OT: Is there a good offline PC game of Texas Hold 'Em?

[kingnebwsu]

Celebrity Poker has scratched the itch, and I wanna try Texas Hold 'Em again. I do not have the funds to play a real-money online game, so that's not an option. I know fake money online games will never be the same, but I'd like one that's as close as possible to being "real." If there's an offline PC poker game with decent AI, I'd love to give it a whirl. Otherwise, maybe we could have (another) FOFC hold 'em tourney? I dunno how people would feel playing for fake money, but it may be fun (shrug). I like the tourney format, as it gives everyone an equal start (before the inevitable massacre ).

So yeah, any thoughts on either of the two queries would be fannnnnnnntastic. Thanks in advance.

[Calis]

Wilson Software

The best poker games around, but not exactly the cheap route I think you're going for. Can highly recommend their Turbo Texas Hold 'Em game and the Tourney game is a lot of fun also.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Calis

Can highly recommend their Turbo Texas Hold 'Em game and the Tourney game is a lot of fun also.

Wholeheartedly agreed on both counts.

[cthomer5000]

once you get beyond the awkward graphics, a very solid program.

I remember reading that they were working on upgrading the look for future versions.

[QuikSand]

Hmm. Never thought to complain about the graphics.

The graphical appearance of a card game simulation just doesn't seem like a high priority to me. I can read the ranks and suits of the cards... I can see the amounts being bet... what more do I need?

But then, I was one of those people who thought FOF 2004 was okay even without sound... so what the hell do I know?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Hmm. Never thought to complain about the graphics.

The graphical appearance of a card game simulation just doesn't seem like a high priority to me. I can read the ranks and suits of the cards... I can see the amounts being bet... what more do I need?

But then, I was one of those people who thought FOF 2004 was okay even without sound... so what the hell do I know?

Argh. I really don't understand the opposition to making something better.

The graphics, voices, and sounds of the game appear/sound as if 1/2 hour was spent on them. Many people would likely take that as the judgement of the quality of the underlying engine.

Giving the game a slicker appearence (and we're talking about only improving 1 screen basically) would likely help them sell a few more games.

[rockboy70]

Here is another one that is out soon. There is a demo available.

http://games.donohoedigital.com/poker/

[RPI-Fan]

Is there a demo of this software available?

How much does each program cost?

Thanks,
~rpi-fan

Edit: Note: Referring to the Wilson software.

[QuikSand]

Again, what do I know?

Originally Posted by Donohoe Digital site

DD Tournament Poker is easy to use, has beautiful graphics and features an advanced learning AI.

They obviously understand their market, and are wise to tout "beautiful graphics" before they get to any mention of the game's AI or claim whether the game is actually any good.

[MJ4H]

To be fair, there is a lot of criticism of Wilson's product based on it's AI and play quality in some circles. (like the 2+2 forums)

Another alternative (preferred by many) is the offering based on the Poki engine. Don't know a website offhand and am kind of busy at the moment.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Again, what do I know?



They obviously understand their market, and are wise to tout "beautiful graphics" before they get to any mention of the game's AI or claim whether the game is actually any good.

Do good graphics make a game inherently bad?

I understand your point, that the need for solid function is far more important than a polished look. But would the Wilson software lose anything by having improved graphics or sound.

I just don't understand the group of people who staunchly abhor the suggestion that a game could use a facelift. It doesn't have to take away from a product, particularly as one as simple as the single-graphic of a poker table and cards.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

To be fair, there is a lot of criticism of Wilson's product based on it's AI and play quality in some circles. (like the 2+2 forums)

Another alternative (preferred by many) is the offering based on the Poki engine. Don't know a website offhand and am kind of busy at the moment.

I have seen a fair amount of criticism regarding the play of the computer and the advice the game gives. Either Sklansky, Malmuth, or perhaps even both, have stated repeatedly that they disagree with a fair amount of advice the game gives and cannot recommend you use that portion of the game.

Still, I've never seen too much disagreement on the accuracy of the simulation engine.

[MJ4H]

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/win/30534

Poki's Poker Academy is a software package designed to increase your poker skills while providing an entertaining challenge playing against sophisticated computer opponents.
The software behind Poki's Poker Academy is based on research by the University of Alberta GAMES group in Edmonton, AB, and is well known to be one of the most advanced Artificial Intelligent gaming opponents available for Texas Hold'em poker. Using a number of cutting edge machine learning algorithms, Poki utilizes statistical modeling, neural networking, and advanced understanding of game theory to dynamically adapt its play and exploit patterns in opponents' play, making for one tough game of poker.

[panerd]

I would have to agree with Quiksand. I would rather my game designer spend five more minutes programming how a real player would play pot odds on the turn than giving me a busty blonde who giggles every time she wins a pot. Seeing the cards and the bets are all I need to train for the casino. That was the main question, right?

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I have seen a fair amount of criticism regarding the play of the computer and the advice the game gives. Either Sklansky, Malmuth, or perhaps even both, have stated repeatedly that they disagree with a fair amount of advice the game gives and cannot recommend you use that portion of the game.

Still, I've never seen too much disagreement on the accuracy of the simulation engine.

Yes the bulk of the criticism has focused on the advice portion. There are countless free programs that can run simulations, incidentally.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I just don't understand the group of people who staunchly abhor the suggestion that a game could use a facelift. It doesn't have to take away from a product, particularly as one as simple as the single-graphic of a poker table and cards.

I would absolutely agree with you, if the game had some actual defect. If the user interface was difficult to negotiate, if the screen made it at all difficult to undertand what was happening, if the graphical presentation was in any way inadequate for the game's purpose. I'd be in lock step agreement - the game would need a graphical upgrade.

But I don't see those things. (Perhaps we disagree there) I see a game whose interface and graphics do a 100% acceptable job for what is inherently a non-graphical game. I don't object to improvement there (really, I don't) but I have trouble with the notion that in giving an 11-word review of the product, one might spend 7 words speaking of its graphical shortcomings.

To me, that's a bit like saying that TCY was a lousy college football sim because when you go on your "diversion to Vegas" and play blackjack there aren't enough options for variable multi-deck play. Uh, yeah, I guess it could be improved... but is that really the point of the game?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

To me, that's a bit like saying that TCY was a lousy college football sim because when you go on your "diversion to Vegas" and play blackjack there aren't enough options for variable multi-deck play. Uh, yeah, I guess it could be improved... but is that really the point of the game?

While an amusing comparison (hell, give me single-deck and double-exposure as well), I don't think it's really fair.

I'm talking about the screen that you stare at the entire time you play the game, not one of a zillion screens in a game (and one that is completely irrelevant to the actual game itself).

[MJ4H]

Functional is one thing. Attractive and functional is much superior. Attractive but not functional is not good, clearly. I think everyone agrees with this. Some are just willing to overlook unattractiveness more than others. I am. I would, however, prefer the better looking product if two offered the same functionality.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I have seen a fair amount of criticism regarding the play of the computer and the advice the game gives. Either Sklansky, Malmuth, or perhaps even both, have stated repeatedly that they disagree with a fair amount of advice the game gives and cannot recommend you use that portion of the game.

Still, I've never seen too much disagreement on the accuracy of the simulation engine.

Do not use TTH's advice if you are trying to learn the game. They suggest calling too many pre-flop raises with dominated hands (that will cost you a lot of money in the long run). Also, TTH is too liberal with their starting hand requirements, especially with hands like ATo and KJo.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by panerd

I would rather my game designer spend five more minutes programming how a real player would play pot odds on the turn than giving me a busty blonde who giggles every time she wins a pot.

I was agreeing until I saw it worded this way. Give me a busty blonde hold 'em girl!

[primelord]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Still, I've never seen too much disagreement on the accuracy of the simulation engine.

The problem with the simulation engine is the results can be skewed by the poor play of the AI. It's hard to say after you run a simulation of always raising AQo UTG if it is a +ev play if the AI is not playing properly against it.

To be honest I don't see a ton of value in the Wilson product. If you are worried about losing money, but are willing to drop the $90 that TTH costs why not just go play the $.01/$.02 games over at UB? You can play forever on $90 in those games. And as you build up your bank roll a bit you can move up to $.05/$.10 etc. You won't make any real money doing that, but it will give you experience against real players. Specifically very bad low limit players. And once you are comfortable with it you can either buy in for more and play a higher limit or just keep building up until you have enough to play a decent limit.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by primelord

The problem with the simulation engine is the results can be skewed by the poor play of the AI. It's hard to say after you run a simulation of always raising AQo UTG if it is a +ev play if the AI is not playing properly against it.

To be honest I don't see a ton of value in the Wilson product. If you are worried about losing money, but are willing to drop the $90 that TTH costs why not just go play the $.01/$.02 games over at UB? You can play forever on $90 in those games. And as you build up your bank roll a bit you can move up to $.05/$.10 etc. You won't make any real money doing that, but it will give you experience against real players. Specifically very bad low limit players. And once you are comfortable with it you can either buy in for more and play a higher limit or just keep building up until you have enough to play a decent limit.

My concern with that would be the bad habits you might pick up playing against really bad low limit players (unless that's all you ever plan on playing against). It can be hard to adjust to higher quality opponents if the bulk of your play is against guppies.

BTW, I'm not suggesting the software either since I have absolutely no experience with it. Only pointing out a potential pitfall in the low limit game approach. My personal suggestion is to find a job that pays enough that playing at the table with the big boys doesn't break you.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Bee

My concern with that would be the bad habits you might pick up playing against really bad low limit players (unless that's all you ever plan on playing against). It can be hard to adjust to higher quality opponents if the bulk of your play is against guppies.

Well, it isn't that bad. I think you could do a lot worse than wetting your feet with the program.

Still, I guess we're starting to raise some doubt about it's overall value.

[Driftwood]

Hoyles Casino

Buy it.

Buy it now.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Driftwood

Hoyles Casino

Buy it.

Buy it now.

(prays he is joking)

[Driftwood]

whats wrong with it? I love that game! Good sounds, graphics, great tournaments...

[kingnebwsu]

Wow, thanks for all the tips guys. Yeah, the $60-$90 of these programs is more than I wanna pay at this moment. I've been buying way too many games lately. Maybe next month if all is quiet I'll pick up one of these. Of course, if I plop down more than $50 for a poker game, I want it to be a semi-consensus fantastic game. I'm DL'ing the demos and bookmarking all suggested sites.

Please, keep the feedback&thoughts coming!

[AnalBumCover]

Well, I have won enough home tournaments to be able to order Wilson's products (Turbo and Tournament). Should show up at my door any day now....

[pjstp20]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/win/30534

Poki's Poker Academy is a software package designed to increase your poker skills while providing an entertaining challenge playing against sophisticated computer opponents.
The software behind Poki's Poker Academy is based on research by the University of Alberta GAMES group in Edmonton, AB, and is well known to be one of the most advanced Artificial Intelligent gaming opponents available for Texas Hold'em poker. Using a number of cutting edge machine learning algorithms, Poki utilizes statistical modeling, neural networking, and advanced understanding of game theory to dynamically adapt its play and exploit patterns in opponents' play, making for one tough game of poker.

If anyone wants this program for less than half it's retail value shoot me a PM. Im not really into limit hold em anymore, so I don't have a lot of use for it, but it is the most advanced AI for Texas Hold Em.

[kcchief19]

hxxp://www.eaglegames.net/products/NLTH/nlth.shtml

This is an item someone brought up not too long ago. I've played it and a couple of others and it is much better than than anything short of Turbo. It's tournament-style, which is probably more enjoyable for solo play. The competition is very realistic and fairly crafty.

What it doesn't have is the play analysis you'll get from Wilson. If you want that, you'll have to pay for it. But I find this software will give you plenty of playing experience and help you develop, plus it's fun. I've seen it at Best Buy and Target for under $20.

[DaddyTorgo]

I too own DD's game. Picked it up on a lark at WalMart one day. It's pretty solid. The "easy" level is pretty damn easy...I even managed to win the WSOP with it. Stepped myself up to the "Medium" level, but I wouldn't say I have enough playing experience on medium to give an accurate commentary on how difficult it is.

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I too own DD's game. Picked it up on a lark at WalMart one day. It's pretty solid. The "easy" level is pretty damn easy...I even managed to win the WSOP with it. Stepped myself up to the "Medium" level, but I wouldn't say I have enough playing experience on medium to give an accurate commentary on how difficult it is.

I have DD Tourney Poker as well. I didn't find the virtual opponents in the game very challenging (even at the highest difficulty), which is why I'm moving to Wilson's products.

But DD does have a cool feature called "Poker Night" to help set up and run my home poker tournaments. It keeps track of the current blind levels, displays a clock in large font (which alerts you at the end of each level), and even suggests when to race off the lower denomination of chips when they're no longer needed.

[DaddyTorgo]

So I guess in the future I'm looking at moving to Wilson's. I think I'd feel better about that migration though if there wasn't criticism of Wilson's out there. I'd like to hear more reviews of FOFCers on it. Aside from the "advice" is it a solid game??

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I too own DD's game. Picked it up on a lark at WalMart one day. It's pretty solid. The "easy" level is pretty damn easy...I even managed to win the WSOP with it. Stepped myself up to the "Medium" level, but I wouldn't say I have enough playing experience on medium to give an accurate commentary on how difficult it is.

I can't speak about the easy or medium levels -- I've never played them. The highest level is fairly challenging. Based on what I've seen from the WSOP coverage on ESPN, I'd say it's fairly good AI. I use the "peek" cheat to see winning hands or to see what I folded to on occassion so I can improve my sniffing out bluff skills.

You will occassionally see an AI opponent bet big with nothing, but if you can call their bluff you can win. I think the best benefit to some of its tournament settings is that it teaches patience. If it had better analysis tools, it would be great.

[Bee]

I found the DD game to be crap. Way too many holes in the AI. The game has no recognition of play style from hand to hand (for example, you can bluff EVERY time and the AI never picks up on it). Pre-flop you can almost always pull a couple of the computer players into calling a big bet and then bet the pot after the flop and they fold almost every time (if they don't fold they usually go all-in and have the nuts or close to it, if they just call they're on a draw). All the opponents seem to have the same play style. There's no variance in the approach from hand to hand, so it doesn't take any time to know what the computer has. You can basically bully the table around with almost no effort. That's on the hardest level, I didn't try the lower difficulty levels.

I wouldn't recommend it.

[DaddyTorgo]

I do have to agree Bee. I found it very easy to bully the table around. Ah well, it's been worth the $20 I paid for it or so. Maybe I'll DL the demo of wilson.

[sabotai]

Bump. Was watching The Screen Savers and they had "Thunder" Keller on and he mentioned the Poki's Poker Academy software (that's been mentioned in this thread). I was wondering if anyone's given it a good work through and if they would recommend it or not.

[kcchief19]

Warning and a note: DD's game has been repackaged as Tournament Poker 2005 with Annie Duke on the box. Exact same game as the original DD game.

I agree that there are some drawbacks to the game. There is no AI personality; pretty much every player plays the same and you can't learn the AI player's tendencies. I haven't see, however, what Bee has noted on the highest levels. I see plenty of bluffs and call of bluffs using the scenario noted above even with the AI doesn't have the nuts.

If you have Wilson's game or you're an experienced player, it's probably not your cup of tea. But if you're learning the game and want to have some cheap fun, that's what it's there for.

[Maple Leafs]

So is there such a thing as a free hold'em sim, even one of so-so quality?

How do people get started with this game (short of playing online and presumably wasting the time of everyone you're playing against)?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So is there such a thing as a free hold'em sim, even one of so-so quality?

How do people get started with this game (short of playing online and presumably wasting the time of everyone you're playing against)?

Your best bet is to play on-line for play money and download the free version of PokerTracker to analyze your play (I think it stores up to 1,000 hands for you before you have to register). That's probably the best "free route". The play money games are loose and wild, but will at least give you a feel for things.

[sabotai]

Well, I bought the Poki Poker Academy Pro. Normally $130 or so, but it's still priced at $99 for the Holidays. I'll let everyone know how it is.

For those thinking of the Wilson game though, Acadamy Poker is just $39, more money but I'm sure it plays a LOT better than the DD game.

I'll let everyone know how the Pro version is after bit (just keep in mind I don't have either Turbo product and can only compare the advise to a few books I've read)

[sabotai]

Initial thoughts on Pker Academy Pro

1) Nice interface.

2) Can't set up multi-tabel tourneys. Just ring games plus single-table tournements. Not a big deal because if you're really serious about poker, chances are you'll be spending most of your time playing ring games and small tournements.

3) Can't edit starting bankroll for a game. It's either $10, $100, $1,000 or $10,000. Can't set it so you can sit down with $1,500 or anything. (If you can, I have not figured it out). Annoying.

4) The opponents seem to be good. Haven't really checked up ont eh AI yet but it seems really good.

5....

The advise. Well, it doesn't really give you a lot of advise. It'll give you a bunch of numbers, and tell you what to do with the hand. It shows a small pie chart broken into 2 options (Fold/Call, Call/Raise, Check/Bet, etc.). The more the chart is filled for one side, the more oftan you should do it and the less you should consider the other. A lot of the times it's filled in all for one option.

But it never really tells you WHY you are doing something. Most of the time, that's not a problem. Why should I fold a 42o to a pre-flop raise? That's pretty obvious. But a hand I just had, I have A9o in late position, there is one pre-flop raiser and everyone else folded. It's telling me to Call. I've looked at pretty much all of the screens, and while it gives you a bunch of pecentages, it doesn't exactly tell me WHY I should call a pre-flop raiser (in mid position) with everyone else out and I have A9o in late position. There's just no explaination given, just a few charts with percentages on them.

That's one good thing about Turbo (from the demos I played). It tried to explain why it was giving the advise it was giving (even if it wasn't great advise according to a lot of people).

Here's what it does give you.

You get a Hand Evaluator screen.

Pre-Flop, it will tell you what position your hand is out of 169 possible starting hands. It will also give pot odds when applicable.

On the Hand Evaluator screen, it will also give you the pecentages of your draws. The percentage of what hands you will get after the flop, turn and river.

After the flop...

It still continues to give you the percentage of your draws, but it also gives you the Strength of your hand (the possibility of it being the best hand against n oppoenets) and it gives the probability of your oppoenets hands based on the cards on the table (and I assume the 2 cards in your hand) (ie "10c-5h-4h-5s-x" is out with the river to come and you have As-Qd, your opponent has a 62.71% of having just a pair, 28.12% of having 2 pair, 7.34% of a three of a kind, 1.74% of a full house and 0.10% of having a four of a kind). That's for a uniform projection. You can also set a "table tightness" bias to the percentages. Altered based on the bias, 2 pair becomes a 31.20% chance for instance. Increase the tightness some and it goes to 36.92%. And since a Xx5x hand isn't very good in general, since you increased the tightness, the chance of a three-of-a-kind goes down to 2.07%. So the bias you can apply tells the program to make adjustments to the percentages based on how tight the table would play in general.

The AI is where the game probably shines. You can make a bunch of adjustments to the AI depending on the "bot" the AI opponent is using. Some opponents use the basic bot (Jagbot) and set its pre-flop hand selection (Loose,Moderate,Tight). Other oppoenets use Pokibot. The Pokibot's configs are Pre-flop selection and a slider for how "honest" and "tricky" it is pre-flop. It's post flop selections are 4 sliders (Tight-Loose, Passive-Aggressive, Honest-Tricky and Math-Model) with 2 check boxes (Use Implied Odds, Protect Large Pots).

There's also Xenbot, which lets you put specific hands into different groups (put 72o into Group 1 for and AI opponent for some laughs. ). And then Post-Flop the Xenbot has 3 sliders: Aggression (Passive-Aggressive), Implied Odds Estimation (Conservative-Liberal), Showdown Odds Estimation (Conservative-Liberal).

And then there are several other bots as well, each designed for something specific.

The PokiBot above is for Fixed-Limit games while the XenBot is made for No-Limit games. They have a bot named OddBot which is made as an erratic no-limit player The rest of the bots are: AveryBot (agreessive No-Limit tournament bot), JagBot (simple rule-based system Fixed Limit), Jambot (uses Sklansky's No-Limit Tournament System in his tournament book), Simbot (fixed-limit ring games, uses modeling techniques to predict future betting rounds), Sparbot and Vexbot (both for heads-up play. Sparbot use game theory to play a psuedo-optimal game with Vexbot will adapt to exploit your weaknesses)

You can also configure the advisor as well (which is a PokiBot).

So far, I'd say this ia a great Poker program. It's AI seems so far to be great. Very configurable. The one bad side to the program is that it doesn't really tell you why it's advising what it is advising you to do. Keep a poker book close by to see if you can look up the book's advise for similar situations if it's not clear why the program is telling you to do what it's telling you to do. It comes with a showdown calculator as well and keeps statistics on your hands played (but not anywhere near as in depth as PokerTracker).

That's all for now.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by sabotai

3) Can't edit starting bankroll for a game. It's either $10, $100, $1,000 or $10,000. Can't set it so you can sit down with $1,500 or anything. (If you can, I have not figured it out). Annoying.

I found out that after you start the game, you can edit the bankrolls of each player to whatever you want. So if you are trying to emulate Poker Stars single tables, you can set it up accordingly and then just edit all of the players to $1500 manually.

EDIT: Another little update. When playing No-Limit, your advisor is a Xenbot.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Well, I bought the Poki Poker Academy Pro. Normally $130 or so, but it's still priced at $99 for the Holidays. I'll let everyone know how it is.

For those thinking of the Wilson game though, Acadamy Poker is just $39, more money but I'm sure it plays a LOT better than the DD game.

I'll let everyone know how the Pro version is after bit (just keep in mind I don't have either Turbo product and can only compare the advise to a few books I've read)

i heard from alot of poker forum that game you bought is the best. Poker Academy pro...

let us know how it is? is AI smart, make good decisions..?

is this game limit and no limit?

i think there a patch out

thanks

[kingnebwsu]

$99? Dang, that's pricey for my tastes. I've spent less on my 2 deposits at online poker. However, if the AI is solid, I may consider purchasing it. My free time has hit the crapper lately, and a poker game that took less time would be welcome.

Thanks for all the info sabotai and feel free to keep it coming. This is the in-depth stuff I was looking for when I started this thread many moons ago