When'd Minority just mean Black?

[DeToxRox]

I couldn't remember if this had been posted, so if it has, I'm sorry.

Anyways, my question is geared towards the new NFL Minority Coach Hiring rules..

Why is it all minorities are black?

This is just making it harder for any Hispanics, Indians, Arabs to get jobs, because now teams are just looking at the African Americans.

Hey, the rule is a great idea, but it's sad when you are trying to promote equality, and only one race is benefiting.

Cocherane isn't out there preaching for Esk Imo to be the head coach of the Detroit Lions now is he?

I just wish they'd go out and try and get everyone involved, not just the Caucasians and African-Americans.

And one other thing..

If Detroit gets punished for what they did and Dallas doesn't, then the entire system needs to be redone, or put someone else in charge, because that's just a slap in the face to everyone.

[tripps369]

I've been pissed about this issue for some time, now. I'm originally from Detroit. So you know that I have suffered. Now we get a chance to get a great coach like, the mooch. Everyone knows that were gonna go after him, why would you want a interview wouldn't just seem like a huge waste of your time. Now I know that Denny green is a good coach but does anyone think that he would fit in a job like Detroit, with the problems we have. that would be a Hell No. My personal 2 cents

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
I couldn't remember if this had been posted, so if it has, I'm sorry.

I think there were two recent threads on this, that largely covered the same ground.

I'll restate my simple thought - there is at least some logic to the policy:

-The sizable majority of coaching candidates come from the ranks of former players (and there is little argument about the propriety of this being the case)

-The player community has been disproportionately black for more than a generation now

-If coach hiring were simply a matter of random numbers, we would expect to see a disproportionate number of black coaches

-Since we really don't - and maybe even see a disproportionately low share of black coaches - that suggests that something's askew


I don't necessarily subscribe to the ppolicy in place to try to remedy the perceived situation - but that's a fair and logical argument that supports the promotion of black coaches, and not other minorities. You cannot make (to my knowledge) the second argument above with other minority groups.

Again, I'm not defending the NFL hiring policy - but there is a very defensible reason why the attention is where it is, rather than on all various races and backgrounds.

[tripps369]

If people believe in the notion that you need (sP)diversification then when the NFl is a large portion fact, then shouldn't the NFL (to be fair) hire more White players. Come on it's the same thing white players don't get respect and often get overlooked to play certain postions. So if you have to have interview with minority coaches then why not minority players. True?

[Alf]

Yeah, let's have a mandatory 50% white guys play wide receiver

[TroyF]

"So if you have to have interview with minority coaches then why not minority players. True?"

Good try on the counter arguement, but no.

The question is if there are a large number of qualified white players who get turned down if favor of blacks. The answer is a simple no. I don't think there is a team in the league that would take a black retread who has failed at 3 previous jobs over a white player who has earned a shot. See, all of the players have a fair shot. Hell, Eric Freakin Crouch was given a shot to be an NFL player.

I can't imagine, for instance, a white player having great success in the league for a few years and then never getting another chance to play in the league.

I have see that happen to Art Shell.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Troy, I generally agree with you here, but I thought I would say something about what you said.

First off, Crouch was a third round pick who graded out very well athletically at the combine and displayed those athletic skills for four years in college at a very athletically-demanding position. I'm not entirely sure why you think his physical skills are so lacking that no NFL team should have taken a shot at him, and the fact that he went in the third round would seem to indicate that wasn't just considered a marginal prospect, but a bonafide sleeper rookie with some potential. So I hardly think that your opinion of Crouch--which doesn't seem to be supported by the facts--supports your implied position that NFL teams bend over backwards to give white players a shot at traditionally "non-whilte" positions.

In fact, tripp's is right, IMO. White players do get the shaft, especially at speed positions, and generally at all positions except for quarterback and kicking specialists.

I would guess that the minority coaching imbalance is a much, much more serious problem, but that doesn't mean tripps is wrong when he says that there is a stereotype that works against the white player at nearly all levels of organized football (and basketball, too). There most certainly is.

Chief Rum

[Blackadar]

Well said, Chief.

[the_meanstrosity]

Quik,

-The sizable majority of coaching candidates come from the ranks of former players (and there is little argument about the propriety of this being the case)

This statement is true, but it's also a fact that many of these players are wash-outs. Guys who just couldn't cut it in college or the league. Most of these guys cut their teeth as unpaid assistants in the college ranks.

-The player community has been disproportionately black for more than a generation now.

Not in the high school ranks. It's interesting that we see less caucasians as you move further up the ladder (high school, college, league).

-If coach hiring were simply a matter of random numbers, we would expect to see a disproportionate number of black coaches

Agree that there's definitely an issue here. But I still think we need to see an improvement not only in the NFL, but in the college ranks as well. We've seen a HUGE increase in minority assistants over the last 10 years and I believe we'll see an equal increase in minority head coaches in the next 10 years.


Good thoughts all around, but let's remember...that just because you're a player doesn't mean you're going to coach. Wash-outs are normally the guys who get into coaching. I think that's changing slowly though as new leagues like the Arena league, etc are popping up.

[Fritz]

ever try and cook something, but it is taking longer than you like so you turn up the heat all the way? Man, that is a good way to wreck some food.

[Bee]

You should use a microwave.

[the_meanstrosity]

Quik,

-The sizable majority of coaching candidates come from the ranks of former players (and there is little argument about the propriety of this being the case)

This statement is true, but it's also a fact that many of these players are wash-outs. Guys who just couldn't cut it in college or the league. Most of these guys cut their teeth as unpaid assistants in the college ranks.

-The player community has been disproportionately black for more than a generation now.

Not in the high school ranks. It's interesting that we see less caucasians as you move further up the ladder (high school, college, league).

-If coach hiring were simply a matter of random numbers, we would expect to see a disproportionate number of black coaches

Agree that there's definitely an issue here. But I still think we need to see an improvement not only in the NFL, but in the college ranks as well. We've seen a HUGE increase in minority assistants over the last 10 years and I believe we'll see an equal increase in minority head coaches in the next 10 years.


Good thoughts all around, but let's remember...that just because you're a player doesn't mean you're going to coach. Wash-outs are normally the guys who get into coaching. I think that's changing slowly though as new leagues like the Arena league, etc are popping up.

[QuikSand]

I'm not sure, the_m, if I'm supposed to respond to that. You posted it twice... so either you're anxious, or just having technical problems. (milie here to indicate humor)

I tried to couch my articulation of these arguemnts as just that - the above is not necessarily my personal opinion, for what it's worth.

Incidentally, I don't see any of your comments undermining the logical argument, unless you want to extend your argument to be that "coaches come predominantly from the ranks of football players so low that the share of blacks at that level is not significantly different than in greater society." I don't think there are stats to back that up... but that might be a perfectly good logical argument to make (though it may be invalid as a matter of fact).

As for your statement "just because you're a player doesn't mean you're going to coach" - I fail to see what this has to do with anything. Nobody would make the argument that this is false, and your statement of an obvious truth bears not at all on the logal construct that underlies the initial question, which I sought to answer.

[KWhit]

To be a successful coach, you do not have to be a successful player - you have to be a great communicator. A coach has to motivate and train players. and communicate with assistants.

A coach is basically a manager of people. Of course, he needs excellent knowledge of the sport as well.

I personally believe that black people are generally better athletes. Isn't it possible that white people are better communicators and managers of people? And therefore are more effective in hiring interviews and make more effective coaches?

And by the way, I hate generalizations with regard to race. HATE THEM! And I wouldn't usually make such a generalization (and don't entirely believe the one above). However, when Cochran, etc. state the position that "because there are so many black players means that there should be more black coaches" I need to point out that it is not the same thing.

[TroyF]

Chief,

You really feel that white guys get the shaft when it comes to the skill positions? I mean, there's like 200 white guys with 4.3 speed, great hands, and great hip turns who don't get a look because they are white? I mean, you really belive this?

Eric Crouch had the same chance Antwone Randle El, Hines Ward and Rod Smith had. He chose to give up on it. I don't see any discrimination in the white/black player thing. If you do, you are right to disagree with me because I just don't see any evidence to support the claim. If Charles Rogers were white, I don't think he'd slip 15 spots in the draft. If Marvin Lewis were white, he'd have had a head coaching positioin 3 years ago.


KWhit,

The issue is wheather or not blacks have had the chance to prove themselves as effective coaches. The early evidence, from the few who have coached, suggests they do just fine managing people when given the chance. Dennis Green, Art Shell, Tony Dungy (who looks like he's the next Shcottenheimer, regular season wonder/playoff failure) and others have faired quite well. Ray Rhodes didn't.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by TroyF
Chief,

You really feel that white guys get the shaft when it comes to the skill positions? I mean, there's like 200 white guys with 4.3 speed, great hands, and great hip turns who don't get a look because they are white? I mean, you really belive this?

Yes, I really do believe this, and maybe if you keep repeating it in question form in an incredulous tone, I'll finally get the sense of your utter disbelief.

I don't think you see it too much at the level of the NFL combine and draft worthy prospects. By then, many of the better physically imposing white players have been weeded out because of several levels of a stereotype to overcome.

As you know, we also currently have a difference in wealth between races. A higher percentage of whites are decent to well off, while a higher percentage of minorities are not so well off. This is due to a lot of factors, such as, of course, racism and the natural course of societal evolution, at least in this country.

For many minorities, athletics is the only way out. So they'll stick with it as long as they can. For many whites, it may be just something they do while they are on their way to something else. If they face one instance of not starting for their high school team, or not being recruited enough, they are likely to give it all up and go to Plan B, which is often a paid visit to a college by the parents, who can afford to do so.

My point is that I can see some validity to tripps' point that a white player is stereotypically regarded as having less athletic ability than a black player, and not given as much of a chance early on in his football career to show what he can do. And since white players usually have other options besides athletics (thanks to economic opportunities that are sadly not really present for most minorities), only a little bit of an obstacle is needed before they quit football, or decide not to pursue it in college, or whatever.

So, please, next time you represent my opinion, get it right, okay? I am merely stating that the stereotype exists as tripps suggests, and that it is logical to assume that if it exists, it is likely a hindrance to younger white players at many different levels of football. Nothing more.

Eric Crouch had the same chance Antwone Randle El, Hines Ward and Rod Smith had. He chose to give up on it. I don't see any discrimination in the white/black player thing. If you do, you are right to disagree with me because I just don't see any evidence to support the claim. If Charles Rogers were white, I don't think he'd slip 15 spots in the draft. If Marvin Lewis were white, he'd have had a head coaching positioin 3 years ago.

(yes, my opinion, take it for what it's worth)

He chose to give up on it because he didn't want to do it. I didn't say he faced racism or anything. In fact, to my point, him leaving football is irrelevant to this discussion. My point was wondering why you thought he mattered. My impression is that you felt he got a chance because he is white, not because he had skills. I merely pointed out to you that he does indeed have skills, so if you were looking for Crouch to be the banner boy for your belief that white players get an extra shot at playing that they don't deserve, you picked the wrong guy.

There was no discrimination in Crouch's time in the NFL to my knowledge, and I never tried to make that supposition. I have no idea why he quit football. I was just attacking your inference that he got a shot because he is white. I think you're wrong. He got a shot because he is skilled.

I generally agree with you on Marvin Lewis. I don't agree with you on Charles Rogers. I believe he wouldn't be considered head-and-shoulders above the other receivers in this group if he were white. I don't know that he would drop 15 spots in the draft, because the physical talent would still be obvious, but I believe he would then have an equal chance to be taken as high as some of the other elite receivers in this draft, rather than obviously being ahead of them.

You would say that people are blind to the obvious racism at the coaching level (since not everyone agrees with you on the NFL's history of hiring minorities), and yet you can't see that the opposite might be true at the player level? Why not? The indications are all there. Or do you think that it's normal that 60-70% of football players and 85% or more of basketball players are black?

And, yes, I know it's your opinion. My impression from your opening, though, is that you don't have all that high of an opinion of MY opinion. And you also missed my point completely. Troy, you're a good guy and I regret to see you haven't been around as much anymore. But I thought I would let you know that I haven't changed. When people misrepresent my opinion, it really pisses me off. Please don't do that again.

Chief Rum

[rkmsuf]

I generally agree with you on Marvin Lewis. I don't agree with you on Charles Rogers. I believe he wouldn't be considered head-and-shoulders above the other receivers in this group if he were white. I don't know that he would drop 15 spots in the draft, because the physical talent would still be obvious, but I believe he would then have an equal chance to be taken as high as some of the other elite receivers in this draft, rather than obviously being ahead of them.

Anyone possessing the tools and demonstrated production would be regarded highly. What is an example of a white receiver with this size, speed and production dissed?

I wouldn't agree that options for white players represents discrimination per say. Just because a white receiver decides to pursue something else doesn't mean the system is discriminatory.

How many white atheletes are winning the 100 meter dash? How many are on our Olympic relay team? Speed is the name of the game at receiver...would you say track is discriminatory?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Anyone possessing the tools and demonstrated production would be regarded highly. What is an example of a white receiver with this size, speed and production dissed?

I wouldn't agree that options for white players represents discrimination per say. Just because a white receiver decides to pursue something else doesn't mean the system is discriminatory.

How many white atheletes are winning the 100 meter dash? How many are on our Olympic relay team? Speed is the name of the game at receiver...would you say track is discriminatory?

If you are willing to say that race plays a role in physical activites, why would not also conclude that it may play a role in other places as well?

[cody8200]

I would say that who ever has the most talent should be coach. That mean if that person is black, white, hispanic, or canadian than he should be coach. It shouldn't be forced ona team to try and have a black coach when they think that the best coach for their team is a white coach. As far as white players...they make up what??? maybe 20 to 25 percent of the NFL and about 60 percent of the entire nation. Of course they do not get equal representation. Its the same in pro basketball. But the reason for that is a very good one. There are not as many talented white football players as black football players. I mean in pro basketball its some ridiculous number like only 5 percent are white...but I don't hear Johnny Cochran talking about that.

[rkmsuf]

If you are willing to say that race plays a role in physical activites, why would not also conclude that it may play a role in other places as well?

I would tend to agree however it is somewhat interesting that with the heightened awareness of affimative action that white coaches at least by the number of hirings seem to be regarded as the best motivators of a majority of black players...

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
In fact, tripp's is right, IMO. White players do get the shaft, especially at speed positions, and generally at all positions except for quarterback and kicking specialists.

White players get the shaft at speed positions because they don't have any...speed. At least in relative terms. Do you really think teams overlook speedy white players who can help them in favor of black players with less speed?

I agree with TroyF.

[panerd]

Rich Brooks, David Shula, Dick LaBeau, Dennis Erickson, Chris Plamer, Marty Mornhinwig, Bruce Coslet, Mike Martz (personal opinion on this one), Jack Del Rio, etc.

Nobody in their right mind can argue that the most qualifed canidates are getting the coaching jobs. But I think it is more of the old school coaching network than discrimination. Unfortunatly the qulaity coaches (white & black) are being ignored so that some idiot like Bruce Coslet can fail with his 23rd different team.

This would be like arguing about a black president. I am sure a lot of qualifed black men are being passed over for President, but there are an equal number of qualified whites being passed over also. Even a republican can not argue that George W. Bush is the best this country has to offer!

[Fritz]

From the 2001 NFL Almanac.

First 6 teams listed

6 Head Coaches

1 was a Pro Player
5 played no higher than college*

4 hold Masters degrees
1 holds a bachelors
1 I am not sure about, could be did not graduate (Lebeau)

---
28 Assistants Played at pro level
51 played no higher than college*
15 did not play at any level higher than HS.

* Pro means at least 1 credited year of NFL service. Drafted and cut, or other pro league not counted.


Though this is far from conclusive, I would suggest that education might be part of the formula. Perhaps Billionaire businessmen want educated people running the show.

[Chief Rum]

See, that's it, KSyrup. You have stated the stereotype right there.

It is your belief that white players don't have the speed that black players do. Now, how much of that is actual fact, and how much of that is your assumption, based on a stereotype?

I do think that the average black player may have more athleticism than the average white player for historical reasons. The large majority of the our black population are descended from slaves, who were put through a modern day "natural selection" by the tough lives slaves were forced to lead. So because of such, I can see that African-American athletes might have a slight genetic advantage over other races that did not go through a lengthy period of racial history where physical prowess was the ultimate factor in whether you lived or not.

However, I do believe that this is slight, and that the high percentages of minorities that we see in football and basketball are more a result of the stereotype of the black athlete and the reasonable cultural choices given to different ethnicities than because of truly higher quality physical skills.

But once again, that is just my opinion. I don't know if any studies have actually been done on the relative physical or mental skills of different races.

Chief Rum

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Fritz

Though this is far from conclusive, I would suggest that education might be part of the formula. Perhaps Billionaire businessmen want educated people running the show.

This is what I was getting at.

It is okay to say that black people are generally better athletes than white people. But as soon as anyone suggests that a white person is better at something (in this case, communication and leadership) they are labeled racist. I'm not saying that anyone in this thread has cried racism, but it happens all too often from the likes of Cochran.

[TroyF]

Chief,

I am stunned by your opinion. I really can't see some white guy with the skills of Charles Rogers getting the shaft or even being treated as the equal of Taylor Jacobs.

The other factors you mention? I'm stunned there as well. 4.3 speed doesn't grow on trees. It can't be taught. Why would a high school, junior high, or even pee wee league coach make an assessment that the fastest player on his team can't play WR or CB because he's white? Wait, don't answer that. . . An incredulas question when I'm obviously stunned makes the question an unimportant and invalid one. . .

BTW: There have been studies conducted on the black/white issue with athletic ability. Bill James did one which suggested that black baseball players seem to hold their speed longer than their white counterparts. There are others as well if you want to read up.

KWhit,

I'm not labeling you a racist because you suggest a white person is better at something. As Chief stated above, many other factors go into which type of person, let alone race, go into the life skills we possess.

My point is on the simple premise that the opprotunity should be the same. I don't think it is. I can't imagine an NFL GM looking over a guy and saying "Well, gee, this guy is 6'4", runs a 4.3 40, has terrific hands and an incredible vertical + he's got a great attitude. . . it sure is a pitty he's white. I think I'll pick up this black guy who's 2 inches shorter and runs a 4.6"

I think the evidence is overwhelming that athletic directors and owners have taken that attitude in their hiring practices of coaches over the years.

As for Cochran, Jackson, and Sharpton. . . they drive me up the wall. To them everything is racism, wheather there is evidence to back it up or not.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Troy, what I am trying to get through to you is that I believe there is a stereotype of the athleticism of a black athlete over a white one, above and beyond whatever small differences there actually are between the two.

You're acting like the lower level coaches are all putting their players through combine style tests and stuff. At high school and lower, they pretty much ask you where you want to play and throw you out there in practice, and see what comes out.

What I am saying is that when it comes to players, if someone making the decisions has to decide between a black player or a white player of comparable skills, he will more often than not go with the black player, especially at skill positions. A black player who looks the part will get every chance to prove he ain't the guy, but the white player will have to prove he deserves a shot before he gets one.

tripps is saying he believes this stereotype is in place, and you responded by bringing up a seemingly irrelevant Eric Crouch (in fact, you still haven't shown how he's relevant to the point at hand). I am saying I agree with him.

It is amazing to me that you can ignore such huge percentages at both the pro and Division I college level in both football and basketball and not see that there might be some stereotyping problems here. What's really funny to me is that you see essentially the same thing in coaching (but in favor of whites) and you scream racism, and yet something else that is just as obvious, you just dismiss out of hand.

Chief Rum

[JasonTobiasIV]

I was just asking myself why we are so stupid. Especially me.

Blue eyed white devils who are physically inferior.

-

Racism is classism is free market capitalism.

how? the same way x mas = christmas.

it doesnt. but if i have money and im purple shit goes good and my kids can open a business with there trust fund. Thats if they dont blow it all on nitrous oxide and jelly beans.

-

The rich are REALLY rich sometimes. Other times they are just rich enough that the bank takes them to breakfest on occasion. Banquets and balls. Two balls. Testicals.

A rich man doesnt want to hear about fitting camels through the eye of the needle.

-

To sum it up, trying to change what hasn't been defined correctly makes it easier to smoke screen the obvious. We should be mad for what we dont know yet. Television wont tell you, but I will. Kill your TV and stay here in this thread. Dont move. You never know when the truth will hit you right in the balls so hard you fall over in a delayed reaction after walking a few steps.

[EagleFan]

I agree with Jason.

Actually I have to agree a little with both sides of the arguement but there are also many factors at work here.

First is that it had been that way for a long period of time. The percentage of black athletes have greatly increased over time and coaches have generally come through the ranks. You see that in the lower ranks there is an increasing percentage of black coaches. That is the natural step. The white coaches didn;t just walk into an NFL office and say, I want to coach your team and get handed a job without coming up through the ranks in one way or another.

Second, why is it okay to generalize that blacks are better athletes but it's not okay to generalize that it's possible that whites might have an advantage in some way at coaching. I'm not saying this is the case but you cannot seperate those arguements once you come out and say that blacks are better athletes.

As it was stated before, many of the coaches are washed out athletes. The idea of those who can, do and those who can't, teach. The arguement of blacks being better athletes again supports this kind of philosophy.

Also, am I the only one that feels uncomforatble when a black athlete is described as athletic yet a white one is described as a throw back? Why is it that white athletes can't be considered to be athletic? It's sort of like saying "that white guy really doesn;t have the skills, it's his grit that actually gives him a chance."

I've always said, best person for the job. White, black, green, orange, whatever...

Realize that things are changing but it will be a slow change. It's not like the younger generation is in complete control of the corporations yet. Many of those in control grew up in a different time, a time when they were taught racism from the womb. That's not easy to break. As those who have accepted a world of people with differences age and become the majority of the leaders of the country and corportations we will see things balance out like it should. The only setback continues to be those who see problems around every corner. When someone cries wolf too much there is a much more likely chance that people who are on the fence about these situations will be pushed off the fence the wrong way, thus setting things back a little farther.

Example of my on the fence theory. I was with a friend of mine in the car, he was driving. He is black and that has nothing to do with the following statement, he drives like a maniac. That is a personal attribute that has nothing to do with his race. We were heading to meet some other friends at a club. He was doing 90 and got stopped and ticketed. When we got to the club he was complaining all night about how he was only stopped because he was black. Others heard this and some started to join into the conversation and believe him whole heartedly that he was only stopped for that reason. I know why he got stopped, incidently one part of the story he never told is that is was a black cop that stopped us. He got stopped for doing 35 miles an hour over the speed limit. In his mind it seemed to be that it was racism (still confused since it was a black cop), in the people that left that conversation they now picture white cop stopping black driver because of racism. I now leave there getting fed up with the racism arguement. This kind of thing now causes me to be skeptical about these kind of claims and it the more claims like that some black people may hear, but not be told the whole story, may start to lean towards immediately believing racism.

I am not saying that is the case with all whites or all blacks. But there is a large enough portion of both that can cause problems in any future hope for a complete acceptance of who people are for what they are.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on endlessly.

[the_meanstrosity]

Quik,

LOL. Sorry about the double post...that's what I get for hitting the damnable BACK button, lol.

As for the topic, I think Fritz's post regarding 6 coaches and only one being a former player is a perfect example. No one takes into account that most coaches never played in the league. Some didn't even play in college. So to say that coaches have to be in proportion to the league is a horrible rule.

I won't disagree that there's a problem, but again I think it starts at the college level. And I think with the influx of minority assistants, we'll see a big change within 10 years.

Of course, how much do you bet that Cochran will take credit for it in 10 years...when in fact it's the current minority assistants who should be getting the credit.

[TroyF]

Chief,

It's simple. I believe in my heart of hearts that very few white athletes are getting the shaft because they happen to be white.

I don't believe there are a lot of white Charles Rogers or Roy Williams (the WR from Texas, not the DB of the Cowboys) out there.

Why? Hell, I don't know. We could get into reasons all day. It doesn't seem to me they are being "pushed" to other positions or other spots on the field though. I certainly have never heard of a case of a white athlete complaining they couldn't play WR because of a black guy, even at the high school level. (some quick searches on google reveal nothing to me, I'm going to the library today anyway, I'll see how many cases I can find)

In no way could I ever fathom a dominant athlete like Randy Moss, Charles Woodson or Marvin Harrison get dumped to the curb were they white and had the same ability. I could and do see scouts harp on size and speed as a way to rip on an athlete, but I think that goes both ways pretty equally. (Barry Sanders was too small, Rod Smith was too slow, etc.)

The question of why there aren't more 4.3 white guys might be a good debate sometime, but in the context of this conversation (which started as black head coaches vs. black players at the NFL level) I simply don't see any white guys being discriminated against. Tim Dwight has made some serious cash because of his pure speed.

On the other hand, I do see very qualified black coaching candidates getting treated unfairly IMO. I don't blame the Lions for hiring the Mooch or the Cowboys for hiring Parcells. I just find it quite unbelievable that out of 117 divison one coaching jobs, only four are held by blacks or that last year of the 149 divison one and NFL coaching slots, only 9 were held by blacks.

I do not think (nor do I see any evidence) that qualified white athletes are not getting the CHANCE to play WR or CB. (and yes, until I see some startling evidence which causes me to step back and think hard, I'm stunned the arguement is out there)

Again, to each his own.

TroyF

[Fritz]

Originally posted by the_meanstrosity
Quik,

As for the topic, I think Fritz's post regarding 6 coaches and only one being a former player is a perfect example. No one takes into account that most coaches never played in the league. Some didn't even play in college. So to say that coaches have to be in proportion to the league is a horrible rule.

Nice to see that someone saw my post.

It seems like almost all (head) coaches have a Bachelors degree, and many have a Masters. It also seems like many of the NFL coaches come from college jobs, at least at some point. I think that colleges must have some sort of educational criteria to be a coach.

So lets start looking at graduation rates among black college football players. How many of those guys even want to coach?

[KWhit]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Second, why is it okay to generalize that blacks are better athletes but it's not okay to generalize that it's possible that whites might have an advantage in some way at coaching.

Yes. I agree completely.


"White Men Can't Jump" was an acceptable movie title but how well do you think "Black Men Can't Coach" would go over?

[Dutch]

Cocherane isn't out there preaching for Esk Imo to be the head coach of the Detroit Lions now is he?

BTW, you can only get mad at something Cochrane says if you forget he's a lawyer. Actually, if you remember he's a lawyer that might upset you too.

Either way, I don't think it's fair to have a debate about minority or racism or stereotyping based on something a defense lawyer says.

[rkmsuf]

Second, why is it okay to generalize that blacks are better athletes but it's not okay to generalize that it's possible that whites might have an advantage in some way at coaching. .

Because by saying this you are implying that white people are smarter in some way. Physical prowess is one thing but when you start asserting in one form or another that a race is more intelligent than another it's a different ball game.

[EagleFan]

Why is it a different ball game? Most of the brightest people in the world have below average physical skills. Most of the athletic people in the world are below the norm in academics. There are exceptions to the rules but that tends to be the case.

[rkmsuf]

Why is it a different ball game? Most of the brightest people in the world have below average physical skills. Most of the athletic people in the world are below the norm in academics. There are exceptions to the rules but that tends to be the case.

so you are saying that as a rule white people are smarter than black people then?

[KWhit]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
so you are saying that as a rule white people are smarter than black people then?

What I think we're saying is that white people are definitely smarter than black people.

Black people are better athletes, better dancers, and have bigger dicks.


Please note. The above should be taken tongue in cheek (pun intended).

[vtbub]

So why does San Francisco get a free pass by hiring a retread coach instead of seemingly more qualified minority canadates and Detroit gets investigated for going after the guy they want?

Is Dennis Erickson really more qualified than Green, Shell, Luvie Smith? He won a championship with Jimmy Johnson's players at Miami.

Do white players get the shaft? I don't think Eric Crouch is a sufficent case. To me, he wasn't going to QB and he took his ball and went home.

Head coaches are rarely stars in the sport. The question I would have is are black players more motivated playing under a black coach or a white coach.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
so you are saying that as a rule white people are smarter than black people then?

Can you read a little more into what I said? It's obviously a discussion that is going nowhere. You have never seen a dumb jock before in your life I guess, or for that matter a chess club member that couldn't bench press 350 pounds.

[rkmsuf]

Can you read a little more into what I said? It's obviously a discussion that is going nowhere. You have never seen a dumb jock before in your life I guess, or for that matter a chess club member that couldn't bench press 350 pounds.

You didn't read my point...obviously there are.

My point is that you can separate the arguement in that one is talking about physical abilities and the other deals with mental. There's a huge difference there.

I'd love to hear a justification from you to the fact that an arguement that can be made that white people are inherently better coaches, managers of people, whatever...

[EagleFan]

Did you even read my entire post before or are you stuck on that part? I asked a simple question without making any generalizations yet you seem to be reading whatever you want into what I said.