Barry Bonds, MVP

[Buccaneer]

With both Bonds and Clemens winning their awards this season is simply amazing to me.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

I don't think people wanted to vote for Beltre because we know he's not as good as his numbers last year.

Or because Bonds had one of the greatest offensive seasons in major league history.

[Buccaneer]

Something funny from Peter Gammons

Firing up the projector
And you don't think home runs are devalued? There were 16 players with 500 homers -- all Hall of Famers -- before 1998. In James' career projections, there are 19 current players who project to 500 or more home runs:

Jeff Bagwell (561), Adrian Beltre (555), Barry Bonds (918), Eric Chavez (509), Carlos Delgado (556), Adam Dunn (682), Jim Edmonds (508), Juan Gonzalez (534), Ken Griffey Jr., (620), Vladimir Guerrero (659), Todd Helton (530), Chipper Jones (510), Rafael Palmeiro (616), Alex Rodriguez (779), Scott Rolen (503), Gary Sheffield (569), Sammy Sosa (756), Frank Thomas (538) and Jim Thome (644).

Did you see that number???

[Swaggs]

It will be strange if, by the time I have kids old enough to appreciate baseball (if labor hasn't destroyed it by then), Hank Aaron's 755 only be good enough for 4th or 5th...

[kingfc22]

No way Bonds plays long enough or gets pitched to enough to hit 913. 800 is not uneachable however.

[stevew]

Which asswipe voted Bonds 3rd? C'mon, thats just unreal.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

I don't think people wanted to vote for Beltre because we know he's not as good as his numbers last year.

And, of course, the MVP award for the 2004 season has absolutely nothing to do with the 2004 season, and everything to do with 2003 and 2005?

Makes perfect sense to me.

Look, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Bonds had a phenomenal season in terms of personal stats, and it was good enough to get his team to the final weekend of the regular season. "But you can't hold the performance of his teammates in the bullpen against him," people argue.

Then, in the same breath, those same people argue that the relative strength of the Cardinal lineup disqualifies Rolen/Edmonds/Pujols from consideration because "anybody could produce in that lineup."

It still mystifies me that people point to Beltre's relatively puny walk rate compared to Bonds as the reason he doesn't deserve MVP. Hell, Vlad Guerrero doesn't walk either. I'm not saying Beltre is Vlad, or will be Vlad, but c'mon. The man hit .330, he set a record for homers by a third baseman, very nearly became the first Dodger to hit 50 in a season, drove in 120+ runs, and was basically THE reason the Giants didn't win the West. But Bonds keeping the Giants within hailing distance is more important than Beltre helping the Dodgers fend off that Giants' lineup, right?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

.
It still mystifies me that people point to Beltre's relatively puny walk rate compared to Bonds as the reason he doesn't deserve MVP. Hell, Vlad Guerrero doesn't walk either. I'm not saying Beltre is Vlad, or will be Vlad, but c'mon. The man hit .330, he set a record for homers by a third baseman, very nearly became the first Dodger to hit 50 in a season, drove in 120+ runs, and was basically THE reason the Giants didn't win the West. But Bonds keeping the Giants within hailing distance is more important than Beltre helping the Dodgers fend off that Giants' lineup, right?

No, the fact that Bonds creamed Beltre in just about every single offensive statistic that matters while keeping his team in the race is why Bonds was more valuable than Beltre this year. It is not even a close call which player was more valuable to his team. Beltre had a great year, but a great year isn't good enough as long as Bonds keeps putting up the kinds of seasons he has lately.

[stevew]

If bonds even had 100 more at bats instead of walks, he would have probably hit about 55-60 homers for the season, driven in about 140 runs, and still would have walked 132 times. Beltre was good, but c'mon, you guys cant be serious about him actually having a comparable season to bonds. If Bonds wasnt walked excessively, he may not continue at the same crazy production rates, but its likely the giants would win more games than even the metrics suggest they would.

[ShaqFu]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Clemens, because he didn't cheat.

He cheated the Yankees when he retired, than signed with Houston. Thanks to Clemens, his original team won the World Series.

[Bad-example]

If it were not for Steve Finley the Dodgers finish in 3rd place. He was clearly more valuable to them down the stretch. The Giants came within one bad 9th inning of finishing with the same record as the Dodgers. Barry put up truly amazing numbers on a team that contended for 162 games. It is truly stunning to me that anyone can seriously believe Beltre deserves the MVP over Bonds. The numbers are not even close.

[Crapshoot]

Exactly- I think Jeff Weaver should win the MVP, because without him, the Dodgers odnt make the playoffs- that's the logic being applied.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by stevew

If bonds even had 100 more at bats instead of walks, he would have probably hit about 55-60 homers for the season, driven in about 140 runs, and still would have walked 132 times. Beltre was good, but c'mon, you guys cant be serious about him actually having a comparable season to bonds. If Bonds wasnt walked excessively, he may not continue at the same crazy production rates, but its likely the giants would win more games than even the metrics suggest they would.

If you assume that instead of pitching aggressively to him, they're pitching scared, absolutely. Bonds is gonna get his hits, he's gonna get his homers, but I'm of the opinion that most of what he got in his limited at-bats were the results of pitchers trying to nibble, missing the corner, and suffering whiplash as a result. The assumption that he's gonna hit one homer in every five at-bats given 100 fewer walks is completely asinine - if he's being pitched to reasonably instead of timidly.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

If you assume that instead of pitching aggressively to him, they're pitching scared, absolutely. Bonds is gonna get his hits, he's gonna get his homers, but I'm of the opinion that most of what he got in his limited at-bats were the results of pitchers trying to nibble, missing the corner, and suffering whiplash as a result. The assumption that he's gonna hit one homer in every five at-bats given 100 fewer walks is completely asinine - if he's being pitched to reasonably instead of timidly.

Thats why i only suggested he would hit somewhere around 10 more homers given 100 reasonably pitched to at bats. I dont like the Giants, and Bonds is not my favorite person, so Im not a homer. I just can appreciate that he had one of the greatest seasons in history. I wonder who the 7 dumbasses that voted Bonds #2 are, and who the biggest dumbass that voted him #3 is. Those guys are just flat out retarded.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

If it were not for Steve Finley the Dodgers finish in 3rd place. He was clearly more valuable to them down the stretch. The Giants came within one bad 9th inning of finishing with the same record as the Dodgers. Barry put up truly amazing numbers on a team that contended for 162 games. It is truly stunning to me that anyone can seriously believe Beltre deserves the MVP over Bonds. The numbers are not even close.

We heard you the first time

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

If you assume that instead of pitching aggressively to him, they're pitching scared, absolutely. Bonds is gonna get his hits, he's gonna get his homers, but I'm of the opinion that most of what he got in his limited at-bats were the results of pitchers trying to nibble, missing the corner, and suffering whiplash as a result. The assumption that he's gonna hit one homer in every five at-bats given 100 fewer walks is completely asinine - if he's being pitched to reasonably instead of timidly.

your assumptions are based in what exactly ?

More so, the arguement that Beltre deserves the MVP because among other things, he set a Dodger HR record is inane- the offensive gap betwen Bonds and him is equal to the gap betwen Beltre and Furcal.