Coding/program writing - Page 2

Pumpy Tudors · 12-09-2003, 09:19 PM

maximus: I'm not trying to get all personal, but for someone with no programming experience, what the hell have you been doing with all that programming software?

maximus · 12-09-2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pumpy Tudors
maximus: I'm not trying to get all personal, but for someone with no programming experience, what the hell have you been doing with all that programming software?

"trying" to teach myself.

Fido · 12-09-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximus
Fido, here is a reason why I want to learn

http://fidosutils.shorturl.com/fofre...ayers/1001.htm

Is it the only reason, right now....yes. Your work is that good to me.

Wow...now there's flattery. Seriously, thank you - best compliment I've gotten on any utiltity I've written.

Word of advise though - don't try something like that as a first project. There's a LOT to do and a lot of research, and trial and error (uless you have an inside connection that can share the file formats with you - if that's the case PM me

).

Draft Dodger · 12-09-2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido

If you want to get technical about it, he really shoudl start with logic problems. Working through the logic of solving a given problem, looking at it from different angles and learning that the best approach is not always the most direct one. THAT is what programming is all about. And is why I would hire someone like Quick without any programming experience before I would hire someone with experience but without his logic.

after the Winston Churchill quiz, I wouldn't hire Quick to mow my lawn.

Solecismic · 12-09-2003, 09:45 PM

Just for that, Fido, I'm changing position 73 in the player data section. The evil programmer strikes again...

OT - I strongly recommend Java for beginning programmers. It's free and there are good tutorials available. I don't much like it for GUI, but it's workable. One of my first Java projects was the college football ranking system I wrote (http://www.solecismic.com/cfa).

Once you're comfortable writing code, you can move on to C++. Some people swear by Visual Basic, and since computers are getting much faster, the biggest impediment is going away. It's just hard to restrict yourself to that kind of environment once you're familiar with pointers and all the joys of memory manipulation (trying to get Fido to forget about getting those file formats is a good example of memory manipulation).

Fido · 12-09-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic
Just for that, Fido, I'm changing position 73 in the player data section. The evil programmer strikes again...

73? hmmm...that's ok...haven't figured that one out anyway

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic
(trying to get Fido to forget about getting those file formats is a good example of memory manipulation).

Another good example would be trying to get Jim to release the information

And its been ages since I've asked anything about file formats.

maximus · 12-09-2003, 10:32 PM

Fido, what I would like to do and obvioulsy I will have to wait and see TPF when it comes out, but...I would like to create a career stats utility for TPF. TPF will save career stats but it will be limited (ie,certain amount of games started). FOF2K4 hit it right on the mark IMO with saving stats for every player and for every down that player played in your universe. I would like to see this in TPF as well. Now, will I be able to create a utility for that...lol...most likely not since I am not that good but since TPF will have an open database (according to Arlie), it will be a decent place to start. Not a decent place to start learning per say but a decent place to start getting ideas on what I want to accomplish. Until then I will teach myself VB.

maximus · 12-09-2003, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic
Just for that, Fido, I'm changing position 73 in the player data section. The evil programmer strikes again...

OT - I strongly recommend Java for beginning programmers. It's free and there are good tutorials available. I don't much like it for GUI, but it's workable. One of my first Java projects was the college football ranking system I wrote (http://www.solecismic.com/cfa).

Once you're comfortable writing code, you can move on to C++. Some people swear by Visual Basic, and since computers are getting much faster, the biggest impediment is going away. It's just hard to restrict yourself to that kind of environment once you're familiar with pointers and all the joys of memory manipulation (trying to get Fido to forget about getting those file formats is a good example of memory manipulation).

I think Fido as well as some others really help the game of FOF with their utilities. Now only if you could allow for consistant, ongoing careers where stats, teams, player history can get imported from verion to version........

Now that Jim....would be the best.

Marc Vaughan · 12-10-2003, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
One thing to keep in mind is that the whole "which is the best programming language" debate is a tough one, because every language has fanatics who will praise its capabilities while tearing down the other options.

I agree with that I've programmed in numerous languages and found different advantages and disadvantages in each.

Generally people simply 'like' what they're most familiar with, for example I use C/C++ most extensively so know all of the nuances of those languages, VB, Java, C#, Fortran, Pascal and Ada I'm familiar with but haven't generally used on large projects for a while (or in the case or Java and C# never have) - so I don't know their nuances as well.

Richards · 12-10-2003, 07:50 AM

Ok I'm joining this a little bit late, and the original poster's plate is full with thousands of suggestions. I tend to agree with the line of thinking, if you want write a program in C++, learn C++.

If you are interested in learning programming concepts, etc, then the suggestions of Java, etc are all good. Once you pick up the underlying concepts, the language is just a syntax for expressing those concepts. As marc vaughan said, it more of a favorite (or religion for some) type of thing rather than bettor or worse.

I'd say just make sure you get a book or tutorial that teaches the good programming fundamentals ala control structures, functions, commenting, variables/arrays....the language becomes secondary.

Anyway, to add my opinion, I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but why not PHP? Most people think of it as a web scripting toy only, but now with command line php and php gtk you can write full-blown apps. PHP makes it very easy to get things working quickly, easing the frustration for a starting programmer.

I write/optimize motorola DSP assembly code "during the day", and have experience with most languages mentioned here, all good languages, but when I'm at "play" or need to crank something out fast, I'm increasingly turning to PHP.

Plus, it's VERY similar to C/C++ in form, so the leap from one to another is not that big.

If you are interested in OO, or just a language that keeps the learning process extremely FUN try Ruby. It's great.

[edit for spelling]

Fido · 12-10-2003, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximus
since TPF will have an open database (according to Arlie)

Really? That's very interresting to me. A great boos for utility writers, but potentially bad for the developmen tteam. I really see where Jim is coming from on not revealing the file formats - and it makes perfect sense to me. If he wants to add a feature that will improve the game, but require a change to the file format, doins so when you have told people what the format is would piss them off. Making himself available to answer questions on it would also be time consuming, and since he is not a development team, he really doesn't have the resources to spare on questions like that. If Arlie thinks he will be able to do that then more power to him. I can say that it is something that makes me consider swiching to TPF for utility work.

Quote:

Originally posted by maximus
Fido, what I would like to do and obvioulsy I will have to wait and see TPF when it comes out, but...I would like to create a career stats utility for TPF. TPF will save career stats but it will be limited (ie,certain amount of games started). FOF2K4 hit it right on the mark IMO with saving stats for every player and for every down that player played in your universe.

Jim did have decent foresight in this. I'm still not clear on some of the reasoning behind his approach, but it definately works. What you want to accomplish is not all that difficult, and coudl be started now. For simplicity sake, you'll probably want to create an Access databasse (provided you have Access). VB operates well with Access, and it would be better than creating a binary file format and internal storage mechanism for all of that data on your first project.

Once you have the data storage made (either database fo binary file), its simply a matter of opening up the TPF save game, looking through the stats, determining which are not in your data and adding them. Hopefully the stats will be keyed by Player, Year and week (like Jim's do) which makes things easy for you.

Quote:

Originally posted by maximus
I would like to see this in TPF as well. Now, will I be able to create a utility for that...lol...most likely not since I am not that good

Don't say that. Frustration is a big stumbling point when it comes to learning programming. Don't make that worse by doubting yourself. Its not that hard, and ther are a lot of ways to solve any given problem. Your code may not be the best way to do things, But with some patience, trial an error, and probelm solving, you can write it. If you really want to write this utility then do it. By doubting that you can, you are giving yourself an easy out - if you get stuck you can simply quit rather than working through the problem. That's not something that you need.

Now, I can't speak for all of the developers here on this, but I can speak for myself. At some point in our lives we were all learning to program, we all ran into problems, and we all either had or wished we had someone to help. Now that we're more experienced, its our turn to give back by helping out the next generation. Translation - if you get stuck on or don't understand something, don't hesistate to ask for help. You can contact me whenever (post, pm, or e-mail) and I'll see how I can help.

Fido · 12-10-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richards
Anyway, to add my opinion, I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but why not PHP? Most people think of it as a web scripting toy only, but now with command line php and php gtk you can write full-blown apps.

Well, first off, I'll openly admit that I was unaware that PHP had no nweb uses. The answer to why noone mentioned it (besides the fact that he originally stated that he wante dto learn C++

) is pretty simple. Its not one of the "big three" languages. (C# is closing in on making it 4, but I just don't think its there yet). Whenever a what language shoudl I learn topic comes up, you alomost always get only Java, VB, or C++. You coudl argue for Perl, ADA or Scheme. Every language has things that it is good at and well suited for, but the three big ones have a much larger following.

Based on his expanded description of his objective, the decision to go with VB is the right one.

maximus · 12-10-2003, 04:19 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Fido
[b]Really? That's very interresting to me. A great boos for utility writers, but potentially bad for the developmen tteam. I really see where Jim is coming from on not revealing the file formats - and it makes perfect sense to me. If he wants to add a feature that will improve the game, but require a change to the file format, doins so when you have told people what the format is would piss them off. Making himself available to answer questions on it would also be time consuming, and since he is not a development team, he really doesn't have the resources to spare on questions like that. If Arlie thinks he will be able to do that then more power to him. I can say that it is something that makes me consider swiching to TPF for utility work.[b]

This what Arlie told me when I asked him in the forum about utilities:

Maximus-One more question. Will this feature (retired player stats) be 3rd party friendly as far as creating a utility/program that can save retired player stats even from the ones who are just/only back-ups or have only started one game?
If so, would you be willing to help out on a utility (not creating one yourself but help another mod maker by giving advice)? Thanks.

Arlie-All the retired information is stored in an access-friendly table. I would be gald to provide this information to anyone that wants to do a third part app. You will also have access to all the draft history, as well as coach and team history here as well.

END.

Fido, this sounds good to me.

I will give it (utility wrting) a shot..no doubt.

You spoke about having Access. Yes, I do have that as well. I actually just bought Microsoft Office Pro 2003 last week, which contains excel, access,....and many, many more things. I am sure you have heard of it.

12-10-2003, 07:50 AM	#60
Richards Mascot Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Superior,WI	other suggestions Ok I'm joining this a little bit late, and the original poster's plate is full with thousands of suggestions. I tend to agree with the line of thinking, if you want write a program in C++, learn C++. If you are interested in learning programming concepts, etc, then the suggestions of Java, etc are all good. Once you pick up the underlying concepts, the language is just a syntax for expressing those concepts. As marc vaughan said, it more of a favorite (or religion for some) type of thing rather than bettor or worse. I'd say just make sure you get a book or tutorial that teaches the good programming fundamentals ala control structures, functions, commenting, variables/arrays....the language becomes secondary. Anyway, to add my opinion, I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but why not PHP? Most people think of it as a web scripting toy only, but now with command line php and php gtk you can write full-blown apps. PHP makes it very easy to get things working quickly, easing the frustration for a starting programmer. I write/optimize motorola DSP assembly code "during the day", and have experience with most languages mentioned here, all good languages, but when I'm at "play" or need to crank something out fast, I'm increasingly turning to PHP. Plus, it's VERY similar to C/C++ in form, so the leap from one to another is not that big. If you are interested in OO, or just a language that keeps the learning process extremely FUN try Ruby. It's great. [edit for spelling] Last edited by Richards : 12-10-2003 at 07:53 AM.

12-10-2003, 04:19 PM	#63
maximus Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Where the system is screwed	[quote]Originally posted by Fido [b]Really? That's very interresting to me. A great boos for utility writers, but potentially bad for the developmen tteam. I really see where Jim is coming from on not revealing the file formats - and it makes perfect sense to me. If he wants to add a feature that will improve the game, but require a change to the file format, doins so when you have told people what the format is would piss them off. Making himself available to answer questions on it would also be time consuming, and since he is not a development team, he really doesn't have the resources to spare on questions like that. If Arlie thinks he will be able to do that then more power to him. I can say that it is something that makes me consider swiching to TPF for utility work.[b] This what Arlie told me when I asked him in the forum about utilities: Maximus-One more question. Will this feature (retired player stats) be 3rd party friendly as far as creating a utility/program that can save retired player stats even from the ones who are just/only back-ups or have only started one game? If so, would you be willing to help out on a utility (not creating one yourself but help another mod maker by giving advice)? Thanks. Arlie-All the retired information is stored in an access-friendly table. I would be gald to provide this information to anyone that wants to do a third part app. You will also have access to all the draft history, as well as coach and team history here as well. END. Fido, this sounds good to me. I will give it (utility wrting) a shot..no doubt. You spoke about having Access. Yes, I do have that as well. I actually just bought Microsoft Office Pro 2003 last week, which contains excel, access,....and many, many more things. I am sure you have heard of it. Last edited by maximus : 12-10-2003 at 07:49 PM.

12-09-2003, 09:45 PM	#55
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	Just for that, Fido, I'm changing position 73 in the player data section. The evil programmer strikes again... OT - I strongly recommend Java for beginning programmers. It's free and there are good tutorials available. I don't much like it for GUI, but it's workable. One of my first Java projects was the college football ranking system I wrote (http://www.solecismic.com/cfa). Once you're comfortable writing code, you can move on to C++. Some people swear by Visual Basic, and since computers are getting much faster, the biggest impediment is going away. It's just hard to restrict yourself to that kind of environment once you're familiar with pointers and all the joys of memory manipulation (trying to get Fido to forget about getting those file formats is a good example of memory manipulation).

12-09-2003, 10:32 PM	#57
maximus Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Where the system is screwed	Fido, what I would like to do and obvioulsy I will have to wait and see TPF when it comes out, but...I would like to create a career stats utility for TPF. TPF will save career stats but it will be limited (ie,certain amount of games started). FOF2K4 hit it right on the mark IMO with saving stats for every player and for every down that player played in your universe. I would like to see this in TPF as well. Now, will I be able to create a utility for that...lol...most likely not since I am not that good but since TPF will have an open database (according to Arlie), it will be a decent place to start. Not a decent place to start learning per say but a decent place to start getting ideas on what I want to accomplish. Until then I will teach myself VB.

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