds that has played in the past quarter-century?

No one (edit - other than Hank in the HR dept of course), but you're missing the point. I'll never know how much of that was do to the 'roids and how much of that was due to Barry. I mean he was a great hitter and MVP back when he was skinny Barry ... but he didn't become the greatest until he started bulking out jacking 50+ homers a year.

How many of those homers would have been pop flies for skinny Barry? How many of those walks/pitch arounds would have been issued if the pitchers didn't fear him. How many more strikeouts would he have if pitchers knew they could get it in on the handle and he couldn't turn it for 450 feet?

I'll never know or at least I'll have doubts. If Barry came clean at least I'd be able to put it in some contexts.

[rkmsuf]

My favorite question I heard is when someone asked him "Barry, do you have anything you want to apologize for". This was well into and surely the guy new what he was going to get. It took balls and I think he asked him just to get under his skin.

[KWhit]

By the way, I read in SI today that human growth hormone is not on the banned list in the new policy. What the hell!? I thought that was one of the main things that was being abused.

In addition to that, I feel sure there are more designer steroids out there that are currently undetectable.

So don't anybody kid yourselves into thinking that the new plan is going to change anything soon.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Who even comes close to Barry Bonds that has played in the past quarter-century?

Without steroids, Bonds' best years would have been about 10 years ago. He certainly wouldn't be hitting 70-plus HRs at his age!

[sooner333]

He should go to the hall of fame for sure because he was one of the best players in the game prior to his alleged steroid use. He has been in the top 3 in OPS since 1990. That is pretty remarkable consistancy, and I think we'd all agree that back in 1990 and up through at least most of the 90's Bonds wasn't juicing.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Without steroids, Bonds' best years would have been about 10 years ago. He certainly wouldn't be hitting 70-plus HRs at his age!

Big Mac hit 70 and 65 at 35 and 36. Bonds hit 73 at 37. Not much of a difference.

Actually, if you take away hi 73, the sheer number of home runs Bonds has hit has been fairly consistent since the early 90s. He just has a helluva lot more HRs/ABs now because of all the walks.

1992 - 36
1993 - 38
1994 - 18 (injured)
1995 - 33
1996 - 42
1997 - 40
1998 - 37
1999 - 34 (injured)
2000 - 49
2001 - 73
2002 - 46
2003 - 45
2004 - 45

Is there an increase? No doubt. Is it this huge, monsterous increase? If you take out the 73, not really. It's actually his BA that's gone way up in his career.

From 1992 - 2000, Bonds was a great hitter, hitting 6 times during that span. But he hit over .312 only once (.336 in 1993).

Since that 2000 season, Bonds has hit over .320 every year. And over .340 the last 3 years. That's a pretty sizable increase.

Do steriods improve your eyes and contact (probably)? Has anyone tested Irchio?

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Do steriods improve your eyes and contact (probably)? Has anyone tested Irchio?

That's a silly argument. Bonds always had good hand/eye coordination no one doubts that. No one says steroids enables you to hit a 90mph fastball.

But based on popular knowledge steroids do increase strength. Strength does turn that popup into a home run, or off the wall double. Strength does turn a weak liner into a hard liner. Strength does allow you to hit a ball off the handle of the bat and muscle it into the outfield. Strenth allows you to intimidate pitchers. All of which could not only increase home run production but also batting average - last time I checked your batting average was higher if you hit it off the wall versus weak popups. And anyone who's seen Ichiro play knows he's a completely different style hitter than Bonds (slap base hitters are way different than power hitters).

Perhaps more importantly, steroids help maintain the strength and eases recovery from injury (which as those of us over 30 can attest becomes increasingly difficult as we approach 40).

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Big Mac hit 70 and 65 at 35 and 36. Bonds hit 73 at 37. Not much of a difference.

I think Big Mac was juicing too.

My point is that a typical power hitter's prime is in their late 20s and early 30s. By their late 30s the body starts to degrade. Injuries happen more regularly, and the daily wear and tear of the season gets to them.

No way would Bonds have been able to keep his HR/AB pace from his "prime" as he got older without help. And you can't discount HR/AB just because of walks. More walks means less chances to hit a HR. He should be hitting less of them per season - not MORE!

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Perhaps more importantly, steroids help maintain the strength and eases recovery from injury (which as those of us over 30 can attest becomes increasingly difficult as we approach 40).

This is the most important part, every time Barry trots out the "Steroids don't help hand-eye coordination" it further convinces me he is taking something. Whether he has convinced himself that what he is doing is fine is irrelevant to me.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I think Big Mac was juicing too.

My point is that a typical power hitter's prime is in their late 20s and early 30s. By their late 30s the body starts to degrade. Injuries happen more regularly, and the daily wear and tear of the season gets to them.

No way would Bonds have been able to keep his HR/AB pace from his "prime" as he got older without help. And you can't discount HR/AB just because of walks. More walks means less chances to hit a HR. He should be hitting less of them per season - not MORE!

Actually, I saw something just the other day on this...I wish I could remember where.

The average top-25 HR hitter is 2+ years older than the average 25 years ago. I think it went from 29.5 to 32 or something like that. So the overall trend is for power hitters to be older and with the advances in medicine, workout routines, etc., I can believe that this happens without someone taking steroids. It seems we see more older players in many sports - there are 40 year olds playing basketball, older HR hitters and it seems even older hockey players. I don't notice the trend as much in football, probably due to the contact and very short time in the league of the average football player. But I see it in other sports...or am I wrong?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Actually, I saw something just the other day on this...I wish I could remember where.

The average top-25 HR hitter is 2+ years older than the average 25 years ago. I think it went from 29.5 to 32 or something like that. So the overall trend is for power hitters to be older and with the advances in medicine, workout routines, etc., I can believe that this happens without someone taking steroids. It seems we see more older players in many sports - there are 40 year olds playing basketball, older HR hitters and it seems even older hockey players. I don't notice the trend as much in football, probably due to the contact and very short time in the league of the average football player. But I see it in other sports...or am I wrong?

You're probably right. I haven't seen the actual statistical breakdown by age, but that sounds correct and I believe it is probably true.

But again, he is an admitted steroid user. In my mind it's no different than Sammy's corked bat. We can't know for sure what impact it had on his performance, but it calls into question everything he's done on the field in recent years.