(OT-Poker) Jackpot Jay's Ugliness of Online Poker

[digamma]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...ovinger/041214

We've discussed bad beats here and we've discussed the possibility of online cheating, but I'd say this is a bit overboard.

As an aside, I usually find Lovinger's column to be average at best, from a poker perspective, but sometimes entertaining.

[Subby]

Thanks, digamma.

What Lovinger is doing (taking a year off to be a poker pro) sounds like a dream. The details of his experiences are pretty underwhelming, however...his columns don't have much of a flow from to the next, either.

Edit: And this is just a column about all his bad beats. Snooooooze,

Someone needs to tell him that a) you get infinitely more hands dealt to you on line and combining that with b) crazy fish that will maniacally bet anything to the river will give you c) ass-reaming bad beats.

The other stuff - collusion and chip dumping...are usually done by horrible players, so I wouldn't be all that concerned. Bots - eh - there are no bots out there that can hold a candle to a solid player.

Sites are not rigged. But the "pattern mapping" mythos lives on!

[JonInMiddleGA]

A bit? Heck, it almost sounded full-blown paranoid.

I really & truly believe that everything he's describing can be written off to one fairly simple thing -- there's a whole bunch of people, like me for example, who barely understand half of the terminology he used in that column, and we're the people who are generating the bad beats for him. We're doing illogical things, have no idea about the "proper" way to bet/call/raise, none of that stuff. We're largely winging it, playing with a style that's a combination of all the things we've heard/read/seen and the various misinterpretations that we've added to those.

We're not cheating, the house isn't cheating, there's just so many of those players out there now that when we win a few hands, it doesn't make sense to people who (ostensibly at least) know what they're doing.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A bit? Heck, it almost sounded full-blown paranoid.

I really & truly believe that everything he's describing can be written off to one fairly simple thing -- there's a whole bunch of people, like me for example, who barely understand half of the terminology he used in that column, and we're the people who are generating the bad beats for him. We're doing illogical things, have no idea about the "proper" way to bet/call/raise, none of that stuff. We're largely winging it, playing with a style that's a combination of all the things we've heard/read/seen and the various misinterpretations that we've added to those.

We're not cheating, the house isn't cheating, there's just so many of those players out there now that when we win a few hands, it doesn't make sense to people who (ostensibly at least) know what they're doing.

Yeah, perhaps I was too nice (my high school wrestling coach told me that often). Three bad beat stories and it's time to put on a tin foil hat. Probably more than a bit overboard.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A bit? Heck, it almost sounded full-blown paranoid.

I really & truly believe that everything he's describing can be written off to one fairly simple thing -- there's a whole bunch of people, like me for example, who barely understand half of the terminology he used in that column, and we're the people who are generating the bad beats for him. We're doing illogical things, have no idea about the "proper" way to bet/call/raise, none of that stuff. We're largely winging it, playing with a style that's a combination of all the things we've heard/read/seen and the various misinterpretations that we've added to those.

We're not cheating, the house isn't cheating, there's just so many of those players out there now that when we win a few hands, it doesn't make sense to people who (ostensibly at least) know what they're doing.

That's so true. I don't know half the strategy you're supposed to use, but still win sometimes... must get pro guys mad.

[Glengoyne]

I had to take a step back from online poker recently. I had progressed nicely from Hold'em noob to finishing in the money in a few online tournaments. I managed that mainly relying on my general poker knowledge. I have been playing poker for years, but really never explored hold'em until the craze really took hold a couple of years ago. Until then I had focused on 7stud and a little Omaha.

I rarely ever lost money when I played online. I typically doubled or trippled my buy in over the course of my sessions at. I was almost never eliminated in the first hour of a tournament, and usually stuck around long enough to at least have a shot at taking home some money. I did well enough that I could fund my tournament play with my tournament play. My friends described my style as ridiculously tight. Then I started trying to use some of the lessons I thought I had learned about Hold'em. Unfortunately my lessons were incomplete, and or not completely thought out. I found myself trying to play "position" more than I should have. I found myself thinking that a raise or re-raise was almost always in order. I started losing early in tournaments. I am all in when I have a good hand. I have lost perspective as to when I should lay my hand down. I'm constantly overbetting, and constantly letting the guy with the nuts or near enough to call my raises all the way through to the river. I chronically overplay hands like two pair. I've gone from Tight to Loose, and I didn't see it happen. I officially suck to the point that I can't log into a $10 no limit table without rebuying.

I need to forget what I think I have learned about Hold'em because I knew a hell of a lot more when I didn't know the fourth card was called the "turn".

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A bit? Heck, it almost sounded full-blown paranoid.

I really & truly believe that everything he's describing can be written off to one fairly simple thing -- there's a whole bunch of people, like me for example, who barely understand half of the terminology he used in that column, and we're the people who are generating the bad beats for him. We're doing illogical things, have no idea about the "proper" way to bet/call/raise, none of that stuff. We're largely winging it, playing with a style that's a combination of all the things we've heard/read/seen and the various misinterpretations that we've added to those.

We're not cheating, the house isn't cheating, there's just so many of those players out there now that when we win a few hands, it doesn't make sense to people who (ostensibly at least) know what they're doing.

I'll second that. I try and follow obvious rules, but I could easily be that guy betting the pair of tens even though a king is showing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'll second that. I try and follow obvious rules, but I could easily be that guy betting the pair of tens even though a king is showing.

Yeppers, that's me right there with you. But not always. There's not much in online poker so far that I'm willing to do absolutely 100% of the time (okay, I might not ever fold with pocket A's, but that's about it).

I'm still so ignorant that I'll play by "feel" in some situations. And it's working better for me than trying to play by any of the "rules" that I thought I knew going into it.

I'll still win some, lose some, and I don't do well with NL when the skill level is well above me (okay, I really suck in those situations right now). But I'm finding acceptable (to me) success with sub-$1 Limit Hold 'Em by simply playing in a way that I'm comfortable with -- basically trying to be just a bit tighter than the rest of the table, but not what the pros would consider tight by any measure either & by surviving enough hands to get a pretty good feel for what it's taking to win pots consistently on that particular table.

[Maple Leafs]

This article reminded me of the thing I hate about today's poker players: their insistence on using as much jargon and lingo as possible, at all times.

Look folks, poker is a complex game, but it's not that complex. You're not impressing anybody by making as little sense as possible. I know you want to feel like you're part of some exclusive club that speaks in code, but now that everyone in the world is playing poker would it kill you to just speak english?

(I feel better now. Carry on.)

[Subby]

Jon - have you ready any books yet? I was like you for a long time and then I broke down and bought Matthew Hilger's book Internet Texas Hold 'Em. It is a great beginners book and has a really nice starting hands chart that I use fairly religiously. In addition, it does a good job explaining pot odds and implied odds and gives justification for betting those pocket tens when there is a K on the board.

Anyway - just thought I would mention it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

This article reminded me of the thing I hate about today's poker players: their insistence on using as much jargon and lingo as possible, at all times.

Look folks, poker is a complex game, but it's not that complex. You're not impressing anybody by making as little sense as possible. I know you want to feel like you're part of some exclusive club that speaks in code, but now that everyone in the world is playing poker would it kill you to just speak english?

(I feel better now. Carry on.)

You sure flopped the nuts on that one.

[GoldenEagle]

I felt like I was cheated one time. A guy would say in chat A-K suited would be nice and it turns out thats would he get. This could be pure luck but he called his on starting cards four or five times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Subby

Jon - have you ready any books yet? I was like you for a long time and then I broke down and bought Matthew Hilger's book Internet Texas Hold 'Em. It is a great beginners book and has a really nice starting hands chart that I use fairly religiously. In addition, it does a good job explaining pot odds and implied odds and gives justification for betting those pocket tens when there is a K on the board.

Anyway - just thought I would mention it.

Thanks, I appreciate the insight. I haven't done any of the books yet, although knowing the way I do things, I wouldn't be surprised if I did eventually. Right now, I'm just trying to enjoy it without too much pressure of "did I do that right", probably won't start taking it seriously until at least after the first of the year/whenever work cuts me a little slack; until then, I've got enough "serious shit", I just want something to goof with a little when I have some downtime.

[Suicane75]

"lucky river, idiot" "You called a pot sized raise with that trash?"
"Nice chasing you ******" "nice flop you got moron"
"river saved your *** you ******" "I won didn't I?"

These and many more things ive seen far too often when playing. I tend to turn off all chat if someone starts getting too chirpy, I don't even wanna see it.

But the absoloute worst thing is when a guy with money chases and hits and then idiots at the table start berating him, apparently not understanding that we WANT that dude at our table as eventually he's gonna lose it all with that kind of play. But no, instead everyone starts berating him and takes his money and walks away.

[IMetTrentGreen]

I rarely ever lost money when I played online. I typically doubled or trippled my buy in over the course of my sessions at. I was almost never eliminated in the first hour of a tournament, and usually stuck around long enough to at least have a shot at taking home some money. I did well enough that I could fund my tournament play with my tournament play. My friends described my style as ridiculously tight. Then I started trying to use some of the lessons I thought I had learned about Hold'em. Unfortunately my lessons were incomplete, and or not completely thought out. I found myself trying to play "position" more than I should have. I found myself thinking that a raise or re-raise was almost always in order. I started losing early in tournaments. I am all in when I have a good hand. I have lost perspective as to when I should lay my hand down. I'm constantly overbetting, and constantly letting the guy with the nuts or near enough to call my raises all the way through to the river. I chronically overplay hands like two pair. I've gone from Tight to Loose, and I didn't see it happen. I officially suck to the point that I can't log into a $10 no limit table without rebuying.

you just described me. i turned my first 20 buy in into 1,000 in not very much time. i don't even play anymore becuase of how bad i've become

[CleBrownsfan]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I had to take a step back from online poker recently. I had progressed nicely from Hold'em noob to finishing in the money in a few online tournaments. I managed that mainly relying on my general poker knowledge. I have been playing poker for years, but really never explored hold'em until the craze really took hold a couple of years ago. Until then I had focused on 7stud and a little Omaha.

I rarely ever lost money when I played online. I typically doubled or trippled my buy in over the course of my sessions at. I was almost never eliminated in the first hour of a tournament, and usually stuck around long enough to at least have a shot at taking home some money. I did well enough that I could fund my tournament play with my tournament play. My friends described my style as ridiculously tight. Then I started trying to use some of the lessons I thought I had learned about Hold'em. Unfortunately my lessons were incomplete, and or not completely thought out. I found myself trying to play "position" more than I should have. I found myself thinking that a raise or re-raise was almost always in order. I started losing early in tournaments. I am all in when I have a good hand. I have lost perspective as to when I should lay my hand down. I'm constantly overbetting, and constantly letting the guy with the nuts or near enough to call my raises all the way through to the river. I chronically overplay hands like two pair. I've gone from Tight to Loose, and I didn't see it happen. I officially suck to the point that I can't log into a $10 no limit table without rebuying.

I need to forget what I think I have learned about Hold'em because I knew a hell of a lot more when I didn't know the fourth card was called the "turn".

WOW!! Your hold'em discussion you just wrote has been pretty much the same way mine has gone... When I first started playing hold'em I was very tight and one regularly- now reading books and reading a lot of poker shit on the net has changed my play and now if I make it in the $$$ it's a damn shock to my friends who I play with regularly. I try to change my style from session to session but still find myself over valuing my hands... hold'em can be very frustrating and at time don't know why I'm so damn addicted

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...ovinger/041228

"... as my faithful readers were only too eager to point out the weaknesses in my play, my attitude, even my writing.

Here's what they had to say:

(1) I'm paranoid.

(2) I'm guilty of over-estimating my opposition.

(3) I raise with inadequate starting cards, especially under the gun.

(4) I haven't sufficiently thought about the differences between the brick-and-mortar games I'm used to, and the online games I am now trying to conquer (or, at least, to break even at).

(5) I'm lazy. As Lucas of Denver put it, "After making the poker-writing faux pas of writing about your bad beats in the previous column, this time you made it even worse by publishing other people's bad beat stories. Please get back to writing a column that is worth reading. I know you can do it, because I used to enjoy reading your column. P.S. Can you think of another poker "writer" who writes about his bad beats? I can -- Phil Hellmuth." (Ouch, Lucas. You really know how to wound a guy.)

Here are my responses to the five criticisms: ...

It's a decent column, so I'll stop cutting-and-pasting & let him get the hit if you're interested in the rest