7 dead, 20+ injured in Kansas mass shooting

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sheriff: Up to 7 dead, 20 injured in Kansas workplace shooting | The Kansas City Star

[digamma]

Ugh.

[PilotMan]

sigh.

[Thomkal]

My dad (and grandparents) were from Newton where this apparently started. Sad to see it get its "15 minutes of fame" this way.

[CrimsonFox]

Guns still the problem says....everybody...

[Groundhog]

Let's hold off blaming guns until we know if this was an act of terrorism or just your regular ole American gun massacre.

[stevew]

The Kalamazoo Uber killer from the other day was pretty crazy, too.

[Kodos]

It just never stops.

[CrimsonFox]

I like the fact that the onion basically keeps rerunning this article every time it happens... as that indeed says it all.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[cuervo72]

What's funny (not ha-ha funny) too is that maybe a week or so ago Ben said (this might have been off of FOFC) something to the effect that one or two more terrorist attacks would probably seal the deal for Trump getting nominated, if not elected. And he's probably right. If these were carried out by someone from the middle east (or even Mexico)? Oh, man. But just a fat, middle-aged white Uber driver and a black painter? Eh, you know. It happens.

[Easy Mac]

A good guy with a gun could have stopped it if they had open carry laws in Kansas... oh, wait.

Well, maybe they should let people purchase guns without a permit, then anyone could have stopped it... oh, wait.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

A good guy with a gun could have stopped it if they had open carry laws in Kansas... oh, wait.

Well, maybe they should let people purchase guns without a permit, then anyone could have stopped it... oh, wait.

Says he without answers...

[EagleFan]

If only there were laws against illegally having a gun...oh wait...

[Easy Mac]

We've mentioned answers in every thread, the problem is, people on the other side don't actually care.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

We've mentioned answers in every thread, the problem is, people on the other side don't actually care.

Oh. Didn't realize your side had all the answers.

[Easy Mac]

So you can either have all answers or no answers? Trying to change things step by step is dumb. Got it.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

So you can either have all answers or no answers? Trying to change things step by step is dumb. Got it.

Nobody is saying that, although I'd like to know what the destination of your steps actually is.

I've asked if a repeal of the 2nd Ammendment and a collection of all guns was the end goal and "your side" said it wasn't. Then what is? Just more laws to make you feel good? Different laws just to make you feel good? Don't laws have to be adhered to by all? This dude was allegedly on probation....he was going out in a blaze of glory and no law will stop that. I'm sorry.

[larrymcg421]

We don't need a repeal of the 2nd Amendment, just a proper reading of it. For example, it would be nice if we could stop pretending that the first part, including phrases like "well-regulated", doesn't exist.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

my side says yes it is the goal.

Thank you for your honesty. Now, that is not going to happen, but it's nice to see somebody own it. And it's not Republicans that are telling you it's not going to happen. It's everybody. The reasons for this are clear. It's a fantasy to think it can happen over-night. What would be harder, in your mind? Deporting ALL illegal aliens (10-20 million) or confiscating ALL firearms (300 million) and ensuring they don't enter the country illegally?

So the end result is you dismantle one piece of the Constitution...one small step for man...one giant leap for mankind....and this still happens? What's next? The glorification in the news media is egging these guys on? Perhaps a repeal of the 1st Ammendment? Most of the people killing in America are black....repeal the Emancipation? It's a fantasy that you are chasing. Pure and simple.

Now, we could be a little tougher on crime in general. But that won't stop the blaze of glory lottery winners.

Again, very sorry this happened, but your answers are designed to make you feel better and at the same time piss somebody else off..and it doesn't actually stop violence.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

We don't need a repeal of the 2nd Amendment, just a proper reading of it. For example, it would be nice if we could stop pretending that the first part, including phrases like "well-regulated", doesn't exist.

To be fair, we don't have a well-regulated militia anyway. Just the "Kings Army" and regular ole citizens like me and you. You don't need a Constitutional Ammendment for your standing Army...or for government press releases for that matter.

[cartman]

So, Dutch, are you saying that any action that doesn't immediately stop gun violence isn't a worthwhile action to consider? It is clear this is an intransigent issue, and any kind of change is going to be over the long term.

[stevew]

I'm doubting he had legal guns but according to the article his GF filed for protection on Feb 5.

---------Citing In her petition for protection from abuse, the woman expresses concern over Ford’s demeanor and mental state.

“He is an alcoholic, violent, depressed,” she writes, again all in capital letters. “It’s my belief he is in desperate need of medical & psychological help!”------

So yeah, maybe this guy should have had his weapons seized, if only for awhile til he could get some counseling.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cartman

So, Dutch, are you saying that any action that doesn't immediately stop gun violence isn't a worthwhile action to consider? It is clear this is an intransigent issue, and any kind of change is going to be over the long term.

Make changes so that they don't affect me. I've respected the Constitution, I've respected the lives of others, I'm a Conservative, I don't change much, after all. But things are changing. There is a new American, one that doesn't respect the values of this country and of human life...bring the pain to them, make them fear your progressive changes. I haven't see that, quite frankly. Because the same people that perpetrate the majority of these acts are Part of the Democrat protective umbrella.

If you want to start the clean-up, in the inner city, if you want to make the lives of Democrat families safer, I'd be more willing to hear what you have to say, and I've said as much before....round and round we go...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm doubting he had legal guns but according to the article his GF filed for protection on Feb 5.

---------Citing In her petition for protection from abuse, the woman expresses concern over Ford’s demeanor and mental state.

“He is an alcoholic, violent, depressed,” she writes, again all in capital letters. “It’s my belief he is in desperate need of medical & psychological help!”------

So yeah, maybe this guy should have had his weapons seized, if only for awhile til he could get some counseling.

Based strictly on what you quote here ... her petition makes claims that she is unlikely to be legally qualified to make (I assume she wasn't his doctor or something). That makes seizure of hypothetically legal weapons on some really shaky ground at best.

[cartman]

So, Dutch, to take a page out of your playbook: This guy wasn't from the inner city. What changes there would have kept him from doing this?

See how that doesn't help in the discussion in the slightest? It is an incredibly complicated and interconnected issue affecting all levels of society. No one magic solution exists.

[JonInMiddleGA]

According to the record and other government records, he was arrested for violating probation stemming from burglary and grand theft charges. He pleaded no contest in the cases, the records say.

I'm just going out on a limb here I suppose but ... wouldn't a conviction on "burglary and grand theft charges" make him a convicted felon?

And wouldn't that typically make possession, much less ownership, of a firearm illegal?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm just going out on a limb here I suppose but ... wouldn't a conviction on "burglary and grand theft charges" make him a convicted felon?

And wouldn't that typically make possession, much less ownership, of a firearm illegal?

Yep. But until more info is released, we don't know how he acquired the weapons. He might have gotten them post-plea deal because of gaps in the background check system. He might have gotten them with no check at a gun show or from a private sale. And since there is no ownership registry, there isn't a way for law enforcement to tell if someone has a gun that shouldn't until something bad happens, or as a secondary check from some other reason they popped up on LEO radar.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

So, Dutch, to take a page out of your playbook: This guy wasn't from the inner city. What changes there would have kept him from doing this?

Umm ... not so fast there maybe. We can assume he wasn't living in in the inner city but given his arrest and conviction record in Florida -- specifically Miami-Dade -- I don't know that we can say was wasn't from the inner city.

If what's been dug up so far is accurate (I haven't verified it personally)

In 1996, a court in Florida, convicted Ford of illegally carrying a concealed firearm.
In 1997, he faced charges on prowling and possession of burglary tools.
In 2000, he was found guilty of burglary, grand theft, and fleeing police.

[cartman]

This guy is a prime example of someone that shouldn't have had a firearm. But the discussion always seems to come back around to any changes to keep someone like him from getting a firearm get extrapolated into someone saying "that might keep me from getting a firearm", even though they have never even seen the inside of the lobby of a jail.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

Yep. But until more info is released, we don't know how he acquired the weapons. He might have gotten them post-plea deal because of gaps in the background check system. He might have gotten them with no check at a gun show or from a private sale. And since there is no ownership registry, there isn't a way for law enforcement to tell if someone has a gun that shouldn't until something bad happens, or as a secondary check from some other reason they popped up on LEO radar.

But any of those methods do not make the weapons legally acquired ... IF I'm right in thinking that as a general rule convicted felons aren't supposed to have guns period. (Unless there was a pardon I haven't seen mentioned then he does not appear to be eligible for restoration of firearms rights under Florida law even if he got a "civil rights restoration" for voting, etc.)

My point is simply that, based on what I've seen so far, there is no legal means for him to have obtained a firearm.

edit to add: And now that my brain kept going after I stopped typing, I'm left wondering if maybe there IS a way. Convicted felon can't have a firearm or even ammunition under federal law, with the exception being if they had the right restored through a state process. I honestly don't know how a multi-state scenario works though. Feds would say no based on Florida conviction. If my Google results were accurate then he doesn't appear to be eligible, short of a pardon, for firearms rights to be restored by Florida.

But would/could Kansas restore them independently of Florida? Can they even do that? And would the feds recognize a hypothetical restoration performed by another state, or only by the state where the right was lost in the first place?

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cartman

This guy is a prime example of someone that shouldn't have had a firearm. But the discussion always seems to come back around to any changes to keep someone like him from getting a firearm get extrapolated into someone saying "that might keep me from getting a firearm", even though they have never even seen the inside of the lobby of a jail.

Which do you think would save more lives? Mandatory life sentences for everyone convicted of a violent crime (regardless of where they come from) or more restrictions on legal gun ownership?

I'm fine with most of the mainstream ideas for gun control, I just don't think they will help.

We have extraordinary freedoms in America. Unfortunately, that means we also have an extraordinary need for jail cells for people who won't respect others' freedoms.

I find it fascinating that the left is fine with the crime committed by people released from jail, but is eager to restrict access to guns. At least the right is consistent with its opposition to crime, though the idea that teachers should be armed is fairly frightening on its own.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I find it fascinating that the left is fine with the crime committed by people released from jail, but is eager to restrict access to guns.

Trolling.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It's a fantasy that you are chasing. Pure and simple.

... It's something that actually exists in other developed nations.

Now, we could be a little tougher on crime in general. But that won't stop the blaze of glory lottery winners.

You have the 2nd highest incarceration rate in the world. How much tougher on crime do you want to get?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Based strictly on what you quote here ... her petition makes claims that she is unlikely to be legally qualified to make (I assume she wasn't his doctor or something). That makes seizure of hypothetically legal weapons on some really shaky ground at best.

Okay, yes, I do agree that it's very shaky ground, but it should have hopefully merited some sort of follow up.

I'm also probably 100% sure these weren't legal guns anyways.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Most of the people killing in America are black

At least as of 2013, no.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

.


You have the 2nd highest incarceration rate in the world. How much tougher on crime do you want to get?

Then maybe some people "just deserve a killing"

All snarkiness aside I think a major overhaul of the justice system needs to happen.

Im not educated enough to know the hows and whys, but I know what Ive seen.
I have a distant partial cousin who grew up a 1%. (Honestly probably a .1%) At 19 he drove drunk, had a wrecked and killed his best friend.
He was sentenced to 5 years in state with no possibility of parole. He came out a gang member and an active part of a drug trade ring. Literally this dudes parents are deca-millionaires and he was dealing meth. He's been in and out of jail since and is currently out and 2 years sober. Trying to re-take his life. Listening to him tell stories of jail, it is not working.

It is teaching people how to be better criminals.

I dont know what the answer is. But there has to be rehabilitation as part of the process. Then at some point those who cant be rehabilitated there has to be some decisions what to do with them. TO get them segregated from the other inmates who are being rehabilitated.

I'm all for mistakes and 2nd even 3rd chances. Dont mistake that.But at what point does a guy not want to get better, then what.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

have a distant partial cousin who grew up a 1%. (Honestly probably a .1%) At 19 he drove drunk, had a wrecked and killed his best friend.
He was sentenced to 5 years in state with no possibility of parole. He came out a gang member and an active part of a drug trade ring. Literally this dudes parents are deca-millionaires and he was dealing meth. He's been in and out of jail since and is currently out and 2 years sober. Trying to re-take his life. Listening to him tell stories of jail, it is not working.

It is teaching people how to be better criminals.

I dont know what the answer is. But there has to be rehabilitation as part of the process. Then at some point those who cant be rehabilitated there has to be some decisions what to do with them. TO get them segregated from the other inmates who are being rehabilitated.

I'm all for mistakes and 2nd even 3rd chances. Dont mistake that.But at what point does a guy not want to get better, then what.

I don't know how accurate/fairly reported they are, but I've seen a number of (usually British) TV documentaries about the American for-profit prison system, and this example was pretty much in-line with any number of examples I've seen.

When you're sending young people not only to prison, but to prisons that have a reputation for being some of the worst in the developed world, for long periods of time at the 2nd highest rate in the world, is it surprising that a lot of them come out worse than when they went in, considering what they need to do to survive inside?

[AlexB]

Posting this here because it's the shooting thread nearest the top of the forum, and it's a desperately sad story

Virginia policewoman shot dead on first shift - BBC News

No-one should get killed doing a job at any time, but it seems worse somehow being 1st shift

[cuervo72]

Ugh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Posting this here because it's the shooting thread nearest the top of the forum, and it's a desperately sad story

Virginia policewoman shot dead on first shift - BBC News

No-one should get killed doing a job at any time, but it seems worse somehow being 1st shift

I had the same OMG reaction to the story when it broke, however the headlines do seem to be misleading.

She was on her first shift with this particular department. She had worked, albeit briefly, for a nearby department previously.

It's still, obviously, horrific. But the headlines are playing people for clicks.