Bigotry, Gay Marriage, Michael Sam & Tony Dungy

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by stevew

NFL made deal with Rams over selecting Sam

Hmm. Yet another Roger bungle

I am sure if Sam wasn't drafted it was going to be a PR nightmare. Sam was a fringe player that created a no-win situation. Looks to me more like Godell tried to appease the media and hoped it didn't all come out in the wash.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I am sure if Sam wasn't drafted it was going to be a PR nightmare. Sam was a fringe player that created a no-win situation. Looks to me more like Godell tried to appease the media and hoped it didn't all come out in the wash.

Pretty much this. You had a bunch of nitwits who hadn't actually paid attention to the fact that he ran up sack stats against non-conference opponents and one or two bottom-feeder SEC schools screaming about "THE SEC DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR!!! MUST BE TEH DESCRIMININATION IF HE DOESN'T GO HIGH!!!" I don't remember the exact numbers, but something like 10ish of his 13ish sacks that "earned" him SECDPOTY came in just three or four games against bad teams. The NFL was in a bind with him and as much as I hold Goodell in low regard, I can't really blame him for this one.

[Logan]

Agreed. In another world, Goodell gets lauded for this. It's not like what he was holding against the Rams as leverage was something like going easy on a punishment or forfeiture of draft picks...it was getting out of a stupid TV show.

[flere-imsaho]

It will be interesting to see how everyone handles the next openly gay player who declares for the draft, based on all of this.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It will be interesting to see how everyone handles the next openly gay player who declares for the draft, based on all of this.

It shouldn't matter. I'm sure the media will spend thousands of hours telling us how bigoted we are and we'll eat it up and point fingers at each other while they line their pockets with our money.

[digamma]

I'm not sure what to make of the article. It's kind of filled with innuendo and speculation, with no hard reporting. The interesting thing to me though is not the Hard Knocks side show, but the Ethan Westbrooks angle. If that's true, then it screams violation of collective bargaining arrangements in a lot of ways.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by stevew

NFL made deal with Rams over selecting Sam

Hmm. Yet another Roger bungle

Not sure how I feel about this. I guess its good a gay athlete got drafted, but I don't like how they manipulated the draft-sets a bad precedent. I also don't like how they then, after achieving such an accomplishment, would then try to cover up exposure of it by not having the team on Hard Knocks.

[RainMaker]

Yeah wouldn't the bigger issue be that they manipulated the draft by offering a benefit to a team for taking a player they wanted to be drafted?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by digamma

If that's true, then it screams violation of collective bargaining arrangements in a lot of ways.

Effin' lawyers, always figuring out a way to mess up a good bidness move.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It will be interesting to see how everyone handles the next openly gay player who declares for the draft, based on all of this.

Hopefully, it will depend on his talent. There will be greater media presence and all that, but my guess is that guy should be grateful that Sam got the "first" aspect out of the way.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Effin' lawyers, always figuring out a way to mess up a good bidness move.

Your bill is in the mail.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Pretty much this. You had a bunch of nitwits who hadn't actually paid attention to the fact that he ran up sack stats against non-conference opponents and one or two bottom-feeder SEC schools screaming about "THE SEC DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR!!! MUST BE TEH DESCRIMININATION IF HE DOESN'T GO HIGH!!!" I don't remember the exact numbers, but something like 10ish of his 13ish sacks that "earned" him SECDPOTY came in just three or four games against bad teams. The NFL was in a bind with him and as much as I hold Goodell in low regard, I can't really blame him for this one.

Eh...

You seem very knowledgeable about football. You realize there is more to defensive line then just sack statistics right? I mean he was selected as an all-American as well. He also played on a line with Marcus Golden, Shane Ray, and Kony Ealy who are having some success in the NFL. Maybe Auburn and Georgia blocked him at the expense of the other three? I guess what I am getting at is I have heard this rewrite of history about Michael Sam many times and think it could be said about every SEC POY and every great defensive players. Of course the top teams will prevent more sacks they have better personnel on their offensive line.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah wouldn't the bigger issue be that they manipulated the draft by offering a benefit to a team for taking a player they wanted to be drafted?

I'm here. Forget the gay stuff, because it's 2016 and Michael Sam should be identified as a football player and receive the same treatment as others (I'd refer again to Derrick Gordon at UMass; instead of a constant media circus it was "cool, good for you" and within a month people were back to criticizing his shooting). But if Roger Goodell is getting involved in teams personnel decisions that's the bombshell to me, and not just because it seems like pretty obvious collusion and massive CBA violations. It's one thing if you hold Hard Knocks over their head as part of allowing them to move to LA, and a huge line being crossed if you're manipulating personnel decisions. I hope somebody does do the digging on that angle, although we all know it won't be ESPN...

[ISiddiqui]

I don't know if what the article headline claims is supported by what the article says... for instance:

It turns out, according to multiple sources, that the league agreed not to ask the Rams to appear that year on HBO's yearly summer series, "Hard Knocks," if they drafted Sam.

I read that as the Rams didn't want all the stuff about a gay player to be fodder for the Hard Knocks show and they made a deal with the NFL that if Sam was selected, the NFL would try to prevent a bit of the media circus.

[ISiddiqui]

Here's Deadspin's take (which I think is closer to the truth):

Did The Rams Draft Michael Sam Just To Avoid Hard Knocks?

Now, there is a halfway theory that does make some sense. It’s very easy to picture the Rams willingly using their draft pick on Sam, but first informally reaching out to the league office to see if they could avoid doing Hard Knocks and bringing in a full documentary crew to cover a training camp that would have already been the furthest thing from normal. That would have been a real factor for Fisher and the Rams—we know they vetoed a planned Oprah Winfrey Network documentary on Sam that would have filmed in camp.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by panerd

Eh...

You seem very knowledgeable about football. You realize there is more to defensive line then just sack statistics right? I mean he was selected as an all-American as well. He also played on a line with Marcus Golden, Shane Ray, and Kony Ealy who are having some success in the NFL. Maybe Auburn and Georgia blocked him at the expense of the other three? I guess what I am getting at is I have heard this rewrite of history about Michael Sam many times and think it could be said about every SEC POY and every great defensive players. Of course the top teams will prevent more sacks they have better personnel on their offensive line.

Or you know, they focused on blocking those players and let Sam go 1v1 vs their 5th best O-lineman? It's a huge rewrite of history if people are implying he was a scrub that didn't deserve an NFL shot, but everyone knew Ealy at least was a far better prospect, and anyone listening to NFL scouts knew his measurables were weak (and there's a long line of undersized DE's with great college production, some of whom like Freeney have amazing careers due to elite quickness, but many who flame out hard in the NFL), had heard the production questions, and had heard those thoughts that he was a 5th round pick at best.

[JPhillips]

Wasn't Sam's major problem that he was too small for DE and too slow for LB?

[albionmoonlight]

There are already folks who say that the collectively bargained draft process is very unfair to the potential draftees. Wentz or Goff, for instance, are going to be making a lot less money than they would if they could come in as unrestricted free agents. And they are so limited because of a CBA that they had no part in negotiating or signing.

That complaint is valid, but it is generally overcome by the idea that "Hey, the union was looking out for you and the overall system is good for everyone and fair."

That all breaks down if it turns out that the NFL is specifically directing teams to draft certain players. Then it is just sanctioned collusion.

However, despite the scandalous headline, the facts in the article seems to say that there was more informal discussions about the media ramifications than an actual "If you draft Sam, then we will keep you off Hard Knocks" under-the-table agreement.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by panerd

Eh...

You seem very knowledgeable about football. You realize there is more to defensive line then just sack statistics right? I mean he was selected as an all-American as well. He also played on a line with Marcus Golden, Shane Ray, and Kony Ealy who are having some success in the NFL. Maybe Auburn and Georgia blocked him at the expense of the other three? I guess what I am getting at is I have heard this rewrite of history about Michael Sam many times and think it could be said about every SEC POY and every great defensive players. Of course the top teams will prevent more sacks they have better personnel on their offensive line.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Or you know, they focused on blocking those players and let Sam go 1v1 vs their 5th best O-lineman? It's a huge rewrite of history if people are implying he was a scrub that didn't deserve an NFL shot, but everyone knew Ealy at least was a far better prospect, and anyone listening to NFL scouts knew his measurables were weak (and there's a long line of undersized DE's with great college production, some of whom like Freeney have amazing careers due to elite quickness, but many who flame out hard in the NFL), had heard the production questions, and had heard those thoughts that he was a 5th round pick at best.

When it comes to giving out hardware, stats>talent, but when the NFL is drafting talent>>>>>>>stats. But people on this board (and some in the media) were complaining that he got "cheated" in the draft, and the justification for that almost always involved his status as SECDPOY. Nowhere have I suggested that he wasn't a solid player, and the "rewrite history" thing is laughable, since I'm quite sure that you can find that I'm merely suggesting the exact same thing that I suggested in 2014, prior to and immediately after the draft (and the posts are still there): that he had over-inflated stats and that led to him getting some recognition, but that there were enough better NFL talents at OLB/DE in the draft pool that year that he wasn't "cheated" by being drafted so late.

[Solecismic]

Unfortunately, when you get into that 255-270 pound range, you're often locked into that 34 OLB/43 DE pass-rushing category. Sam doesn't have the speed to drop a little weight and become a linebacker. He doesn't have the frame to bulk up and become a run-stopping, pocket-collapsing DE.

So he's competing against elite athletes for that pass-rushing position, and he doesn't have explosiveness. You look at his measurables and they're far from guys who get drafted high. Still, there's room in the NFL, and guys like Sam get drafted late or become priority free agents. They get a chance to show they're "football players" who can contribute without that elite explosiveness.

Sacks at the college level don't always translate well. I don't know the SEC well enough to know whether his DPOY was deserved, but there's nothing about his story that seems inconsistent. That, combined with what seems to be a shaky work ethic (especially this on-off thing in the CFL), doesn't add up to an NFL career. Sam's at that "tweener" size where there's a lot of competition for not as many jobs.

It's not necessarily "fair" that guys this size have such limited options (pretty much the only other option is tight end). The nature of football is a pile of giants crashing into each other at the line, surrounded by a bunch of fast people, with one quarterback directing traffic.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Wasn't Sam's major problem that he was too small for DE and too slow for LB?

Exactly

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Wasn't Sam's major problem that he was too small for DE and too slow for LB?

His measurables at the combine were terrible. At the time his 3 cone drill was the slowest among DEs in several years, so it's unlikely he had the lateral quickness to play LB.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I read that as the Rams didn't want all the stuff about a gay player to be fodder for the Hard Knocks show and they made a deal with the NFL that if Sam was selected, the NFL would try to prevent a bit of the media circus.

That's pretty much how I took it as well. As obtuse as Goodell is, I can't see him doing something to where he tells a team to draft a certain player. It always appeared to me that the Rams did this for a "PR credit" with the local fanbase and national media. Sam went to Mizzou and the Rams were coming off a last place finish in the division. This smelled from the start like an owner/GM "let's bank some good will" move. I'm sure Fisher didn't like the move from a distraction standpoint (and the fact that Sam was unlikely to make the team) - so it made sense that Fisher and/or the Rams would ensure that they wouldn't have a complete circus (and be on hard knocks) if the drafted Sam.

But, I do remember a lot of my St. Louis/Mizzou fan friends being very happy the Rams took Sam. I'm sure this wasn't lost on the Rams brass going into the final round of the draft.

[Logan]

The Michael Sam conspiracy lacks a real conspiracy - Yahoo Sports

[stevew]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'm not sure what to make of the article. It's kind of filled with innuendo and speculation, with no hard reporting. The interesting thing to me though is not the Hard Knocks side show, but the Ethan Westbrooks angle. If that's true, then it screams violation of collective bargaining arrangements in a lot of ways.

Yeah, I thought the Westbrooks angle was way more troubling than anything else in the story.

[Julio Riddols]

I feel like it doesn't help Sam that he has kind of been a bit of a head case since departing the NFL.. But the league should have just let things be and dealt with whatever minor backlash followed. If Sam was truly talented, he would have caught on with a team and been an even better story than simply getting drafted. If he didn't, it would have essentially been a non story and would have faded into nothing but a faint echo of dissent by now.

The best way to make something a bigger deal than it is is to assume that it is a big deal in the first place.