Video Cards

[Ryche]

I'm taking my second shot at building a computer, this time one for myself after my wife and I built one for her last year. My big hangup at the moment is what to do for a video card. I've fallen in love with the 6600GT PCI Express from all the reviews that I've read and would love to get one and I would like to get an AMD Athlon 64 CPU, but currently there are no AMD motherboards with PCI Express.

So I'm stuck with three options right now. Go with the 6600GT and a P4 processor, go with an AGP card and an Athlon or wait until the AMD motherboard I need comes out, although most of the info I find on the net says that will be the beginning of 2005, probably longer than I'd like to wait.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated

I'm not going top of the line on anything for the most part, aiming at 1000-1500 for the entire computer.

[Rich1033]

I cant help you out with a suggestion, but I do have a question for you. Am I right to assume that this would plug into a PCI slot on my motherboard?

My situation is that I went with just a Dell 2400 because I did not plan on using it for any gaming. However, now that I have switched to DSL I have some friends that are trying to talk me into playing online. Having no AGP slots has limited me to looking at PCI cards, which have mostly been crap. I would be very happy if this card could solve my problem.

[Ryche]

PCI Express is a newer version of PCI, so unfortunately it won't work in yours (or maybe it would, but the performance would be severly limited) PCI Express is the next step up from AGP basically.

[hukarez]

What kind of Athlon64 CPU are you looking to get? There's a few Socket 754's that are out there, but they released the new Socket 939 chipset. I think anything over the 3400 is Socket 939. Not sure if those boards feature any PCI-Express slots, though.

I did notice that the Athlon64 2800+ CPU runs for $165 in some places around my area - probably on Newegg and GameVE also, never checked. I think that CPU is a Socket 754 though.

[Ryche]

I had been hoping to get a 3400+, but from what I'm seeing for the coming AMD motherboards with PCI Express, they're all Socket 939. So I may need to bite the bullet and take one more step to 3500+ if I got that route.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Ryche

PCI Express is a newer version of PCI, so unfortunately it won't work in yours (or maybe it would, but the performance would be severly limited) PCI Express is the next step up from AGP basically.

PCI Express uses a different style of connector, so exisitng PCI cards won't fit. There's even different sizes of PCI Express connectors, based on the speed rating of the card.

[Ryche]

PCI Express uses a different style of connector, so exisitng PCI cards won't fit. There's even different sizes of PCI Express connectors, based on the speed rating of the card.

That's what I thought, but I hadn't even heard of PCI Express before a few days ago, so I wasn't positive.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Ryche

I had been hoping to get a 3400+, but from what I'm seeing for the coming AMD motherboards with PCI Express, they're all Socket 939. So I may need to bite the bullet and take one more step to 3500+ if I got that route.

Well, if you're a bit patient and don't mind waiting until the end of the year:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18469

I've seen the 3500+ priced for around $450 or so, I think. One of my friends found the differences between the 3800+ and the FX53 (or 57? Not sure) to be negligible.

[Daimyo]

I think you can go pretty near top of the line for less than $1500 (I've been "window shopping at newegg for something similar for a few weeks)

AMD64 3500+, socket 939 - $~360 newegg
Socket 939 MB - ~$140 newegg
Dual SATA 80GB HD (for RAID 0) - ~$140 newegg
1GB (512x2) Dual Channel DDR400 - ~$160 newegg

Still leaves $700 for Video card, DVD driver, whatever else you want to add on.

EDIT: I ordered a ATI 9800 Pro for $197 shipped from newegg yesterday. I don't plan to play Doom 3 (not much of a gamer in general) and supposedly it can handle just about any other current game at max quality. Plus it can be unlocked to a 9800XT relatively easily with a software upgrade from everything I've read.

[Ryche]

Yep, I've seen that article. I'd love to get a motherboard with 2 of the PCI-E slots on it, but the end of the year might be too long. I want my computer built by Thanksgiving at the latest.

I have seen some information that Abit(?) has an AMD board on their site with PCI-E, but it's not actually linked yet and not available. Crossing my fingers that one will be out in October.

I also saw today that ATI has a card equivalent in performance and price to the 6600GT coming out soon, so I might need to see some comparisons between the two before I make a decision.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Ryche

That's what I thought, but I hadn't even heard of PCI Express before a few days ago, so I wasn't positive.

Yep, and PCI Express is going to be the wave of the future. The current AGP cards are going to be the end of the line for that technology.

But that being said, I didn't feel like waiting for the new cards and MBs to come out either, so I picked up a nVidia 6800 card (Asus V9999 Gamer). Man is it great. No stutter at all on Doom3 running at 1600x1200!

[Ryche]

But that being said, I didn't feel like waiting for the new cards and MBs to come out either, so I picked up a nVidia 6800 card (Asus V9999 Gamer). Man is it great. No stutter at all on Doom3 running at 1600x1200!

I hate you....just kidding. That is a great card, I just don't think my wife is going to let me spend 400 on a video card, especially since the one we put in her computer was only 150 or so. Luckily I don't have games I urgently need to play at the moment requiring more than what my computer can do, so I have the luxury of waiting for a little bit.

[Rich1033]

Originally Posted by Ryche

PCI Express is a newer version of PCI, so unfortunately it won't work in yours (or maybe it would, but the performance would be severly limited) PCI Express is the next step up from AGP basically.

I had a feeling it would not work, but thanks for the answer. Looks like I am out of luck.

[Ryche]

The initial reviews for the ATI x700 seem to indicate it's not quite on par with 6600GT, but at least I'm seeing it available on some company websites. Still looking for an actual 6600GT card to be available anywhere.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Ryche

The initial reviews for the ATI x700 seem to indicate it's not quite on par with 6600GT, but at least I'm seeing it available on some company websites. Still looking for an actual 6600GT card to be available anywhere.

According to the specs, it's only got 8 pixel shader pipelines, and 6 vertex shader pipelines. Maybe the X800 Pro is the one that's supposedly on par with the 6600GT, with 12 pixel shader pipelines? Or it might be something compared more so with a 6800GT? Of course, the X800-XT is the big boy with 16 pipelines.

Either way - they're definately $400+ cards. How much is the 6600GT running for again?

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

EDIT: I ordered a ATI 9800 Pro for $197 shipped from newegg yesterday. I don't plan to play Doom 3 (not much of a gamer in general) and supposedly it can handle just about any other current game at max quality. Plus it can be unlocked to a 9800XT relatively easily with a software upgrade from everything I've read.

Done this. Not too shabby. My ATI 9800 Pro featured a R360 Core, and Hynix memory chips. Went ahead and applied aftermarket HSF and memory heatsinks prior to upgrading the card's BIOS to an XT.

Really need to be careful about this stuff, though. There are really two kinds of BIOS' you want to use in order to do so - a BIOS for cards with Samsung memory, and a BIOS for cards with Hynix memory. Before flashing the BIOS though - make sure you've replaced the stock cooling. The sucker'll overheat like crazy, unless you decide to just manually apply the Core clock changes with an ATI-tool.

One thing I've heard, was that the R360 supposedly features shader optimizations. Aside from that, nothing else in particular. Still pretty nice though.

[Ryche]

The 6600GT and X700 are both supposed to run about 200 dollars. I think the 6800GT and X800 are supposed to be comparable.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by hukarez

Done this. Not too shabby. My ATI 9800 Pro featured a R360 Core, and Hynix memory chips. Went ahead and applied aftermarket HSF and memory heatsinks prior to upgrading the card's BIOS to an XT.

Really need to be careful about this stuff, though. There are really two kinds of BIOS' you want to use in order to do so - a BIOS for cards with Samsung memory, and a BIOS for cards with Hynix memory. Before flashing the BIOS though - make sure you've replaced the stock cooling. The sucker'll overheat like crazy, unless you decide to just manually apply the Core clock changes with an ATI-tool.

One thing I've heard, was that the R360 supposedly features shader optimizations. Aside from that, nothing else in particular. Still pretty nice though.

I'm thinking about doing the same thing (buying a 9800 Pro with the R360 core, flashing the Bios to an XT, and adding a VGA Silencer Cooler) to get some better frame rates for Morrowind, The Sims 2, and my upcoming purchase of Rome: Total War.

I've noticed there is a 128MB version and a 256MB version of the 9800 Pro. The 128MB version is about $200 at Newegg while Microcenter has the 256MB version for $230. Any thoughts as to which is the better way to go?

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I'm thinking about doing the same thing (buying a 9800 Pro with the R360 core, flashing the Bios to an XT, and adding a VGA Silencer Cooler) to get some better frame rates for Morrowind, The Sims 2, and my upcoming purchase of Rome: Total War.

I've noticed there is a 128MB version and a 256MB version of the 9800 Pro. The 128MB version is about $200 at Newegg while Microcenter has the 256MB version for $230. Any thoughts as to which is the better way to go?

That's the exact thing I've got going on. A VGA Silencer Cooler Rev3 and some BGA videocard RAM heatsinks from FrozenCPU.com did the job for me. The 256MB version of the 9800 is a XT board, if I'm not mistaken. Usually 9800XT PCBs feature the thermal diode that ATi had going on, for their "OverDrive" feature.

I stuck with the 128MB - just because I lucked out at the local place that I pick my parts up from, for a good price deal. I'd go with the $230 9800 256MB, if I were you. There are a variety of BIOS' out there though - and don't forget to take note of the type of memory that your videocard has.

I believe Samsung and Hynix are the ones that are popular on those board revisions, though I've heard that Infineon exists on some. In any case, there are 128 meg variants and 256 meg variants, along with the Samsung variants and Hynix variants when it comes to flashing your BIOS. Since I had Hynix for my particular card's memory, I ended up using the Hynix 128 MB BIOS from Club3D. The other one is a Gigabyte 128 MB Samsung BIOS.

Supposedly, the PowerColor ATi Radeon 9800 brands are better - due to a slightly higher clocked Hynix memory rate. Plus, there are some things to look for on your PCB, to see if it's an XT board or not. If it is, then you're in luck for the OverDrive thing. If not, no big deal, really.

In the end - spending $15 on that VGA Silencer (which, ironically, seems to be of the exact style the FX cards had going on for them on nVidia's end) as well as $9 on BGA memory heatsinks did the trick. It's a nice little side project, if you ask me. I've done some overclocks and all - nothing dramatic like water cooling or what not, and my first videocard modification was relatively easy. I admit - I was a bit nervous, considering I invested $170 for my card a couple of months ago, but it was relatively easy in the end.

Hope this helps!

[TargetPractice6]

Meh, even with an ATI Silencer 1 I can't get my 9800 Pro up to XT speeds. I think my R360 might just be a dud...

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

Meh, even with an ATI Silencer 1 I can't get my 9800 Pro up to XT speeds. I think my R360 might just be a dud...

You clocking the Core, or the Memory? Before, my Core was at 337 and Memory at 377 (respectively speaking). Afterwards, I've been running at 370, 410. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty close to what's on paper, I'm sure.

BTW - BGA memory heatsinks are a must, for a BIOS upgrade. Unless, you're just fiddling with ATiTool and having settings started automatically upon startup...but I'm not fond of applications running in the background to maintain clock settings..

[TargetPractice6]

You have the core and memory speeds backwards.

My memory can go well over XT specs, but my core just can't quite reach it. After adding the silencer and ramsinks it runs solid with the core at 402 and the memory 375. And yeah I'm using ATItool. I usually let it run at stock and overclock it when I play a game.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Hukareze: Thanks! That did help a lot. Because of state tax at Microcenter it will end up being about $50 more to go with the 256MB version over the 128MB version. Both versions seem likely to have the R360 cores, and are returnable if they don't.

Still on the fence with this one. I wish I could find benchmarks that compare an XT with 256MB memory and an XT with 128MB of memory (flashed up from a 9800 Pro). That would answer the question as to whether it makes sense to spend the extra $50 to get the 256MB version of the card.

Originally Posted by hukarez

In the end - spending $15 on that VGA Silencer (which, ironically, seems to be of the exact style the FX cards had going on for them on nVidia's end) as well as $9 on BGA memory heatsinks did the trick.

You think the memory heatsinks are important? I've been reading that the memory doesn't get too hot when you flash to an XT as long as you've replaced the original cooler. Was your experience different?

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

You have the core and memory speeds backwards.

My memory can go well over XT specs, but my core just can't quite reach it. After adding the silencer and ramsinks it runs solid with the core at 402 and the memory 375. And yeah I'm using ATItool. I usually let it run at stock and overclock it when I play a game.

Ah. I just stick with the BIOS revision, and don't usually have ATiTool running at all. Just for amusement purposes. It's been treating me very well - I run at a stock 9800XT BIOS, by the way. I don't try to go even higher, as I figure that even the stock 9800XT BIOS is a bigger improvement over the standard 9800 Pro.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Gave up looking for the benchmarks. Ordered the 128MB 9800 Pro from NewEgg. Figuring that flashing a 128MB Pro to an XT will get me about half or more of the 10% speed boost to a 256MB XT, it just wasn't worth the $50 more to get the small difference.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Hukareze: Thanks! That did help a lot. Because of state tax at Microcenter it will end up being about $50 more to go with the 256MB version over the 128MB version. Both versions seem likely to have the R360 cores, and are returnable if they don't.

Still on the fence with this one. I wish I could find benchmarks that compare an XT with 256MB memory and an XT with 128MB of memory (flashed up from a 9800 Pro). That would answer the question as to whether it makes sense to spend the extra $50 to get the 256MB version of the card.

You think the memory heatsinks are important? I've been reading that the memory doesn't get too hot when you flash to an XT as long as you've replaced the original cooler. Was your experience different?

Personally - I think the memory heatsinks are pretty important. Of course, the downside to this is that it'll definately void your warranty, if you plan on exchanging - since you'll be using a permanent bonding compound to attach them to the chips. My machine's a simple setup - I think I have 'okay' air flow going through my case, and the blowhole on the top of the case does vent out heat well.

I've been a bit ancy about frying my videocard - I've had it happen to me before on a 9700 Pro awhile ago (stupid power connectors), and frying a component is something I don't like happening. In any case, I kept monitoring my card after the modifications - it was getting seriously warm, much more warmer than what it was during stock settings, and before the modifications I made.

I played a whole lot of FarCry during this (I know some folks like to wait overnight after a bonding process, I wanted a couple of hours) and noticed an increase in temperature. More specifically, the vent grill on the back of the case (of the VGA Silencer) was *very* hot the first time around. after awhile, it's been noticeably warm - and that's a good thing, since I know my cooling's working!

One of my friends back in Long Beach applied the same updates - though, he's a bit more hardcore and proper than I am. He's the type to "sand down" the heatsink and carefully "prep" the memory on the videocard with fine sandpaper for a perfect mold. I'm not quite as patient, and perhaps, because of it I might seem a whole lot more "inefficient"...but, eh. It's done the job fine for me, and I'm quite happy with this result.

Overall: The VGA Silencer only cools down your Core GPU. It doesn't form a bond with any of the memory chips, and they're pretty much solo. I bought a set of 8 BGA memory heatsinks (for each side of the board), and affixed it to the chips. This was the part that I was careful about - I didn't want to get too big of a BGA heatsink, since the VGA Silencer pretty much dominates one side of the board...but there's about three or so different brands that just fit perfect underneath the heatsink of the VGA Silencer.

I guess I applied the memory heatsinks pretty well - considering they were running warm to hot when I gently touched the side of the fins. I'll say one thing though - I haven't experienced any sort of artifacting when I play my games. On a side note - the chances of you having a R360 Core are pretty good if you have black pins holding your stock cooler to the card. I know the originals had "gold" colored pins that held the stock cooler to the card, but the later fabricated boards feature black pins.

Of course, you wouldn't know until you pulled off the stock cooler - but for an "at a glance" chance bit, I thought that was some good info to know of. There's a transistor or two that's along the board as well, something of a tell-tale sign if your PCB can utilize the "OverDrive" thing ATi had going on. I had a image of it and all, it's pretty minute. I'll have to rummage through my stash to find it, however. Good stuff to know of. Probably why I've stuck with my 9800 Pro -> just the simple tweaking and what not made it seem worthwhile to me.

EDIT:

Oh, here's another thing: Be careful when you're removing the stock cooler from your 9800 Pro. I used needle nosed pliers to squeeze the tips on the back of the card together. The thing was (probably the most nerve wracking thing for me, aside from affixing BGA memory heatsinks) that I didn't want to "scratch" the PCB or the like by accident, trying to squeeze that end tip. It'll "click" or something, I think. In which case, the stock cooler simply falls out. Once you're past that stage, I think you can breath easier. I sure did. Well, until the whole compound stuff...but that's another story.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Still on the fence with this one. I wish I could find benchmarks that compare an XT with 256MB memory and an XT with 128MB of memory (flashed up from a 9800 Pro). That would answer the question as to whether it makes sense to spend the extra $50 to get the 256MB version of the card.

Oops! Forgot to address this question.

The reason why I got the 128 MB, was purely because of cost issues. Now, a few weeks ago, I'd probably have said that 128 MB is all you're going to need for awhile...but in my opinion, it's always nice to take the future into account. There's a good chance I'll probably upgrade my card within the following year...but for now, mine does what I've expected it to do.

The XT with 256MB - there are BIOS' out there (you'd have to search hard for them, it took me awhile to get the Club3D one for mine) that you could apply to the card, I'm sure. Plus - you've also the advantage of that 256 MB memory. Here's the interesting thing about a 9800 Pro with 128MB:

The XT BIOS update applied to these boards, usually end up reading out as a 256MB videocard in your system setting. There aren't any official XT boards out there with 128 MB configurations, and since you're using an XT BIOS, it'll just simply register as being a 256 MB configuration. I haven't personally run into any issues like this, as I figured the shader optimizations in an XT were well worth the risk.

Now here's the thing I'm wondering about is that 256 MB version that you found. That's the Radeon 9800 Pro with 256 MB configuration, right? Are you positive it didn't have an 'XT' label as opposed to a 'Pro'? It's been awhile since I did product comparisons. Since I already had my card, I kind of stopped "window shopping" and all.

In any case, if there is a 9800 Pro with a 256 MB configuration, I'd probably go with that. You've greater odds of having the ability to initialize the 'OverDrive' stuff ATi implemented for XT boards and above. It's a good chance that the PCB that your 9800 Pro w/ 256 MB is actually a 9800XT 256MB board. If that's the case, it makes things a whole lot easier for you.

The memory issues, I'd look into. If they're the same brand of memory, and the timings aren't too far apart, I guess you really wouldn't have to apply any type of memory heatsinks - and just the VGA Silencer. But the thing is, the initial model of the card you would get is usually clocked lower than what you're planning on flashing it to. I guess I'm more cautious when it comes to things like this - plus, taking into account how long you play those games and have your machine running, etc...etc...

So if you don't plan on doing the "trade in" program that ATi offers, I'd go with the extra stuff just to be on the safe side.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Hukarez: Thanks for all the info! I'll let you know how it turns out.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Hukarez: Thanks for all the info! I'll let you know how it turns out.

Good luck! If you need any links and all, with photo guide style mods, I think I still have a few bookmark'ed on my home machine.

[Daimyo]

Somewhere in my research about this before I bought my 9800 Pro I remember reading that one company did release a 9800XT with only 128MB of RAM and that people were using that BIOS on their 9800 PRO's to get the correct memory setting.

The benchmarks I saw for the 9800 Pros with 128 vs 256 actually has the 128 versions a very small bit faster, but I imagine that's because everything at the time was probably optimized for a maximum of 128. I bet future games will put the 256 to good use though.

I still haven't tried to upgrade mine yet. With my current proc and mb it probably wouldn't make any difference. Once I upgrade those I'm definately going to try it though.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Somewhere in my research about this before I bought my 9800 Pro I remember reading that one company did release a 9800XT with only 128MB of RAM and that people were using that BIOS on their 9800 PRO's to get the correct memory setting.

It was a nifty little side project for me, something to while away those summer hours. I think I did this in July or so. As for the company - I think it could've been PowerColor. Wish I had a PowerColor card...but getting a retail ATi card for the price I did was good enough for me.