Online Leaguers -- OOTP5 HTML OUTPUT

[korme]

Check the thread out: http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=22881

Then, check out the greatest thing ever: http://217.160.88.85/OOTP/ootp5/html/

[FBPro]

Very, very nice....

[lynchjm24]

The first player I clicked on had homerun totals that looked like this over 7 years.

16
14
15
16
14
13
16

I'd love to find a real player who over 7 full seasons had homerun totals this consistant. Looks to me this game, although it gets prettier - doesn't get closer to actually simulating baseball.

[Ryan S]

It looks nice, but I have a big concern.

I have used the FOBL HTML for comparison.

Standings Page in OOTP 5 - 19kb
Standings in OOTP 4 - 7kb

Team page OOTP 5 - 19kb
Team page OOTP 4 - 10kb

Player page OOTP 5 - 24kb
Player page OOTP 4 - 4kb

Top 100 prospects OOTP 5 - 40kb
Top 100 prospects OOTP 4 - 13kb

I would try to cut down the size of those webpages, or at least give users an option so that they don't find themselves using far more bandwidth than they anticipated.

[Anrhydeddu]

jimlynch: Check Tony Perez's HR totals from 1971-1979.

[Jets80]

Get the thermometer cause I got baseball fever !!!!!!!!!!

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
jimlynch: Check Tony Perez's HR totals from 1971-1979.

25
21
27
28
20
19
19
14
13
25
(sandwiched by years of 40 and 9)

Pretty consistent - but nowhere near as consistent as an OOTP player. I understand why you like the game, and that many others like the game - hell I *like* the game, but it's not baseball being played in the game engine - it's just generating statistics that make sense at a high level.

[McSweeny]

i didn't realize that you had such an insight into the OOTP engine

[Jets80]

Hey Lynch thanks for ruining our fantasy.

[Anrhydeddu]

Pretty consistent - but nowhere near as consistent as an OOTP player. I understand why you like the game, and that many others like the game - hell I *like* the game, but it's not baseball being played in the game engine - it's just generating statistics that make sense at a high level.

I definitely agree. It's just the degree of customization, online leagues and reporting (and now with many improvements in those areas) that I truly like to see in a text-based sim.

[Anthony]

lynch:

unless you plan on playing the game as realistic as possible (and let's get serious, even people after the most realsitic experience will do something that deviates off the path) then i wouldn't knock the stats the game generates. Sosa hit over 50 HR's the last several seasons in real life - who'd expect that?

human players tend to think the end justifies the means sometimes. most of the moves we make as virtual GM's are to win a Worls Series. most of the moves reali life GM's makes are to generate more profits...and if it results in a World Series then so be it.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Hell Atlantic
lynch:

unless you plan on playing the game as realistic as possible (and let's get serious, even people after the most realsitic experience will do something that deviates off the path) then i wouldn't knock the stats the game generates. Sosa hit over 50 HR's the last several seasons in real life - who'd expect that?

human players tend to think the end justifies the means sometimes. most of the moves we make as virtual GM's are to win a Worls Series. most of the moves reali life GM's makes are to generate more profits...and if it results in a World Series then so be it.

I have no idea what your point is. My point is that OOTP is a very pretty game that works very well that can be a lot of fun. It just isn't really a very realistic simulation of an actual game of baseball.

I don't need much of an insight into the engine when I see the results player by player and it consistently creates players the likes of which have never existed in the game of baseball.

[Senator]

impressive

[sabotai]

Those are some damn fine HTML outputs.

[McSweeny]

well don't you think that a sim that can sim hundreds of seasons on a single computer will come up with more than just a few results that have never been seen before in baseball?

[kcchief19]

With all the hyperlinks and data they have added, you're not going to get those pages down much. An option to eliminate graphics would help a little, but not much. The pages are just simply longer.

The stuff looks great. I hope that spent as much time on the single player aspects. It's going to be hard, but I'll be wait and see on this game. They needed to completely overhaul the single-player engine to make this a great sim. So far, I'm seeing lots of online league eye candy.

And I know I've mentioned this a million times, but not everyone has at least a 17-inch monitor with fancy-ass 3D cards. It's a freakin' TEXT SIM. There is no need to build their games and even their HTML pages for 1024 screen size. I found the TDCB purely unplayable due to the graphics requirements on my 15-inch monitor.

[Easy Mac]

Here is a statline from a player I somehow found (random clicking)

Bernard Cordeiro

Year 2048
G 159
AB 659
H 209
2B 25
3B 5
HR 79
[/b]RBI 178[/b]
R 136
BB 35
K 104
SB 1
CS 2
AVG .317
OBP .352
SLG .730
OPS 1.081
Teams DAL,L1

All I got to say is WOW, look at those home runs, I know Bonds hit 73, but damn. He averages 1 every 3 games for his career!

I'd have to say that the game looks impressive, but hopefully there is compelling gameplay so I play it more than 2 times. Please, work on solo play for us loners who don't care about pretty HTML outputs.

[Easy Mac]

Thank you kcchief for saying everything I beleive. Just give an accurate engine and a notepad, I don't need scrolling text and pictures.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by kcchief19
With all the hyperlinks and data they have added, you're not going to get those pages down much. An option to eliminate graphics would help a little, but not much. The pages are just simply longer.

The stuff looks great. I hope that spent as much time on the single player aspects. It's going to be hard, but I'll be wait and see on this game. They needed to completely overhaul the single-player engine to make this a great sim. So far, I'm seeing lots of online league eye candy.

And I know I've mentioned this a million times, but not everyone has at least a 17-inch monitor with fancy-ass 3D cards. It's a freakin' TEXT SIM. There is no need to build their games and even their HTML pages for 1024 screen size. I found the TDCB purely unplayable due to the graphics requirements on my 15-inch monitor.

and don't forget the direct3d graphics they added that precluded play on windows NT

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by McSweeny
well don't you think that a sim that can sim hundreds of seasons on a single computer will come up with more than just a few results that have never been seen before in baseball?

Sure, like ERA leaders with 50 strikeouts and batting champions with 150 strikeouts.

It comes up with statistical history that pretty much flies in the face of all the research that has been done on the subject, but why don't we just ignore that because the HTML pages are nice.

[Joe Stallings]

Please keep in mind that the intent here was to demonstrate the new HTML reports, not the engine output. The game is still in beta, after all.

Re: 15 inch monitors and DirectX, I feel your pain. Unfortunately, its difficult (nigh impossible?) to keep adding featues and refinements without implementing some DirectX API calls and (to a lesser extent) going with a 1024x768 or higher resolution, particularly in a sports sim where information density is emphasized and screen space is at a premium.

BTW, Direct3D and DirectDraw is not used *just* for 3D graphics. Its also used for plain 'ol 2D screen surfaces, and is much more efficient and a lot faster at drawing graphics. If you have played TDCB and OOTP4, you'll probalby notice that navigating from screen to screen in OOTP4 is so much faster. A lot of that has to do with the fact that Markus is using DirectX for drawing his screen surfaces.

kcchief19, I noticed you said "its a freakin' TEXT SIM" . This is an interesting issue which I always love to discuss. What exactly is a text sim? When I think of "text sim," I think of Zork, and the

> "Turn left"
> You turned left.

kinds of games. Or the old DOS sports game like Miller Associates / APBA. Is Championship Manager a text sim? What about a game like Risk, or hex-based war games? Are there other text sim games for the computer (nowadays) outside the world of sports? I'm also interested to hear what peoples' opinions are. Myself, I think the definition of a text sim is somewhat murky.

JMS

JMS

[Vince]

Hey, that looks great...I'm looking forward to OOTP 5.

You guys might've noticed this already, but each team in the league pitching report has a '?' under innings pitched.

[FBPro]

Originally posted by Vince
Hey, that looks great...I'm looking forward to OOTP 5.

You guys might've noticed this already, but each team in the league pitching report has a '?' under innings pitched.

This is probably due to the column size display that is allow in the current version, I'm sure the innings pitched will be visible later.

[Ben E Lou]

That output to me shows some SERIOUS problems are still out there in the engine. The HTML output, online leagues, customization, and a bunch of other things that are window dressing all appear to have taken precedent over creating a game engine that realistically simulates baseball. There are fundamental flaws that need to be fixed before this thing comes out of beta. I just posted the following over at the OOTP boards:

Just looking over the HTML output thread (which looks VERY nice by the way), I must share another concern with the OOTP engine. The K/BB ratio, which in real life is one of the top indicator's of a pitcher's effectiveness, is SERIOUSLY out of line. I noticed that the Cy Young Award winner in 2055 had less than 100 strikeouts and 70+ walks. Looking further, I found other pitchers like this among the league ERA leaders:

Julio Perez: 15-8, 3.04 ERA, 225 1/3 IP, 88 strikeouts, 103 BB.

Michael Tsosie: 16-7, 2.83 ERA, 190 2/3 IP, 110 K, 101 BB.

I could go on, as there were more. This is out of whack. Even guys like Maddux, who doesn't throw hard but gets guys out, tend to have a 2-to-1 or better K/BB ratio. Among the top 10 ERA leaders in MLB 2002, Tom Glavine (1.63) was the ONLY one with a K/BB ratio less than 2, and he was 9th in ERA. To find the first guy on the ERA list with a K/BB ratio less then 1.4, you have to go all the way down to #27 and Damian Moss. There was only ONE pitcher in all of MLB who qualified for the ERA title with a K/BB ratio less than one. Who was he? Not coincidentally, it was the guy with the worst ERA in all of baseball among qualifiers: Mike Hampton: 7-15, 6.15 ERA, 74 K, 91 BB. Looking over the entire list of 85 ERA qualifiers, my guess is that there are less than 10 guys with K/BB ratios under 1.4 or so, and the huge majority of those are at the very bottom of the league in ERA. Pitchers with very low K/BB ratios do not make it in the majors. Period. Can this be addressed for OOTP5?

Without going as in-depth, at a quick glance I also see an indicator that another problem hasn't been fixed. The #2 hitter in L1, Ray Andrews, has some hard-to-believe numbers: 548 AB, .332 Avg, 24 BB, 109 K. I have a hard time believing that a guy with the lack of plate discipline to only draw 24 walks in a full season can manage to be a spray hitter and bat .332. Right behind Ray Andrews is Andrew Goetz, an even more ridiculous example: 523 AB, 173 H, 25 BB, 135 K, .331 AVG. Finally, a little further down the list is the amazing Ricardo Gonzalez: 627 AB, 202 H, 10 BB, 157K.

Something is seriuosly out of whack here, and this cuts to the heart of the integrity of the game engine in modeling baseball. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just want the game to accurately reflect baseball.

[Bee]

I wouldn't judge a game's engine based on output from a beta version (or alpha?) that was meant to demonstrate the html output.

I remember seeing some "unrealistic" things on screenshots from FOF4, as well as versions of other games. Once the game is released (and I REALLY hope there is a demo released at the same time!) then we can rip apart the game engine.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Bee
I wouldn't judge a game's engine based on output from a beta version (or alpha?) that was meant to demonstrate the html output.

I remember seeing some "unrealistic" things on screenshots from FOF4, as well as versions of other games. Once the game is released (and I REALLY hope there is a demo released at the same time!) then we can rip apart the game engine.

Bee:

Normally I'd agree with you there. However, these are problems that existed in OOTP3 and OOTP4 that I've never brought up to Markus before. Someone recently said that OOTP games feel like they were not created by someone who truly knows the ins and outs of the game, and that was a real "aha" moment for me. That statement really resonated with me and explained my feelings about the OOTP series. Since I read that comment, I think it is important that hardcore baseball fans make sure that Markus is aware of the flaws in the system. Prior to a couple of weeks ago, I just assumed he didn't care about the engine as much as the peripheral stuff. Now I am operating that it isn't so much that he doesn't care, but that he may not be aware of some of the problems.

[Ben E Lou]

Good news. I just received the following PM from Steve over at the 400 Studios Board, and he gave me permission to post it over here:

We REALLY appreciate the insight and input concerning some of the player generation issues among other things. I just wanted to drop you a note and say that these are areas that we are looking into fairly closely during this time of development. Some issues have been uncovered to this point and I am looking into this issue even further with each release. I expect to see a marked improvement in the realism of our player generation engine with v5 final release.

FYI-I'm not sure what version was used for the "OOTP5 html" example release but with the version I currently have I am not seeing the K/BB issue that you have brought up much at all. So this could have come from an earlier build, I don't know.

At any rate, it is something we are working hard on.

Thanks
Steve

[Bee]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Bee:

Normally I'd agree with you there. However, these are problems that existed in OOTP3 and OOTP4 that I've never brought up to Markus before. Someone recently said that OOTP games feel like they were not created by someone who truly knows the ins and outs of the game, and that was a real "aha" moment for me. That statement really resonated with me and explained my feelings about the OOTP series. Since I read that comment, I think it is important that hardcore baseball fans make sure that Markus is aware of the flaws in the system. Prior to a couple of weeks ago, I just assumed he didn't care about the engine as much as the peripheral stuff. Now I am operating that it isn't so much that he doesn't care, but that he may not be aware of some of the problems.

I think bringing up the problems is a good idea, I just don't think judging the game before it's complete is fair. My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but more of a general statement. If there are problems, I think it's great that they are brought up (we did the same with the FOF4 screenshots). But judging the quality of the gaming engine when it's not finished doesn't make sense to me. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.

[ScottVib]

SkyDog, Markus has replied to your thread:

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
Funny, those are the areas that I worked at after simming those 50 years... it's all better now

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
I'll create another league and sim some 50+ seasons later this week, and I'll post the results here.

So hopefully the latest beta builds have fixed this (I've been fighting the flu all weekend, so I haven't had a chance to take a look yet), and we should hopefully have some better results at the end of the week.

I'd like to thank you guys again for your insights, your comments and criticisms (at least the constructive ones ) are appreciated and help to improve the game.

Thanks

Scott

[Ben E Lou]

excellent.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by ScottVib
I'd like to thank you guys again for your insights, your comments and criticisms (at least the constructive ones) are appreciated and help to improve the game.

Hey, the FOFC crew may at times be gruff, and extremely opinionated, but we're generally constructive.

[ScottVib]

you forgot the smilie in the quote

I know you guys are generally very constructive and there are a lot of good ideas in this forum (hence the reason I visit).

Thanks again guys!

[MizzouRah]

Great feedback!

I'm glad Markus is fixing these things as they are being pointed out.


Todd

[MizzouRah]

dola,

Scott, is there anyway Markus can sort the transactions by team? Meaning when you look at the transactions page, can I would like to see a team name followed by their transactions. It looks to mixed up right now, for me at least.

St. Louis
04/12/03 cut Kodos
05/20/03 signed Skydog to a 1yr/300,000 contract

Toronto
04/03/03 signed Bee to a 2yr/350,000 contract

Something like this...


Todd

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
05/20/03 signed Skydog to a 1yr/300,000 contract

Ouch! I know I'm 34 and may have lost a step, but I can still hit .300 with some pop, baby! Ol' SkyDog deserves more than a 1-year scrub contract!

[Bee]

At least I got the 2 year deal.

[Easy Mac]

Skydog, I can't beleive you stiffed the Braves, you know they like to sign old guys who can still hit every now and again to play first base... :cough:Franco:cough:

Bee, I think thats Canadian dollars. Don't get excited

[MizzouRah]

You scrubs kill me! LOL!

Bee, that was taken from the ootp5 Japanese beta... think Yen!


Todd

[Bee]

Ouch. Guess I'll need to call the wife and tell her not to quit her job.

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
Scott, is there anyway Markus can sort the transactions by team? Meaning when you look at the transactions page, can I would like to see a team name followed by their transactions. It looks to mixed up right now, for me at least.

Not sure... personally I like the league transaction report sorted by date, so I can see what's happened league wide in the time since I last checked the report. Having to scroll each team and then check the date to see if there is something new there is a bit more cumbersome, to me... (much as having to look at the individual team transaction reports seperately to get the parsed view of the transactions is probably cumbersome to you)

I can mention it too him though... you might want to post your idea on the .400 Studios board to see how much support it gains..

[McSweeny]

maybe an option between displaying the transactions by team or by date? that would probably work nicely

and, i think it's great that markus is paying attention to the nuts and bolts of the game. let's hope that this time around, the stats make some sense and the game kicks ass

[MizzouRah]

Understood Scott, maybe a compromise then. Sort by date, but list all the transactions for a team under the team heading.

03/15/03
St. Louis
signed catcher Easy Mac to a 1yr/400,000 contract
released 1b McSweeny


Todd

[korme]

I love OOTP, and the dedication that Markus, Steve, Joe, and Scott have to the game..

[MizzouRah]

bump for ScottVib...

[ScottVib]

I saw your thread on the .400 Studios board, what you propose would be a compromise that I could personally deal with. However, I am not sure if it will make it in or not (its not my call). That will likely depend on how many people want it and how easy it is to do. It would stretch the length of that report a bit since we would add an extra row for each team that makes a move on a particular day, but may be something that would enhance the experience for some users.

[korme]

my loins are quivering in anticipation

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
my loins are quivering in anticipation

Not sure how to reply, but I'll take a shot.

I don't think my dick quivers. The only thing I know that quivers down there is Fritz's pussy. Have you been using Fritz's pussy again?

[korme]

...y-..ye..s..

[MizzouRah]

I saw your thread on the .400 Studios board, what you propose would be a compromise that I could personally deal with. However, I am not sure if it will make it in or not (its not my call). That will likely depend on how many people want it and how easy it is to do. It would stretch the length of that report a bit since we would add an extra row for each team that makes a move on a particular day, but may be something that would enhance the experience for some users.

Thanks, no biggie if Markus doesn't have the time or even want to do this. It's purely cosmetic.

Maybe I can get Skydog to ask this question?

You guys do a great job of communicating and that's why I've bought ootp since v2.

Todd

[McSweeny]

figures... i kept telling myself i'd wait to see how OOTP5 would turn out before i plunked down some cash to buy it... damn... now i'll all pumped to play it so i'll probably be buying it within the first week