Will there be a FOF 10 version?

[UserFOF9]

Is a new version of Front Office Football in production? If so, is the estimated release date in the Fall?

[cupofjoe]

We can only hope. Tone is difficult to read in text, but I get the impression from Jim that he wasn't very enthusiastic about the reception of FOF9 and people's expectations.

[devastator99]

FOF9 came out last year. You'll probably need to wait at least 2-3 years for a new one

[Lann]

The truth is that there is not much activity on the part of FOF9. Hopefully FOF10 arrives, but it seems solecismic isn't communicating much at the moment.

[Haiku]

Originally Posted by Lann

The truth is that there is not much activity on the part of FOF9. Hopefully FOF10 arrives, but it seems solecismic isn't communicating much at the moment.

Judging by the number of reviews, I think FOF9 has sold anywhere between 3k and 5k copies, maybe more. For comparison, the competitor Football Coach: College Dynasty, which is an inferior game, is 10 times more popular. However, the developer of FC:CD is selling his game three times cheaper all year round and is constantly improving the game with new updates and engaging with the audience. Solecismic has a rough diamond in his hands. A little bit of touch in the UI and improved marketing will see the game skyrocket, because the simulation algorithm behind it is as good or even better than some of the top titles in this genre.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by Haiku

Judging by the number of reviews, I think FOF9 has sold anywhere between 3k and 5k copies, maybe more. For comparison, the competitor Football Coach: College Dynasty, which is an inferior game, is 10 times more popular. However, the developer of FC:CD is selling his game three times cheaper all year round and is constantly improving the game with new updates and engaging with the audience. Solecismic has a rough diamond in his hands. A little bit of touch in the UI and improved marketing will see the game skyrocket, because the simulation algorithm behind it is as good or even better than some of the top titles in this genre.

For me it is all UI. The game is just easy to play and never really feels like work. He's a great developer too like you mentioned with the constant updates and true improvements. He's also active on the discord and open to ideas.

[Front Office Midget]

There are often several years or more between versions.

Hoping for FOF10 as well. Didn't give FOF9 a look because I play exclusively multiplayer.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Haiku

A little bit of touch in the UI and improved marketing will see the game skyrocket, because the simulation algorithm behind it is as good or even better than some of the top titles in this genre.

The verb form you wanted there is would. This hypothetical will not happen, but if it were to somehow happen, those things would follow.

But FOF just isn't going to get an interface or marketing workover, and it will presumably remain stalled as an up-the-track loser in the marketplace for that, despite being a superior product. We have had enough time to see how this plays out that this seems pretty clear.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Lann

The truth is that there is not much activity on the part of FOF9. Hopefully FOF10 arrives, but it seems solecismic isn't communicating much at the moment.

This just isn't a fair assessment. The sheer number of patches and updates on FOF9 has been unprecedented. Mind you, that's not quite the sign of a broken product, but much more a sign of commitment from the sole developer.

[QuikSand]

Jim, the developer of the FOF series has always been responsive and meticulous when he senses a game patch is needed. Sometimes that has been effectively a roster update for a years-old product, at no charge. He's always been a dutiful supporter of his own products.

I think the issue here is whether the reception and sales of FOF9 make the case that a new, expanded game is worth the time and effort from a solo developer who is dug in on doing things his own way.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Jim, the developer of the FOF series has always been responsive and meticulous when he senses a game patch is needed. Sometimes that has been effectively a roster update for a years-old product, at no charge. He's always been a dutiful supporter of his own products.

I think the issue here is whether the reception and sales of FOF9 make the case that a new, expanded game is worth the time and effort from a solo developer who is dug in on doing things his own way.

I thank you for recognizing how seriously I take my responsibilities.

FOF9 is the first product that hasn't done as well as the one before it. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. It hasn't been a disaster or a bomb, but it has been a step back and that's a first for me.

I wrote a lot a few months ago about this. It's on one of the other items here. I don't want to rehash all of it, but it could bear repeating because it addresses many of the comments here.

I've been hearing this characterization, variations on "dug in on" since the beginning. I've never really agreed with that characterization. I think what I do is think outside the box. Until the OOTP episode, once I started FOF, I refused to even look at screenshots for other games because I wanted a different approach.

But I've always read what people write about FOF and it has always influenced me when it comes time to design a new version. I also have this irresistible urge to redesign basic things about the game from time to time.

After FOF8 came out, and did really well, the overwhelming response was that it looked terrible but people still liked it. They just wished it was more mainstream in appearance.

So I decided that the best next move was not to decide the next design. To start over, and re-create FOF as others would create it.

The UI design came from Markus (it's what you see, minus nicer graphics design elements since I had no budget for that - it had been several years of no new money coming in, after all), new features came from long-time customer suggestions, things I had been writing down for years.

What I was really trying to do is put FOF's best forward, starting from scratch with a completely new database, with a more generic interface. During the OOTP phase, in fact, I tried as hard as I could not to make any interface decisions at all.

The idea was to use the time to learn from past design mistakes, streamline everything, get a new base product together that was essentially a launch point for the day when I wouldn't be able to work on it any more (I am far too old to think that there's a long-term plan anymore). Step two would have been essentially the MP expansion as EA had conceived of it. That's a two-year plan in and of itself.

I was hoping a new producer would emerge. That an established game publisher would come in with a budget for things I can't do solo. That the "step two" game would be under a new umbrella and get marketed properly. I keep hoping, because I know FOF is ready for that - the internal redesign is so much better than past versions - but it has probably gone as far as I can take it solo. It would be a mistake to try again.

OK. Back to my reading about the intricacies of curling.

[Haiku]

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[NawlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Haiku

Hi Jim,

I might be stating the obvious here, but have you tried reaching out to developers and publishers directly to promote your game? Given how niche your game is, I believe there's significant potential interest out there. You might just need to make sure the right people are aware of it.

Considering how specialized your game is, many developers might not even realize how much they could bring to the table (or gain) until they learn more about your product. If I were in your shoes, I would consider reaching out to the developer of Football Coach: College Dynasty. You both might have a lot to learn from each other. While I’m not necessarily suggesting a direct collaboration, I think the combination of your intricate game engine with his UI and functionality could make for an amazing product.

You might even consider developing both games under the same hood, similar to what DDS do with their college and pro games. There are 8 billion people out there and countless possibilities waiting to be explored.

Good luck!

You may want to do some site research or ask some of the long time FOF followers prior to making certain suggestions.

[Haiku]

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[Solecismic]

It might be helpful to go back and read what I wrote a few months ago. We are definitely talking in circles here.

Also, I'd hesitate to apply a one-size-fits-all label to reaction to FOF9. As with any business venture, analysis is complex.

[Haiku]

Fair enough. Deleting my comments.

[Solecismic]

My intent wasn't to chastise. More to provide insight into the complexity of running this type of business and to try and explain that, as I wrote above:

To start over, and re-create FOF as others would create it.

This is exactly the advice from above. In your case, a different UI than Markus recommended. OOTP has done very well. They've achieved what I think we all want - purchase from a publisher with extended experience in the field.

Scrapping that and doing exactly the same thing with a different text-sim developer doesn't seem wise to me, and that's in no way a knock on the developer in question.

I'm not sure what I'll do with FOF9. Being solo means I can change direction in a minute. People would be surprised to know just how often I change my mind about fundamental stuff. Who knows if there will be an FOF10? I don't. If you asked me two years ago if there would be an FOF9, I would have said the same thing.

I think what sometimes frustrates me is that what I think I bring - the engine itself - is often ignored. One of the biggest new features in FOF9 is a redesign of the statistical model itself. This allows for more accurate pass/YAC, really opens up strategies in a way I never considered early on and was tied to through FOF8. FOF9 has a lot of new and redesigned pieces.

[Haiku]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

My intent wasn't to chastise. More to provide insight into the complexity of running this type of business and to try and explain that, as I wrote above:



This is exactly the advice from above. In your case, a different UI than Markus recommended. OOTP has done very well. They've achieved what I think we all want - purchase from a publisher with extended experience in the field.

Scrapping that and doing exactly the same thing with a different text-sim developer doesn't seem wise to me, and that's in no way a knock on the developer in question.

I'm not sure what I'll do with FOF9. Being solo means I can change direction in a minute. People would be surprised to know just how often I change my mind about fundamental stuff. Who knows if there will be an FOF10? I don't. If you asked me two years ago if there would be an FOF9, I would have said the same thing.

I think what sometimes frustrates me is that what I think I bring - the engine itself - is often ignored. One of the biggest new features in FOF9 is a redesign of the statistical model itself. This allows for more accurate pass/YAC, really opens up strategies in a way I never considered early on and was tied to through FOF8. FOF9 has a lot of new and redesigned pieces.

My point is that I think the graphical appeal is the missing link. I have no complaints about the new navigation, which is exactly like OOTP. Any potential user from the younger generation sees the screenshots and says, "Nah, it looks very dated." As for the Football Coach suggestion, their UI is not my cup of tea, but it is the trend now. I think they use Unity, and Football Manager is moving to that platform with their next release. We’ll see how that goes. The current trend is fewer menu items, streamlined navigation, and more action buttons inside the screens. I buy OOTP every year and I’m fine with the UI, but it is a bit dated in that regard. Just my two cents.

[Gallifrey]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I think what sometimes frustrates me is that what I think I bring - the engine itself - is often ignored.

This is exactly what I think of when I think of FOF games. It isn't ignored, I just think some of us engine fans are a little quite at times.

[KingZal]

For what it's worth, I don't think the new UI needs a total overhaul. But I do think there are tweaks that could make it smoother and more navigable, such as:

• An up/down arrow for navigating game logs, the way you can navigate player profiles
• Notifications for division results, playoff qualification/elimination
• Notifications for player awards
• Not clearing the play box between plays

I don't want to be presumptuous about these tweaks - I'm sure they are easier said than done, and as you've said, no one knows what's next for FOF9. But I do want to point out that for as much as I prefer the functionality of the old UI, I haven't gone back to FOF8 (which I loved) because the new game engine is just that much better. It's feels more "logical," especially now that we can see the play designs, and there's so much room for different play styles.

[QuikSand]

Thanks for the perspective, Jim/Solecismic. I'm perpetually rooting for you and your outstanding products.

[Lann]

So FOF9 support is already abandoned?
Will we ever see this fixed?
For some of us it's a very important feature, I don't know if it would cost much to fix it.

"Is there any way to have the play by play text stop after a play when you are calling the plays? This is how FOF8 worked, so you had time to read what happened before it disappears. Otherwise it seems like you have to toggle the pause button after each play. Am I missing something!"

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lann

So FOF9 support is already abandoned?
Will we ever see this fixed?
For some of us it's a very important feature, I don't know if it would cost much to fix it.

"Is there any way to have the play by play text stop after a play when you are calling the plays? This is how FOF8 worked, so you had time to read what happened before it disappears. Otherwise it seems like you have to toggle the pause button after each play. Am I missing something!"

Since you asked if you're missing something...did you know you can change the speed? I never called plays so I'm not familiar, but it seems like if it's going slower, you'd be fine?

[Haiku]

Originally Posted by Lann

So FOF9 support is already abandoned?
Will we ever see this fixed?
For some of us it's a very important feature, I don't know if it would cost much to fix it.

"Is there any way to have the play by play text stop after a play when you are calling the plays? This is how FOF8 worked, so you had time to read what happened before it disappears. Otherwise it seems like you have to toggle the pause button after each play. Am I missing something!"

This is my number one wish, to be fair. I reported it to Jim a few months ago.
Changing to a lower speed is not really a solution when I only need to read certain plays and otherwise go through the game as quickly as possible. At lower speeds, the game would last more than an hour.

[UserFOF9]

Jim,

Thank you for responding in this Thread. I really hope you will continue development of this very interesting game and come out with FOF 10. I appreciate your hard work and dedication.

Do you have any updates planned for the new NFL Season this Fall for FOF9?

[Solecismic]

It's my policy not to make announcements until I am certain. With updates, I often start and stop and sometimes back off entirely.

Your answer (as it has been for 26 years now) is that I'll post an update on my website when new information is available.

[Lann]

Thanks Jim for stopping by to read from time to time.
I wish you could have told us something about:
"Is there any way to have the play by play text stop after a play when you are calling the plays? This is how FOF8 worked, so you had time to read what happened before it disappears. Otherwise it seems like you have to toggle the pause button after each play. Am I missing something!"
. A yes or a no, but you leave us waiting. It's a shame FoF9 is a great game, but I don't play it very often precisely because of that. It forces me to play very slowly and I don't have that much time, if I speed it up I don't understand the moves. I hope this can be fixed and we see you more often. I hope you get on with FoF10.

[UserFOF9]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It's my policy not to make announcements until I am certain. With updates, I often start and stop and sometimes back off entirely.

Your answer (as it has been for 26 years now) is that I'll post an update on my website when new information is available.

I understand Jim. By the way, I would be more than happy to pay for any updates that you may decide to release for FOF9. You should totally be compensated for your work.

I also have the same question that Lann just posted above. Thanks!

[Haiku]

A few suggestions for improving the game:

1. Can we have 'New, Load, Save, and Settings' added somewhere in the top menu so that those who prefer can remove the sidebar? I think they will fit best under the GAME drop-down menu at the bottom of the list.

2. Can we make the League Overview more easily accessible by moving it out of the submenu with the maps? I prefer using buttons instead of the drop-down menu and would like easy access to both league and team overviews. It would be better for me if clicking on League and Team would lead to their respective Overview screens instead of opening the drop-down menu. If adding an option in settings to turn off the drop-down menu from League and Team is not possible, I think adding the League Overview at the top of the list with no submenu would be an easy solution.

3. Can you add support for PNG files? The current BMP files do not carry a transparent background, and the logos can't be cut seamlessly.

4. The game book summary screen scales the logos beyond their actual size of 150x150px and that makes them appear blurry. Can you keep the size at 150x150px on this screen? I think there's a similar issue with the Solecismic logo displayed on the League screen.

5. Can key controls be added? I'm especially interested in having dedicated keys for 'go back' and 'go forward' as that significantly speeds up navigation.

6. One thing that bugs me off when I play out the games is that the text box clears after the play is finished. I would like the text to remain until after the next play is called. This would be helpful because I need more time to read the text and analyze the situation. I understand this is by design to avoid confusion with the formation box showing the next play, but you could add a text description like 'Previous play' to make it clearer. It is still a good idea since the text box is empty between plays anyway and as such is serving no purpose.

7. Another thing I would like to see improved is to have better control over substitutions. Currently, if I want to remove someone from the skill personnel during the game, I need to do so for every package while hovering on multiple plays containing different formations. It is very tedious and does not provide flexibility. Can we have the "examine lineup" always clickable, and inside that screen, a drop-down menu choosing between all packages? This way, I can fix the lineups for all packages in one go, and it helps dramatically when I have to do it multiple times during the game.

8. Can you make the plays during games selectable? I mean the functionality to highlight a play with a left click. It will help because when I hover over the call button and then go to examine the lineup, I have a hard time finding the play I intended to use when I go back.

9. I believe some changes to the color coding would make more sense. Currently, the combined colors are reversed, and even after hundreds of hours of playing the game, I still find myself confused by them. In my opinion, the colors should follow this order:

Light blue (best)
Green (good)
Yellow (average)
Orange (sub-par)
Red (bad)

This is the attribute color system used in Football Manager, and it makes a lot of sense.

I would also suggest implementing better color indications on the roster, depth charts and during games. Currently, the game displays tired players in red. In my opinion, these colors should be used to outline players as follows:

Yellow: Tired player
Orange: Injured, but can still play
Red: Seriously injured, unable to play
Green: Deactivated players (though the injury color overrides if they are both injured and deactivated).
The yellow and red markings correspond to the OOTP system for highlighting tired and injured players, so it makes a lot of sense to adopt them.

I would like these highlighted colors to also appear in the depth chart. Currently, when looking at the depth chart, I have no clue who is injured and who needs to be replaced. Let me know what you think.

10. Could you please review the attached screenshot? There are inconsistencies in the naming of the offensive holes on the play creation screen and scouting breakdown screen, which I have highlighted in red. Particularly the Outside LG/RG = Inside LT/RT got me really confused when I tried to exploit particular holes with my running plays. These have numbers 1-8 IRL, perhaps you can add the numbers for improved clarity? Additionally could you please add route numbers/abbreviations on the breakdown screen, such as 0 Dig; 1 Out; F Flat etc. This would greatly help with offensive game planning.

https://i.gyazo.com/2cc5a0471a6204c6...982560bcf6.png

11. I would like to see some basic functionalities included on the Strategy Screens, which I think will tremendously improve workflow. Please refer to the attached screenshot. The suggested improvements are as follows:

a. Ability to select multiple plays from the playbook at once (using shift + click) and then drag and drop them into the desired place.
b. EDIT button next to each play, allowing for immediate editing.
c. CLEAR button that removes all plays.
d. REMOVE button next to each play for easy deletion.

https://i.gyazo.com/84a9ea394a153f0b...83d3085438.jpg

Thanks.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Lann

Thanks Jim for stopping by to read from time to time.
I wish you could have told us something about:
"Is there any way to have the play by play text stop after a play when you are calling the plays? This is how FOF8 worked, so you had time to read what happened before it disappears. Otherwise it seems like you have to toggle the pause button after each play. Am I missing something!"
. A yes or a no, but you leave us waiting. It's a shame FoF9 is a great game, but I don't play it very often precisely because of that. It forces me to play very slowly and I don't have that much time, if I speed it up I don't understand the moves. I hope this can be fixed and we see you more often. I hope you get on with FoF10.

Despite that Jim has chimed in here, I think it's best that you read this thread first: REMINDER: This Is *NOT* The Place To Report Bugs Or Feature Suggestions - Front Office Football Central

[Stanley92]

For me this talk about starting to really dig in with the UI issues is a road that can go on for ever. Just look at another football game from Wolverines. They put out a new version every year and their main thing to change is the UI. They just make small important changes to the game engine I think and are more focused on what colours and what menu should be seen. They have nerded down completely on the UI.

FOF in earlier versions was struggling with a diffcult UI and I think FOF9 made a huge jump forward. Yes not the "modern" UI younger players are used to these days, but this game have its strength in the engine inside.
Everyone got an opinion on colours and UI looking so starting in that end to create a FOF10 is a troublesome part I think.
Better maybe to dig into the economics of running a NFL team. Trading, roster limits, contracts, how pre-season works. NFL today is so much about economics when the rosters are set so that's key when playing this game, not graphic. If one wants to go graphic go over to Madden.
OOTP and Football Managers games are the highest levels today that is not focusing on graphic. FM will turn over to new platforms and we don't know how that turns out. OOTP have kept a pretty same UI over the years and I can't say it's a bad thing. Then their sale a couple of years ago made a dent in the games directions. I never liked the results that came out when they were forced to ax several leagues outside US. That was forced on them when a too huge company got their hands on the game. Good for Markus economicaly but not the best for us players.

Jim needs some help but risking losing the control is big if a too big producer steps in and have other goals.
In the end it's money sadly that rules development.
Just hope Jim find the urge to try and fix some of those lingering issue we still got in FOF9 and maybe find the wish to join up with someone to pop a FOF10 to us all in the future.

[tald]

I have played this game since the very first one. I enjoyed the many hours I have played it. I have not liked FOF9 even though I have played it many times. I am encouraged by the post that Jim wrote. He has responded to the many that posted about it. I will continue to play FOF9, however I look forward to what Jim has in mind for improvements or even a new game. Thank you Jim!