Rocket worth $22 million??

[LoneStarGirl]

Now, as an avid Astros fan I have extreme mixed feelings about this. It was an honor to have Roger Clemens pitch for us last year, especially since he pissed a lot of people off by coming out of retirement. But $22 million? That seems a little bit ridiculous to me. Its hard for me to believe that he is worth that.




HOUSTON -- Roger Clemens is seeking a record $22 million in salary arbitration while the Astros have offered the seven-time Cy Young Award winner $13.5 million, according to figures released Tuesday.

The Astros also exchanged 2005 salary figures with their other arbitration-eligible players, including outfielder Lance Berkman and pitchers Roy Oswalt, Tim Redding and Pete Munro, all of whom will be playing for Houston in 2005.

Clemens, however, is the uncertainty. The right-hander has yet to determine if he will pitch in 2005 or retire.

"We are proceeding down the arbitration path as if Roger were going to play; however, he has not yet made a final decision," said Randy Hendricks, one of Clemens' Houston-based agents, via e-mail to MLB.com Tuesday afternoon.

The previous record for an arbitration request was $18.5 million by Yankee shortstop Derek Jeter in 2001. Jeter subsequently signed for $189 million over 10 years.

"Roger has not indicated whether he is going to play or not," Astros general manager Tim Purpura said. "I've said all along we're going to wait patiently for his answer. We haven't put any pressure on Roger or his family to make a decision. Once a decision is made then we have to negotiate a contract."

If Clemens, 42, receives the $22 million it would be the highest salary earned by a pitcher in a single season, topping the record of $17.5 million set last year by Pedro Martinez, then with the Boston Red Sox.

The $8.5 million spread between what Clemens is seeking and what the Astros have offered is the largest margin in arbitration history.

"What the numbers do is they establish a midpoint," Purpura said. "Typically once the numbers are filed you focus on the midpoint, will an arbitrator think that our case is a winner or the player's case is a winner? That's what you have to determine. When those two numbers (are filed) there are going to be disparities, that's just the nature of the process.

"Typically in these contracts, I don't think there's ever a case where the settlement was at the club's number or the players' number, it's something in between."

Clemens, 18-4 with a 2.98 ERA last season, made $5 million in 2004, not counting an additional $1.8 million in incentives.

While he waits for a decision from Clemens, Purpura has other negotiations pending.

Berkman filed for $11 million while the Astros are offering $10 million. Redding is seeking $1.4 million and Houston has offered $575,000. Munro wants $1.1 million next season but the Astros have offered $525,000. Oswalt submitted an offer sheet for $7.8 million and Houston has offered $6 million.

The Astros have already discussed a multi-year extension with Berkman.

"Lance, because he's one year away from free agency, I think we're more motivated to get something done with him in terms of (a multi-year contract)," Purpura said. "Roy has two years left before he's arbitration eligible."

Purpura hopes to have all signed before they head to arbitration hearings.

[Honolulu_Blue]

No.

[SackAttack]

The rule of thumb is that you're paying more for what the player has done in the past than for what you think he's capable of doing in the future. If the opposite were true, Beltre would've hit his payday 2-3 years ago.

That said, if ANY starting pitcher is worth $22 million, it's probably Clemens.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

That said, if ANY starting pitcher is worth $22 million, it's probably Clemens.

as much as it pains me to write this about someone I totally despise...I agree.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

as much as it pains me to write this about someone I totally despise...I agree.

How can you despise him? Although while he was a Yankee I could care less about him, but i generally feel that way about any Yankee.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

How can you despise him? Although while he was a Yankee I could care less about him, but i generally feel that way about any Yankee.

Bill Simmons said it much, much better than me, but, unfortunately crappy ESPN has made his older material Insider.

so, I'll just say, I just do.

[Mr. Sparkle]

I agree with Draft Dodger, I've never liked Clemens one bit. I never read the Bill Simmons article, but he would have probably explained it adequately for me, too. On to the 22 million, if I'm not mistaken, Clemens hasn't even decided if he is going to play next year. I guess he's waiting to see the outcome of the arbitration hearing. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'd say that if he wins, he'll be an Astro next year. Just a hunch.

[stevew]

Shouldnt the talk be more about the Stros only thinking he is worth 13.5 million?

[Ksyrup]

The truth lies somewhere in between...which is why one is at $22M and the other at $13M. Average them and you get - surprise! - pretty much exactly what Pedro got as the highest one-year salary ever for a pitcher. That's not a coincidence.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The truth lies somewhere in between...which is why one is at $22M and the other at $13M. Average them and you get - surprise! - pretty much exactly what Pedro got as the highest one-year salary ever for a pitcher. That's not a coincidence.

But his salary cannot be exactly in between. The arbitrator must pick one of the two numbers. I believe that it is now to late for them to strike a deal in between, they must live with the figure the arbitrator picks.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Samdari

But his salary cannot be exactly in between. The arbitrator must pick one of the two numbers. I believe that it is now to late for them to strike a deal in between, they must live with the figure the arbitrator picks.

They can still negotiate up until the hearing.

From the article:

"What the numbers do is they establish a midpoint," Purpura said. "Typically once the numbers are filed you focus on the midpoint, will an arbitrator think that our case is a winner or the player's case is a winner? That's what you have to determine. When those two numbers (are filed) there are going to be disparities, that's just the nature of the process.

"Typically in these contracts, I don't think there's ever a case where the settlement was at the club's number or the players' number, it's something in between."

[rkmsuf]

I don't think he wants to play anyway but if somehow he gets 22 million he'll make a go of it for another year.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Samdari

But his salary cannot be exactly in between. The arbitrator must pick one of the two numbers. I believe that it is now to late for them to strike a deal in between, they must live with the figure the arbitrator picks.

I'm not intimately familiar with arbitration rules, but I'm fairly certain they can negotiate up until the day of arbitration. For instance, when Greg Maddux asked for somewhere around $18M from the Braves in arbitration, they settled on something in between (arounf $16M?) - and I'm fairly certain that was beyond even the point that Clemens is at right now in the arbitration process.

I might be wrong, though.

EDIT: I guess I was right.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I don't think he wants to play anyway but if somehow he gets 22 million he'll make a go of it for another year.

Would it completely dissuade you to play if you were looking for $22M and ONLY got $17.5M? Plus, I think he picked that number just so the midpoint would be where it is.

[MizzouRah]

Mr stay at home unless I pitch? What a jerk.


Todd

[Shepp]

He's probably sees himsself in a win-win situation. If they give him that obscene amount of money he will come back to play. If they don't he'll just retire... again.

[Swaggs]

He pitched for "only" $5M last season, so that might have something to do with him overvaluing himself this season.

[miked]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Mr stay at home unless I pitch? What a jerk.


Todd

Yeah, it's bloody awful what 7 Cy Youngs, 300+ wins, 4000+ K's and a few rings earns you these days...time with your family and doing what you love. Absurd.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by miked

Yeah, it's bloody awful what 7 Cy Youngs, 300+ wins, 4000+ K's and a few rings earns you these days...time with your family and doing what you love. Absurd.

Yeah, why get all that money and then stay away from the team?

Just because you're good you should get special treatment? Maybe Pujols will stay at home on Mondays to spend time with his family. Sheeeshh... Roger is about Roger and he's been that way for years.

Yeah, he's worth $22 mil.

Actually, you're from Boston and you defend him?


Todd

[sterlingice]

No, a 42 year old Roger Clemens isn't worth that. Last year he pitched good, no doubt, but not that kind of money even if he wasn't reaching the geezerly ages in baseball. But is he worth $22M if you average the two years before that: 15 wins and an ERA above 4? There are at least 5 pitchers off the top of my head who I would rather have and that even includes Old Man-- err Big Unit who is actually 1 year *younger* than Clemens.

SI

[miked]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Yeah, why get all that money and then stay away from the team?

Just because you're good you should get special treatment? Maybe Pujols will stay at home on Mondays to spend time with his family. Sheeeshh... Roger is about Roger and he's been that way for years.

Yeah, he's worth $22 mil.

Actually, you're from Boston and you defend him?


Todd

I'm not from Boston, I just live here . I am a big Rocket-fan and believe his situation is unique from Albert Pujols (call me crazy). Just because you are good, you should not necessarily get special treatment. When you are a guaranteed HOF/best pitcher of a generation and you are playing for your home-town team for 5M you should get a throne. This was discussed previously when the whole whiny Barry Bonds "I don't get Clemens treatment because I'm black" thing came up, but most pitchers do not always travel with the team on their off days, so it really isn't ultra-special. I believe this is his way of letting the Astros know that if they want his services, after not ponying up for Beltran, they will have to pay more for it this time. No hometown discount to a team that is making few strides this offseason to really improve themselves (in my opinion).

[stevew]

If Clemens is gonna get the kind of language he wants in this contract, wouldnt he almost have to settle for a 1 year deal for around the midpoint? I would think that the generic 22 million arb contract wouldnt have any special provisions in it for stuff that he would want(ability to leave the team days where he isnt scheduled to pitch, etc).

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by miked

I'm not from Boston, I just live here . I am a big Rocket-fan and believe his situation is unique from Albert Pujols (call me crazy). Just because you are good, you should not necessarily get special treatment. When you are a guaranteed HOF/best pitcher of a generation and you are playing for your home-town team for 5M you should get a throne. This was discussed previously when the whole whiny Barry Bonds "I don't get Clemens treatment because I'm black" thing came up, but most pitchers do not always travel with the team on their off days, so it really isn't ultra-special. I believe this is his way of letting the Astros know that if they want his services, after not ponying up for Beltran, they will have to pay more for it this time. No hometown discount to a team that is making few strides this offseason to really improve themselves (in my opinion).

Nice post, and I agree... a tad. BUT for THAT kind of money I don't think special treatment should even get discussed. I know that's not the issue here, but I think "the Rocket" is sticking it to the 'Stros' even with his Cy young year.

Maybe I'm just sick of these whiny millionaires, but if I was in his shoes... who knows.


Todd

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Nice post, and I agree... a tad. BUT for THAT kind of money I don't think special treatment should even get discussed. I know that's not the issue here, but I think "the Rocket" is sticking it to the 'Stros' even with his Cy young year.

Maybe I'm just sick of these whiny millionaires, but if I was in his shoes... who knows.


Todd

That's the key, the shoes thing. It's impossible to relate to a guy with enough money for 3 lifetimes.

[JeeberD]

He's asking for way too much dough...

[Bomber]

You do understand that he's not going to arbitration.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

He's asking for way too much dough...

I'm a Rocket fan and I think he's really playing this wrong.

1. Agreed, he's asking for too much money. He's not worth $22m. No pitcher in the league is worth $22m. No player in the league is worth $22m.

2. He needs to shit or get off the pot. Either come back, or don't. But stop this beating around the bush thing. Personally, I'd like to see him retire - ride into the sunset on his horse. He's won 7 CYs, has his WS ring and a great last season...time to go.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Bomber

You do understand that he's not going to arbitration.

I would be amazed if the Astros let it get that far. This $22 million number is just something for the media to get excited about. Eventually he'll sign for one dollar more than what the next highest pitcher will be paid next season.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I would be amazed if the Astros let it get that far. This $22 million number is just something for the media to get excited about. Eventually he'll sign for one dollar more than what the next highest pitcher will be paid next season.

Even 18 million is way up there.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Even 18 million is way up there.

That's definitely his value though in this market.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Bomber

That's definitely his value though in this market.

Perhaps but if you are Houston do you really think with their roster that this is the year they make a run?

[Bomber]

No, but I don't expect the Rocket to really come back.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Even 18 million is way up there.

It's better than 22 million though which I'd say he'd have a decent shot at getting.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

Bill Simmons said it much, much better than me, but, unfortunately crappy ESPN has made his older material Insider.

so, I'll just say, I just do.

Here's some of what Simmons wrote on Clemens:

Originally Posted by Bill Simmons

Blue Jays, OK, but Yankees ...
Now ...

When Clemens ultimately jumped at a $28 million offer to play for the Blue Jays, we were jolted ... but deep down, we understood. Sometimes you just have to move on.

So what happened? Why the sudden change of heart? Why did the Rocket practically become the modern-day Sirhan Sirhan of New England? Five things happened over the ensuing three-year span that turned Boston fans against Clemens for life; if any of them had unfolded differently, the bad blood could have been averted:

1. The Slap in the Face
When Clemens signed with Toronto and held his first press conference with the Blue Jays, he only needed to take one minute out of the afternoon -- just one -- to say something like this:

"I want to say something to the Boston fans who stuck with me over the past 12 years: Thanks for all your support. I'll always remember the time I spent in Boston and I'll always be a Red Sox fan at heart. I hope you guys finally win a Series some day and I'm just sorry I'm not going to be a part of it when it happens. I wish things didn't deteriorate with the front office, but they did, and I didn't fell like they wanted me around anymore. And Toronto makes me feel like they want me, and they did everything they could to make me a Blue Jay. For that, I'm grateful, and I'm happy to be here. But I hope the Boston fans realize that I'll always remember them and I'll miss pitching in front of them at Fenway. Thanks for 12 great years. You guys are truly special."

That's it. Would have taken about 45 seconds. That's all.

Instead, Clemens spent much of the press conference stroking his new Blue Jays hat and showing about as much emotion as Mr. Spock. His only concern seemed to be making everyone aware -- repeatedly, painfully, flagrantly -- of how "excited I am to be a Blue Jay" and "how grateful I am that the Blue Jays have treated me so well." It was like they offered him an extra 50 bucks every time he praised the Jays. The members of the Boston media kept giving him chances to rectify the mistake, repeatedly asking him about his stint in Boston, but Clemens stubbornly stuck to his guns. He was moving forward. He was a Blue Jay. And so he brushed off every question about Boston fans, while we watched in disbelief, our anger mounting. That wasn't just an oversight, it was a hanging curveball right over the plate.

(And when we found out that Toronto had offered him the most money -- about $2 million to $3 million more than the defending champion Yankees -- and yet Clemens kept maintaining that he signed with the Blue Jays because he wanted to win a championship ... well, that made him a liar, too. Let the record show that Toronto finished 24 games under .500 in Clemens' two seasons above the border.)

2. The Kick in the Gonads
Suddenly and mysteriously motivated by the slight from Boston's front office, Clemens embarked on a rigorous conditioning program during the offseason, determined to prove Team Duquette wrong. He arrived for spring training in superb shape for the first time in eons, repeatedly telling reporters that he had never been better prepared to start a season. Of course, that revelation should have prompted questions like, "If you're so motivated this season, why weren't you as motivated from 1993-96 after signing the most lucrative deal in Red Sox history?" and "Will you be training with a feedbag and a vat of chicken wings like you did in '95?" but that's a story for another time. Apparently star athletes aren't obligated to get themselves in shape until they feel slighted.

Anyway, we watched in horror as Clemens rolled off consecutive Cy Young seasons for the Blue Jays. Here were his average stats from '93-'96 in Boston, followed by the '97 and '98 seasons in Toronto:

YR W-L ERA G IP H SO BB
93-96 10-10 3.90 26 186.1 164 204 76
1997 21-7 2.05 34 264.0 204 292 68
1998 20-6 2.65 33 234.2 169 271 88

Put it this way: Watching Clemens lighting it up in Canada was like breaking up with your girlfriend, then watching her hire a personal trainer, shed 15 pounds, spend 10 Gs on a boob job and join the cast of "Baywatch." If that wasn't tough enough to swallow, Clemens thrived against his former team, going 2-0 with a 1.73 ERA in four starts (including a memorable "f-you" start in Fenway in '97, when he glared at the owner's box after leaving the game) and dropping hints in the papers that Mo Vaughn should join him in Canada. Now it was becoming personal, and when the Boston media started hammering him (with longtime Boston Globe hatchet man Will McDonough leading the pack), the tide shifted against Clemens for good. We felt jilted, we felt used and we started rooting against him. Vehemently.

3. The Revelation
As luck would have it, at the exact same time Clemens was sparkling for a sub-.500 team in a foreign country, Boston fans were falling for two new heroes: Pedro Martinez and Nomar Garciaparra. Both of them were blessed with an innate understanding about Boston fans -- what baseball means to us, how we value players who play hard, how we revere players with a sense of The Moment, how we love when our heroes acknowledge us and say things like "The fans were great today" or "Nothing beats playing in Boston in front of these fans." Sounds stupid? It's not. That's Boston. We eat that stuff up.

The double-barreled emergence of Nomar and Pedro (coupled with Clemens being hooked up to the Rejuvenation Machine in Canada) made us realize that the loss of Clemens wasn't as important as we thought. If anything, the new guys were more fun to watch. And since Clemens was a self-serving, greedy jerk who didn't care about us when he played here ... well, this was war.

(If baseball were wrestling, this would be the point where Clemens came into the ring carrying the Canadian flag, shouting epithets about Nomar and Pedro, making unflattering jokes about Boston and forcing everyone to stand for the playing of the Canadian anthem. In other words, all ties had been severed -- he was an official "Bad Guy.")

4. The Ultimate Violation
After two losing seasons in Toronto, a disenchanted Clemens eventually forced a trade to the Yankees in the spring of '99, with help from an illegal "You can ask for a trade two years into this deal if you're not happy" handshake clause from his contract that drew the ire of the commissioner's office. It wasn't bad enough that the winningest pitcher in Red Sox history wanted to play in New York -- he actually cheated to get there. Even the staunchest Clemens sympathizers in New England couldn't defend him anymore. He had crossed over to the dark side. He was Darth Vader with a Texas accent. He was the enemy.

(By the way, if you're keeping track, Clemens was officially a quitter, a cheater, a fibber and a traitor at this point).

5. The Final Straw
During the All-Star Game ceremonies at Fenway that same summer, Clemens took part in the "Greatest Players of the 20th Century" introductions, where every living legend wore the cap of the team with whom they were most prominently associated. Of course, Clemens wore a Yankees hat because he had been playing in New York for a whopping three months. Here was his last chance -- I mean, ever -- to salvage his ties with Boston fans. And he blew it. At this point, we were like Michael Corleone in "Godfather 2" after finding out that Fredo knew Johnny Ola: "Fredo, you're nothing to me now. I don't want to see you. I don't want to know you. If you visit our mother, I want to know a day in advance. You're dead to me."

Or something like that.

[MizzouRah]

Good article McKerney!


Todd

[miked]

Ugh...what Simmons and every other Sox fan don't remember is that Clemens didn't want more $$ from the Sox, he wanted an extra year...the same thing Pedro wanted (a little better investment on Rocket).

In his seasons before going to TOR, Clemens missed a bunch of starts in 1993 and 1994 due to injury, but still managed to average about 9K/9IP. The Sox also offered him little run support.

As for the TOR "cheating" BS, I'm not sure what he is talking about. I wasn't aware a player couldn't ask to be traded, like Randy Johnson or whoever.

Instead of acknowledging that Red Sox management screwed Clemens over, they seem to think he made it his personal vendetta to lie, cheat and whatever to screw the Red Sox fans over. If I were him, I wouldn't wear that Sox hat either at an event in which he was being honored.

[Sharpieman]

I wonder if hes just trying to shoot for the moon and if he doesn't get the money he'll just retire.

[sterlingice]

I'm pretty sure that will happen. This is "pay me my outrageous demands or I retire". If he wins the arby case, he'll probably play, if they give him some crazy contract with a lot of weird stuff, he'll play, but if he loses the arby case, he'll retire.

SI

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by miked

Ugh...what Simmons and every other Sox fan don't remember is that Clemens didn't want more $$ from the Sox, he wanted an extra year...the same thing Pedro wanted (a little better investment on Rocket).

In his seasons before going to TOR, Clemens missed a bunch of starts in 1993 and 1994 due to injury, but still managed to average about 9K/9IP. The Sox also offered him little run support.

As for the TOR "cheating" BS, I'm not sure what he is talking about. I wasn't aware a player couldn't ask to be traded, like Randy Johnson or whoever.

Instead of acknowledging that Red Sox management screwed Clemens over, they seem to think he made it his personal vendetta to lie, cheat and whatever to screw the Red Sox fans over. If I were him, I wouldn't wear that Sox hat either at an event in which he was being honored.

He was a big fat tub for the last 2-3 years in a Red Sox uniform, aka dialing it in, and probably contributing to the injuries.