General tells it like it is.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Also, didn't somebody do a study that suggested that only a minority of combat soldiers in WWII actually fired their weapon at an enemy?

I'm sure there were quite a few "Nazi hunters" in the day, but I wouldn't doubt that there aren't a few tall tales in the mix. Kind of like all the millions of people who say they were at Woodstock...

Sure, but I'm not talking about a random cross-section. The men I am familiar with were all in combat units. Several Purple Hearts and Silver Stars can be found amongst 'em, but they were definitely a minority--in more ways than one.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Sure, but I'm not talking about a random cross-section. The men I am familiar with were all in combat units. Several Purple Hearts and Silver Stars can be found amongst 'em, but they were definitely a minority--in more ways than one.

Point taken, SkyDog.

[Passacaglia]

Can't the sins of these people be forgiven if they accept Christ?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Sure, but I'm not talking about a random cross-section. The men I am familiar with were all in combat units. Several Purple Hearts and Silver Stars can be found amongst 'em, but they were definitely a minority--in more ways than one.

Are you sure they just didn't like killing whitey?

(joke, people )

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yes. They told stories and shared laughs about killing Nazis.

Seriously, that's messed up.

And I don't care about the context. It is seriously troubling that people enjoyed ending the lives of others. There is a difference between carrying out your duty and enjoying it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Seriously, that's messed up.

And I don't care about the context. It is seriously troubling that people enjoyed ending the lives of others. There is a difference between carrying out your duty and enjoying it.

thus is the reason why you're not in the armed forces.

war, and its success, is basically (in my mind) determiend by those who are willing to take things to the next level. i'm very glad we have people in this country who are willing to do the dirty work. if they get some satisfaction out of their job all the better. these people risk their lives and deserve any convenience afforded to them.

pussies like Siddiqui not only want people to defend him, but he wants them to not enjoy bringing justice and enjoy defending their country.

i'm with SkyDog - i couldn't kill someone for the fuck of it, but if i successfully brought an "evil-doer" to justice i'd take some satisfaction in that. there's nothing to be ashamed of for making the world a slightly better place.

there is a distinction between killing random people and killing "bad guys".

[GoldenEagle]

I wonder how many people posting in this thread have served in a hot combat zone. I know I never have. Therefore, I can not comment on the General’s remarks. Until you have served, I do not think anyone can. Were his comments out of line? Perhaps, but at the same time I think he should be an exception to the rule.

I think are military is trained to be professional soldiers. Over the history of time, soldiers have been told to kill. In a way, you could say that is it his job to kill. If he enjoys doing that, then more power to him.

As far as the ensuing debate goes, under some circumstances I would enjoy carrying out lethal justice. If I had a daughter ,and she was raped, then I would personally enjoy killing the son of bitch that did. It would have to be something along those circumstances. If someone broke into my house and I had to shoot them for the safety of my family, I would not enjoy that.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Also, didn't somebody do a study that suggested that only a minority of combat soldiers in WWII actually fired their weapon at an enemy?

I'm sure there were quite a few "Nazi hunters" in the day, but I wouldn't doubt that there aren't a few tall tales in the mix. Kind of like all the millions of people who say they were at Woodstock...

The SLA Marshall ratio of fire stuff? His work has been under heavy attack as being a bunch of invented bunk.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Seriously, that's messed up.

And I don't care about the context. It is seriously troubling that people enjoyed ending the lives of others. There is a difference between carrying out your duty and enjoying it.

I don't know. I know some WWII vets that saw combat. I know some Vietnam vets who saw combat. I think a lot of them would say that they dehumanized the enemy. They considered the enemy as much less than human. It is just about the only way you function in that environment. When you are in an environment where your own friends are being brutally killed next to you, life becomes cheap. I think it is a defense mechanism. It is much easier to kill when you don't consider the enemy as having a human life. It might even become fun.

A good family friend was a sniper in Vietnam. He has brutal guilt about it today. He knows that when three V.C. are riding up a river in a boat, that he decided which one of them he was going to kill. At the time, it was no big deal to him. 35ish years later, he is sometimes overcome by guilt<--I'm not entirely sure that is the word he would use. He has also said that his C.O. took him off of sniper duty when it became apparent that he was enjoying it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I don't know. I know some WWII vets that saw combat. I know some Vietnam vets who saw combat. I think a lot of them would say that they dehumanized the enemy. They considered the enemy as much less than human. It is just about the only way you function in that environment. When you are in an environment where your own friends are being brutally killed next to you, life becomes cheap. I think it is a defense mechanism. It is much easier to kill when you don't consider the enemy as having a human life. It might even become fun.

A good family friend was a sniper in Vietnam. He has brutal guilt about it today. He knows that when three V.C. are riding up a river in a boat, that he decided which one of them he was going to kill. At the time, it was no big deal to him. 35ish years later, he is sometimes overcome by guilt<--I'm not entirely sure that is the word he would use. He has also said that his C.O. took him off of sniper duty when it became apparent that he was enjoying it.

I can see a dehumanization of the enemy at the time. Thinking of them as less than human so you can kill and not be overwhelmed by it. Though I think afterwards, thinking back, realizing that they were human has got to stop mental stable people from saying they enjoyed killing others. We may believe vigilantes (for example) are doing "good", but they are also considered to be mentally unbalanced by psychiatry.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

More Rednecks in power - good thing. I love the marines as some sort of moral authority bit.

Nice to see how you can sit there all high and mighty while putting people in neat little categories so you can feel better about yourself. This is probably the third time I've seen you call people who don't agree with you as a "redneck" like it's a some major putdown. Do you have some hang up on this term because that's what you view people on the conservative end of the spectrum or are you just a bigot and "cracker" would be too obvious? That would be like me call every Democrat who I don't agree with a "nigger" because it so happens that many African Americans are a member even though they make up a small percentage of the party.

As people explained earlier, the military is a different culture with different sets of morals much like any other culture. One is taught to dehumanized his opposition, so he can justify killing another human being. Some learn to enjoy killing their enemy because it is acceptable in that culture. Without being in the military, you could never possibly understand that, and I don't expect you to. However, to suggest that people in position of authority in the military wants all Americans to feel that way is misguided and very shortsighted.

[gstelmack]

The recent book "Flyboys" (about WWII Pacific fighter pilots in general and a group that crashed and were taken prisoner on an island just off Iwo Jima in particular) has an excellent discussion of abuses of war and the like that might be of interest to those debating in this thread. He specifically talks about atrocities committed on both sides of the conflict and what leads men to do things in war they'd never do in real life.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by duckman

Nice to see how you can sit there all high and mighty while putting people in neat little categories so you can feel better about yourself. This is probably the third time I've seen you call people who don't agree with you as a "redneck" like it's a some major putdown. Do you have some hang up on this term because that's what you view people on the conservative end of the spectrum or are you just a bigot and "cracker" would be too obvious? That would be like me call every Democrat who I don't agree with a "nigger" because it so happens that many African Americans are a member even though they make up a small percentage of the party.

As people explained earlier, the military is a different culture with different sets of morals much like any other culture. One is taught to dehumanized his opposition, so he can justify killing another human being. Some learn to enjoy killing their enemy because it is acceptable in that culture. Without being in the military, you could never possibly understand that, and I don't expect you to. However, to suggest that people in position of authority in the military wants all Americans to feel that way is misguided and very shortsighted.

For what its worth, Im far more of a Rockerfeller Republican than I am a Democrat. Secondly, I use the term "redneck" to describe an idiot who doesnt seem to know much - be he red/white/black green whatever. In essence, to me, a redneck is an uneducated or idiotic country bumpkin type with some ancient views.

[Glengoyne]

For those interested in this topic. I reccomend this book Generation Kill: Devil Dogs, Iceman, Captain America, and the New Face of American War.

The General in this story is quoted in the book's opening line....here.

It is on the short list of books I'm waiting to buy from Amazon.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by duckman

As people explained earlier, the military is a different culture with different sets of morals much like any other culture. One is taught to dehumanized his opposition, so he can justify killing another human being. Some learn to enjoy killing their enemy because it is acceptable in that culture. Without being in the military, you could never possibly understand that, and I don't expect you to. However, to suggest that people in position of authority in the military wants all Americans to feel that way is misguided and very shortsighted.

People learning to enjoy killing are fundementally misguided. There is a difference between a duty and enjoyment of that duty. And please don't give me the military line - I dont particularly care to be lectured by former army personel that I don't understand that enjoying killing people is acceptable - its moral equivalance.

[Easy Mac]

2 points:

1. Can we just agree that some on our side enjoy killing them and some on their side enjoy killing us, and the other half just do it to survive.

2. It'd be interesting to see if he would apply his own logic on some serviceman (an insanely small percentage no doubt) who smack their women around and have no manhood.

Personally, I don't think its anyone's decision to determine who lives or dies, but I know that if I had to be there and was getting shot at, I'd do what I had to do not to die (but I sure as heck would hate myself for doing it). But thats my opinion, and its a decision I'd rather never be faced with.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And please don't give me the military line - I dont particularly care to be lectured by former army personel that I don't understand that enjoying killing people is acceptable - its moral equivalance.

Yes. I find a military guy or veteran on his high horse putting down the "ignorance" of people who didn't serve is just as dismissive as a feminist who bashes men because he "just doesn't get it."

[rkmsuf]

Let's put it this way.

I'd rather have this guy fighting on my behalf than some candy ass, politically correct pansy.

Rock on.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

People learning to enjoy killing are fundementally misguided. There is a difference between a duty and enjoyment of that duty. And please don't give me the military line - I dont particularly care to be lectured by former army personel that I don't understand that enjoying killing people is acceptable - its moral equivalance.

And I don't particularly care for some obviously closed-minded individual placing others in neat little categories because they don't think like he does. So i guess we are in a bit of a predicament? You bash on people who don't meet your level of enlightment, and I like to "lecture".

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by duckman

And I don't particularly care for some obviously closed-minded individual placing others in neat little categories because they don't think like he does. So i guess we are in a bit of a predicament? You bash on people who don't meet your level of enlightment, and I like to "lecture".

Not really - you told me I didnt have the ability to understand, while I suggested that the guy who did "understand" in your world (the general) is wrong to do so. Im expressing disgust at his opinion - you're suggesting I don't have the right to an opinion here - and there-in lies the difference.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

QOTM, baby!

Today's lesson - don't f*ck with the Head Nigger In Charge.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Let's put it this way.

I'd rather have this guy fighting on my behalf than some candy ass, politically correct pansy.

Rock on.

I don't completely disagree. I also would agree that the military culture ingrains the mentality by necessity. The problem is with the reintegration back to civilian life, since military culture and civilian culture are not always compatible. Reintegration is something we can do better at, as PTSD and suicide rates of combat veterans are higher than in the overall population.

A lot of us would love this guy in the military, but how many of us would want him as a civilian living next door?

[tategter]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I don't completely disagree. I also would agree that the military culture ingrains the mentality by necessity. The problem is with the reintegration back to civilian life, since military culture and civilian culture are not always compatible. Reintegration is something we can do better at, as PTSD and suicide rates of combat veterans are higher than in the overall population.

A lot of us would love this guy in the military, but how many of us would want him as a civilian living next door?

I would. I know quite a few old retired Marines and sailors and they are all interesting characters.

As a former Marine I have to give a big OORAH!!! to the General. His comments were a bit gungho but I'm glad he spoke his mind.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

A lot of us would love this guy in the military, but how many of us would want him as a civilian living next door?

Presuming he's following the applicable rules of engagement? (i.e., he isn't currently selecting his targets on personal criteria, following orders, etc.)

It wouldn't bother me a bit, and I'd probably find him preferable to a random member of the general population. I'll even buy him beer on a regular basis.

[rkmsuf]

I dunno. I think the likelyhood of this guy picking off people to relive the thrill of killing is less than the likelyhood of some moron going sidewalk bowling after 47 consecutive hours of GTA.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Not really - you told me I didnt have the ability to understand, while I suggested that the guy who did "understand" in your world (the general) is wrong to do so. Im expressing disgust at his opinion - you're suggesting I don't have the right to an opinion here - and there-in lies the difference.

I never suggest that you could not have an opinion, but your originial comment was not an opinion, but a potshot at everyone who is not in your level of enlightment. When I said that you don't understand, I was making a reference to the fact you have never been in military nor had a desire to do so. You can't truly understand it without experiencing it firsthand.

BTW, I am former Air Force (not Army).

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by duckman

I never suggest that you could not have an opinion, but your originial comment was not an opinion, but a potshot at everyone who is not in your level of enlightment. When I said that you don't understand, I was making a reference to the fact you have never been in military nor had a desire to do so. You can't truly understand it without experiencing it firsthand.

BTW, I am former Air Force (not Army).

the "Armed Forces", which is the standing Army per se - that's what army was referring to. No, my "potshot" was at someone who suggested the killing is fun, which reveals a fairly deep character flaw - and I explained exactly what was said - I was calling him an idiot. The experience firsthand is now tired - I can't understand because I've never been there ? This reeks of condescention. An Astronaut who's been on the moon understands it better than the scientist who's spent more time researching and working on it ? That inane.

[Fritz]

you can watch a lot of porn and not have a clue about sex

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by tategter

I would. I know quite a few old retired Marines and sailors and they are all interesting characters.

Of course, many vets come back who adjust perfectly well to society upon their return--the many gregarious types we all know who share their interesting stories with us.

There are others who never speak of their time in combat, and still others with deep psychological scars from their experiences. Those are the guys that society more or less ignores. We should pay more attention to this, not so much because they could suddenly go postal (though this happens on occassion), but more because the warrior cultural ideal probably frowns on them getting the help they need to sort through their issues. They shouldn't have to suffer in silence if they don't need to.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

I'm sure all of those killed were at least one of the above, right?

Hey, he was mean to his wife and we don't like that in the U-S-of-A!

Different people. Different way of life. Let's hope some Muslims don't ever occupy our country and decide to enforce their morality on us.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I'm sure all of those killed were at least one of the above, right?

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

Obviously, you overlooked that portion of the sentence.

[tategter]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I'm sure all of those killed were at least one of the above, right?

Hey, he was mean to his wife and we don't like that in the U-S-of-A!

Different people. Different way of life. Let's hope some Muslims don't ever occupy our country and decide to enforce their morality on us.

Let me guess. You rode the short bus to school didn't you?

[Raiders Army]

I was going to respond more fully with the second post in this thread, but I wanted to wait it out to see how everyone responded. In my mind, pretty much status quo, and I agree with Hell Atlantic completely.

If you don't like it, that's why you aren't in the military. You just can't hack it. Obviously you've never been in a situation where you are fighting an enemy and you need someone like the General that "enjoys" killing.

If you don't like how he said it, you go to war and kill somebody and see how you feel. I don't think there are any lines to the recruiters.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by duckman

Obviously, you overlooked that portion of the sentence.

Oh, so Skydog would just like killing others? Maybe he should join up. If the army won't take 'em, a security firm will.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Oh, so Skydog would just like killing others? Maybe he should join up. If the army won't take 'em, a security firm will.

or the postal service

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Fritz

you can watch a lot of porn and not have a clue about sex

well played

[JeffNights]

From my own personal perspective, I can say that yes, it is enjoyable when you kill the enemy before he kills you.

Thats about as blunty as i can put it.

I guess according to Siddiqui , that makes me a pyschopath...ah well, i've been called worse by much better.

[KWhit]

I wonder if this kind of thought process is what led to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. I would assume if some people enjoy killing the enemy that others enjoy torturing and degrading the enemy.

[sabotai]

I think there's a difference between someone who enjoys killing someone, and someone who enjoys killing someone before they kill him/her. I'd say a huge difference.

[JeffNights]

Nahh, not really.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

This is great. I know some people will have problems with this, but it's absolutely true.

I agree.