Ways to make good money at hattrick

[Airhog]

Okay I think most hattrickers will agree that money is paramount to winning at hattrick. All we have to do is find out how to make money, and we will succeed.

I see two ways to make money

1. Training and Selling players
2. Speculating on the bidding market.

Lets get a good discussion going about this. I would post more but I am tired.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Airhog
1. Training and Selling players
2. Speculating on the bidding market.

At the moment, I lack the patience for #1, so I am focusing on #2.

I think it takes a bit of time to become familiar with the "true market" for what players are worth, but once you do - there are pretty consistent opportunities for market speculation. Here are a few thoughts on what I've been doing - and I don't really consider myself an expert on this game, by any means.


-The way to understand what players are really worth is to watch what they actually sell for. Don't get misled by sellers' asking prices...unless they are met with an actual bid. (This goes especially so for keepers, where a sizable share of sellers simply do not understand the market and have unreasonably high asking prices that will simply never be met) You also may not rely on the game-generated "assessed value" of a player - though it is useful in some ways.


-There are a fair number of people in the transfer market just to speculate. Meaning that checking the "transfer history" of a given player is worthwhile. If you see a transfer for $20,000 just a week or two ago, and now he's up for $30,000 or $50,000 - remember what that says - last time this guy was up, nobody else thought he was worth what 'd hae to pay now. Conversely, when you see the opposite situation - a player up for $20,000 who recently sold for $50,000 or more - you should get the opposite message - this guy got someone else to pay more recently. Check the player's injury status and assessed value (has that changed since the last sale?) - but use that market information to your advantage.


-Keepers are a special situation, and not everyone knows it. Put short and sweet, the values of keepers seem to hover around these values:

Inadequate = ~$25,000
Passable = ~$100,000
Solid =~$200,000

The value of a given guy will vary based on his stamina, personality, and leadership (and of course age - very young players always command a premium for obvious reasons)... but those numbers don't vary by all that much. Thing is, the game gives an "assessed value" for every keeper that is far more than what anyone will really pay - so you will regularly see a decet young keeper, maybe rated "inadequate," who has an assessed value of something like $140,000 - and the owner thinks he's going to get rich quick by asking $100,000 or more. (Knowing that a nice young outfielder with an AV of $70K might well fetch that price) Wrong. Try again, three days later - that guy might get you $30-35K, if you are lucky.


-Hattrick gives you special opprotunities, by way the the different countries with independent markets. Each country presents a trade-off: the more participants, the more likely it is that you'll find one or more players that are to your liking. However, the more participants, the more likely it is that the players for sale will eventually find a true market price (eliminating the value that you seek as a speculator - I don't want to pay $40,000 for a $40,000 player - I want to pay $40,000 for an $80,000 player). I personally find the best solution to be the middle-sized markets... I frequently check out places like Estonia, Poland, Oceania, Canada, and the like - these are generally countries set up to handle 2700 teams - they frequently have pretty active markets, especially when they are at busy times by their clocks (mid to late evening local time) - that is, I think, the best time and place to buy players. If you're buying in Sweden or the USA at peak times, there is just an awful lot of competition - you end up in bidding wars over the "value" players too much for my tastes (and bidding higher and higher, remember, just means that you're giving away the value in the player).


Whew... more than I/you bargained for. Again, I am far from being a soccer expert. But I do have an eye for marketplaces, which is what I love about this game so far.

[Poli]

Very well said, Quik. I definitely agree on the keeper note.

[Airhog]

Well said Quiksand

Now I would like to add a few things to market speculation.

I know you havent been playing the game too long, so you might not be the best to anwser.

Do certain times during the year influence the price someone is willing to pay for a player.

We are reaching crunch time for Relegation/Promotion. It seems to me at this point in the season People would be willing to pay more for offense, and less for defensive players. Now I mean this on a whole, people are always going to look for good buys. But I think speculation has to take the psychology of the other people as a whole into account.

Now I think quiksand is right about over-valuation. I looked at the USA market last night, and it was full of players over-valued. Especially Keepers. The only players that I saw that were making an impact were IM.

Another question I have, is if you buy a player from estonia, dont you have to sell him there? Or can you buy a players from a small market, and sell him in a large market?

Regardless, Sweden and the USA are the two best markets in the game right now. If you can sell your players during the peak, hope that people get into a bidding war, then your all set too make some money.

[bbor]

You can buy a player in any market...but when you sell him he is sold in the market you play in.

[Poli]

One of the best things to do when selling players is try one of two things:

Try and start the selling for midday to late afternoon in USA...

or the same for Sweden.

I've done both with mixed success. I'd suggest the USA option first.

There are more chances someone could be browsing during the afternoon than late at night.

[Airhog]

It seems the USA market is Quite small compared with Sweden, or dutch or even england. With the increase of players in those markets, do you think it becomes harder to get decent players cheap, or easier?

Also are there difference in the prices between markets? Will an solid player sell for more in sweden than in the USA?

[Poli]

There's a difference, and barring specifics, it's basically because Swedes have more teams...therefore more cash to throw.

As more teams come about, it'll be harder to get quality players cheap...although one could argue that's not possible now.

[QuikSand]

As a related question... I see that I am paying 5% interest per week on the money that I owe. I don't really mind it - I'm getting a batter return on that money by having it tied up in players than sitting in my account... but I am curious - what interest rate do you earn when you are in the black?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Here are some other generalizations.

Defenders are easier to buy under market value until you reach the "excellent" range. Things to look at for defenders are defending (obviously), stamina and PASSING. I will take a passable defender with passable passing over a solid one with inadequate everytime. Remember in theory these guys set up your attack, they are the ones to get the ball rolling.

Wingers are interesting to watch on the market. For whatever reason there are usually a lot of them, and sometimes they get put in the wrong category.

Oh thats a super secret tip. Check who is actually on the keeper lists. Sometimes people put great players accidentally as a keeper because its the first option on the position list and they will forget about it and scratch their heads wondering why no one is bidding on them. Steals can be made here.

Some ways to make a quick buck in little under a month:

If you see an 17-19 year old with inadequate at whatever you are training dirt cheap then grab him and train him. When you get him to passable resell him and you will make a profit. Even with the wages you pay him over that course of time and the 1k you spend to put him on the market again you can still make some decent money. Some of the better clubs will not bother with guys like these prefering to make up their 3k by selling them. So you turn their piece of coal into a diamond. Of course you might keep him anyhow, but the opportunity is there for a relatively quick buck.

Oh just to clarify what this silly moniker a "daytrader" is. To avoid this garbage, whatever player you buy to make a quick buck, play him in a game then sell him the next week. If anyone ever says anything, just say you took a spirit drop when you grabbed him, got angry and put him back on the list. A majority of daytraders get burned because they tend to overevaluate the player when they put him back on the market an average of 5 minutes after they buy him. I actually get a kick out of watching these economic gurus in action.

I'll post more later when I think about it some more.

[Poli]

There is no interest rate when in the black. You can hire an economist(s) to invest your money however.

[Airhog]

Of the top of my head I think its 3%

[HornedFrog Purple]

While I am at it, let me clarify this supporter club/stadium size relationship.

Some people will tell you take your supporters club X 25 for your stadium capacity. This is very dangerous to do for a couple of reasons:

1. This assumes you are on a winning streak and will maintain it.

2. This assumes you are going to play every single home game in sunny weather.

3. Some clubs at the bottom of your standings will not draw fans to your home games.

A more suitable number is 17-19X your supporters club. It is on the conservative size but it prevents you from getting burned from the above mentioned wildcards.

I recommend never expanding less than 5000 seats at a time. If you do less, it does not pay off in the long run.

[bbor]

Why does it not pay off to expand less than 5000 seats at a time?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well the basic cost is 30k just to do it if you even add one seat.

If you follow the 17-19X idea you are putting yourself in a safety net in case you go on a losing streak or any of the other factors. Remember your arena costs also go up as you expand.

It's just a general rule of thumb, 4000 might be ok to do but the goal is to expand as you get better. It's usually just better to wait until you get near the 4500-5000 range because you will not get burned in the long run.

[bbor]

No wonder i suck

[HornedFrog Purple]

Hehe of course all the information presented was from someone who is probably fixing to spend his 3rd season in Div V. So it would make sense to do the opposite. At least when they add a Div VI, I can say I am not at the very bottom of the barrel although I tend to disagree. Maybe by 2007, we will be up to Div IX and I can point down.

[bbor]

LOL

[daedalus]

Originally posted by bbor
No wonder i suck

So many jokes, so little time.

[Easy Mac]

When do player's skill values change(inadequate->passable...)?

Is it after thee league games, or when the training changes, or the week ends?

I'm just trying to decide when to put a player on the market, as I need $$$ but don't want to do it too soon.

[NevStar]

When training changes. Also, I'd be wary of listing anybody during the day after the weekly updates. This is when most people do their youth pulls & immediately list them, deflating prices somewhat due to the large supply.

[Poli]

Agreed. I wanted to mention that as well, thanks!

[bbor]

Originally posted by daedalus
So many jokes, so little time.

Fugger

[daedalus]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Defenders are easier to buy under market value until you reach the "excellent" range. Things to look at for defenders are defending (obviously), stamina and PASSING. I will take a passable defender with passable passing over a solid one with inadequate everytime. Remember in theory these guys set up your attack, they are the ones to get the ball rolling.

Just curious (since none of my defenders have either passing or playmaking worth a darn), why do you favour PASSING over PLAYMAKING in your defender?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well from what I understand, playmaking is used on midfield, the theory being a good passing defender can get the ball to the playmakers with more frequency. When you train playmaking it only affects your midfield, where if you train passing it affects everyone. I may be wrong but I dont think playmaking has any impact on a defender.

I have a central defender who leads my team with 6 goals this season. 5 of them are from set pieces and penalty kicks and the other was from an event (whatever they call that).

[Poli]

Are you sure passing is for everyone?

[Poli]

dola from the site:
Short passes Passing Midfielders and forwards ((Others))

Double brackets mean very small effects.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Short passes Passing Midfielders and forwards ((Others))

But if I remember correctly they increased the passing levels frequency so you would not have to train it as long.

[Poli]

I think I tried it for two weeks, with only Sumner and Fernandez getting bumps. It might be for some people, but I think I'd rather train scoring. The ((others)) makes me weary. Have you had success with it Horned?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Not sure yet I just started 2 weeks ago. Last time when I did it for 4 weeks I had a couple of defenders go up a level. What I did was play them in the midfield in friendlies.

[DataKing]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Not sure yet I just started 2 weeks ago. Last time when I did it for 4 weeks I had a couple of defenders go up a level. What I did was play them in the midfield in friendlies.

I think HFP may already realize this, but this can be confusing for some of the new players we have here.

The players that HFP mentions here were actually considered midfielders when training occurred on Thursday evening. If a player competes in both matches during a given week (Sunday league matches and Wednesday friendlies), then his position in the Wednesday match determines how he is trained.

For example, you play Bob Smith as a forward in Sunday's league match, because he has solid scoring ability. But you're training defending, and want to improve Bob's inadequate defending skill. So you play him as a defender on Wednesday. When training results roll around at the end of the week, Bob receives training as though he was a defender, not a forward.

If a player only plays one match, then his position determines how he is trained. If he plays in both, the Wednesday match determines his training for the week.

Just wanted to make sure everyone understands that.

Now, as far as HFP's passing defenders idea...well...that's another story.

[Alf]

Has anyone here tried to make a list of player prices towards their core ccompetencies like QuikSand made for goalkeepers (which I totally agree with) ?

I think we could start such a project/table for all of us to get a better understanding of the Hattrick market.

[QuikSand]

Alf, it's a good deal more subtle with other positions... but it's not an insurmountable task, I don't think. I'd be game for giving it a whirl... with several people trying to pitch in toward data collection and ideas, this might be interesting to do.

[QuikSand]

Another thought on the transfer market... I think there is a psychological factor at work, which you can use to your advantage, especially if you are looking at low-level players.

The words hattrick uses in describing players make a decide break from negative to positive between "inadequate" and "passable." I think, to some degree, some players set a standard that "passable" is somehow a minimum threshhold for using a player with that relevant skill.

It's worthwhile to remember this on both ends of transactions. For acquiring players you want to use, remember that "inadequate" is simply one notch below "passable" - not miles apart like the -/+ mentality might suggest. Similarly, though, remember that a player with a rating of "inadequate" (especially in a secondary skill) might not get as much credit on the open market as he should.

So, in short: players with ratings of "inadequate" are probably a bit undervalued in the game... it's meaningfully better than "wretched" or the like, but since the term i still sort of negative, it's underapprciated in the market.

[Poli]

Quik, I've definitely seen this out there. You can get an inad for a song most of the time. Passables are a different story.

[Easy Mac]

Yeah, I've seen 19 year old with like 4 inadequates, and I'm the only one who bids.

I also like hustle guys, the players who aren't exceptionally skilled, but look like they can do the dirty work (Ben Olsen of DC in real life comes to mind). The kind of guy who is just good enough to play D on the wing or push up, and can run all day out there. I don't know if this is really factored into the game, but they are normally cheap, since everyone is looking for the best passing/scoring/defense. Sometimes these young guys like this can slip through, and they look trainable.

[QuikSand]

Of course, the passable/inadequate split may be a function of language... I don't know what connotations the words used in Swedish or other languages might have. But it's a meaningful effect in English, which is a meaningful part of the overall market I'm sure.

[DataKing]

Another thing to bear in mind, regarding perceived value of players, is specialties.

I don't have any hard facts to back this up, but the general impression I have received is that players with certain specialties (especially Head, Quick, and Powerful) are valued slightly higher than those without specialties. Technical specialty doesn't seem to make much difference, from what I have seen.

On the flip side, players with an Unpredictable specialty seem to be valued slightly lower. I guess managers would rather know exactly what they're getting from a player. I'm right there with them, but I have two unpredictable guys on my team (one is a starter). Neither of these players was purchased, however. One is an original team member, and the other was a product of the youth squad.

Just my two cents.

[NevStar]

I have 2 Unpredictable starters on my team.

One is a forward & the Unpredictable specialty has been an advantage for him, I see an event almost every game where he gets an extra scoring opp after doing something amazing.

The other's a wingback, and he gives me fits because he often does something boneheaded & gives up the ball deep in our territory. I could never give up Crazy Earl though.

[Easy Mac]

About half of my team is unpredictable, the other half quick. I just thought it described how they were in bed.

[Alf]

Hi all, I like unpredictable forwards too. They seem to create more opportunities (at least in match reports)

[QuikSand]

For what it's worth, my fledgling team netted about $300,000 in the transfer market over the last month... that's only looking at players that I have both bought and sold, and discounting the transaction costs.

If you're willing to study the market, and accept some morale losses from turnover (my team was out of the running for my division when I took over anyway) there is money to be made out there.

[Alf]

I am just starting to play with the market. However, since I don't know (yet) what players are worth (market-wise), I am a bit cautious.

300K => you made out like a bandit !