NFL-Week 12

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

This seems to have become its own sport. My best guess is that the hyperactive media saturation has people talking and thinking at this level far more than ever before. It's not really that officials are suddenly all dimwits compared to the scholars they used to be. It's got to be us, right?

This year has been pretty poor. A lot of ridiculous calls and a lot of high profile calls that were simply wrong. the sad part is that a lot of these calls are affecting the post season. Imagine Detroit being 5-6, the Seahawks being 5-6 and Detroit controlling the tie breaker.

The problem for me isn't the calls last night. Defensive holding? OPI? Judgement calls. There will always be issues with those types of calls.

The calls I'm having the problems with are the OBVIOUS calls where either the refs didn't understand the rules or made a decision to to enforce then. Seattle bating the ball, the clock not stopping in the Buffalo game, the late hit on Brock by the Bears, the clock mismanagement in the Chargers/Steelers game. . . (for the record, the Brock late hit was not a judgement call, watch the play and tell me how that was a judgement call)

Those gaffes on OBVIOUS plays are making the other questionable decisions appear worse than what they are.


I think what you have Quck is two things:

1) The timing of these is what really seals the deal. Last night Von Miller was collared on a Patriots TD pass. You will never see a clearer holding if you watch every play of every game the rest of the season. It happened in the first half and I can't even remember which TD it is now because it happened in the first half. This leads me to #2

2) The announcers are starting to focus more on it and the plays they do focus on get people up in arms. Nobody bothered talking about Miller getting held yesterday. It simply wasn't mentioned. Gronk with OPI? That's a story. How many replays did we see of it? That's going to be ingrained in your brain regardless of who you cheer for. I'm sure everyone here can recall with pretty good detail the hold on Thomas last night. How many here can How many here remember the Miller holding penalty that wasn't called?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The Dolphins have fired their OC and promoted the QB coach to OC. Yeah, they promoted the guy who can't convince Tannehill to throw the ball past the first down marker on third down.

Pitiful.

Last summer, the Jags offense was reeling . It was ranked 31st in the nation and we downright egregious. We fired our guy and who did Gus hire? The OC for the 32nd ranked offense - the Raiders. A guy who had just been fired, and had been our QB coach role on our team a few years before. And you know what? Guy looks good so far. Good job Olsen!


It's just wonky how these things work sometimes, you know?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Not sure what move(s) they could realistically make right now would be of any value. Could you just fly in an outsider and launch a new system for next week? I doubt it. I think you're stuck with the current flight plan, but having a few more heads roll along the way seems fine to me.

I could get behind the firings if there seemed to be an end to the means. They fired the head coach and bypassed the OC and the DC to give the job to the tight ends coach. Four days later and before they even played a game under the new HC, they fired the DC. What changed? Seven games later and with only five guys left in the season, they are firing the OC. You gave the guy seven games to save his job while costing the team a possible(unrealistic for sure) playoff spot? If they are auditioning people for the future, then let them coach the rest of the season. Oh yeah, Coach Campbell about that strong running game that was going to be the basis of "new system". 9 carries 12 yards

[molson]

Gronk only had a bruise. That's ultimately more important for the patriots than the outcome of yesterday's game.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Not a Pats fan, but the three I have heard are the holding on the long pass completion, the OPI on Gronk, the defensive holding call on Chung and the first down OT play were Brady was screaming for the hold. (I never saw a replay of that one to know for sure)

The Pats have been my AFC team since the 90s (unlike most Pats and Giants fans in this rivalry between them, I like both teams). So...

The only penalty there that was total BS was the hold on Chung in the endzone. Considering that it would have been 3rd and goal from about the 15 if it weren't for the penalty in a situation at the end of the game where their opponents needed a TD, that was a big one. The other calls on the list though, they were the right calls.

Holding on the long pass (4th quarter, 3rd and 11, 11:40 left) - The OL had his hands on the outside of the shoulder pads and had an obvious hold of them. He turned Miller almost as if to give the official in the backfield the best look at it that he could possibly get.

OPI on Gronk - He clearly gives a shoulder check and then pushed him off with his forearm as he makes his cut. Hard to see by the officials which is one reason it doesn't get called much (like a boxer who gives those short punches to the ribs while clinched with the referee on the other side...ref can't see it), but by the rule, it is OPI.

Watched the first play of OT several times on GamePass and I don't think LaFell (the intended receiver) was even touched by the defender until the ball got there. The broadcast never showed a replay of it, though. Unless he was yelling about some other player being held...

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Speaking of Tannehill, is he the whiniest player in the entire league? Dude is always butthurt about something or other.

Originally Posted by Kodos

Do you mean Tom Brady? He's constantly riding the officials.

I thought that was Rivers, or maybe he just has that face that just makes you want to slap him so I just assume he is always doing that.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

This seems to have become its own sport. My best guess is that the hyperactive media saturation has people talking and thinking at this level far more than ever before. It's not really that officials are suddenly all dimwits compared to the scholars they used to be. It's got to be us, right?

I think it's also the overwhelming increase of camera angles and replays, as well as commentators criticizing refs more. I'm sure I'm affected by recency bias, but in the past when I've felt the Patriots were getting screwed I don't remember as much of a positive feedback loop from announcers.

I would be interested in seeing the numbers behind the point Cartman brought up. Most of us know the head officials, but I'm not sure anyone outside of maybe Dr. Sak can identify individual umpires and side judges who actually make the majority of the calls.

I do also think it's another thing we can blame on increased passing and spread offenses. What are the two most debated calls? Offensive holding during passing plays and PI/holding on downfield passes, especially because you have individual refs monitoring larger areas for longer periods of time. Usually on runs between the tackles penalties are easy to call and 90% of eyes were on it in real time.

Originally Posted by TroyF

You take all of the names away from this and pretend it's an FOF game, it would be one you would have been horrified to lose as the Broncos GM. We outgained them by 130+ yards, had the ball for 10 more minutes, turnover battle was even, they rushed for under 40 yards and I LOST?

I think what I wrote above will be dismissed. The narrative is the Patriots were screwed and beat up while the Broncos were somehow healthy and got lucky. (The Broncos played a lot of that game without 3 of their defensive starters by the way, nobody will mention that)

Shurg, it was under 100 yd difference until Hillman's TD run, rushing yards and thus T.O.P. don't mean what they used to (we put up 40 points while rushing for 56 yards vs the Bills, 30 points while rushing for 16 yards vs the Jets, etc), not all injuries are equal (The way NFL rosters are set up, when you get a run at one position it can kill you, and in our case Keshawn Martin and Johnathan Freeny should not be playing 95% of snaps), and most importantly saying the turnover battle was even is incredibly misleading. 3 balls hit the ground and Denver recovered all 3 (plus kind of another 50/50 call where Ebner came out of a pile with the ball - I agree the runner was likely down, but would've liked to see a replay.)

I do agree that it was an even game, and I hope the rematch is in NE, not Denver. But either way I would certainly favor us if Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, Collins, Hightower, Ward, Ware, Williams all are healthy by then. As far as the reffing, it wasn't the worst I've seen, and we didn't lose because of it. I will say it was eerily similar to the lacrosse game I coached in the last year where I felt screwed the most. In that case, same thing, had a decent lead and as the momentum shifted and they started coming back we had like 11 straight 50/50 calls go against us. It's not necessarily one egregious call, but an accumulation of 50/50 ones (and bouncing balls) against you that feels like you got screwed the most because one call builds on another.

Overall, I'd say that game pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the two teams, both now and when/if healthy. Denver has an elite D, but we're a marginally better overall team.

Originally Posted by Galaril

On that holding call it was 2nd and goal at the 7 before the call. I agree it was quaestioable at best. So even after the call they started 1st and goal at the 4 ! The next play was a pass completion buried in the endzone 8 yards in the back. The penalties did not decide this one at all.

Dude it went from 3rd & goal at the ~15 with no chance to call timeout and regroup to 1st & goal at the 4 (and presumably the Patriots leaning heavily towards stopping the run because Denver almost certainly should have run the ball there.) I'm not complaining about the calls that were made, but let's not pretend like that one didn't have a huge effect.

Originally Posted by jeff061

I won't speak for games I haven't watched, so this is anecdotal, I rarely watch games that aren't Pats games. The last 2 Pats games are easily top 5 of worse officiated games I've seen.

Despite my rantings in this thread, I'm generally not one to complain about bad calls, goes with the sport. Hell, to this day I'm in full support of getting rid of instant replay. But these have been bad. Last week was a lack of understanding/enforcing simple rules(run out of bounds and run the clock?) and an "inadvertent whistle" to negate a likely TD, yet was then spotted at the spot of catch despite whistle clearly being blown in the air. Clueless.

I don't think they were that bad, especially if I can compare it to college games. The 2 sideline incidents last week were bizarre (as well as the Bills not even arguing), but I'm 99% sure they called the inadvertent whistle play correctly. When an inadvertent whistle happens as the ball is in the air the play is dead at the spot once it's possessed - if Buffalo had picked it off I think it would've been Buffalo ball at that spot.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The Dolphins have fired their OC and promoted the QB coach to OC. Yeah, they promoted the guy who can't convince Tannehill to throw the ball past the first down marker on third down.

Pitiful.

Fire whichever guy decided to only hand the ball off 7 times. (I'm not counting the Landry end-around or the end of half run.) I know the Dolphins only touched the ball down less than 21 once in the second half and Jarvis Landry may have saved me in fantasy, but it was a 43:1 pass/run ratio (and the one run occurred on 1st and goal at the 5.) Mix in a draw play.

[bhlloy]

interesting point regarding the Dolphins, because not running the ball was what got Philbin fired, they looked a million times better the next few weeks because they established the run and now it seems they have forgotten all about it again. No, I'm not a Lamar Miller fantasy owner, why do you ask?

[Thomkal]

And the dominos begin to fall:

Chris Johnson out indefinitely with fractured tibia - NFL.com

[claphamsa]

feels like an insane number of people got hurt this week

[bhlloy]

The Browns have officially given up the ghost. I don't know if the Manziel decision was wrong or right but it's hard to say it's punishing him more than its punishing the team. Should have just cut him if they wanted to send a message

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

The Browns have officially given up the ghost. I don't know if the Manziel decision was wrong or right but it's hard to say it's punishing him more than its punishing the team. Should have just cut him if they wanted to send a message

Fwiw, someone mentioned he lied to Pettine about the video of him partying, so that could explain a little of it. But I do agree it's probably reached the point where it's time for the organization to move on.

Btw, the Matt Schaub "Pick 6" trend is a lot less shocking when you see the montage of them. That's a whole lot of throws off the back foot short and outside the numbers or to zone defenders just sitting there, ready to break forward at full speed.

[TroyF]

Bishop,

Honestly, this game really didn't teach me a lot about either team. About the only thing I learned is that Brock is very capable of making clutch throws.

Why?

Injuries. You weren't healthy and we weren't either. You had many guys on offense injured, we had a ton on defense injured. Our OLine was also beat up. Then you lost Hightower. Seriously, who knows what final form these teams will take in 8 weeks.

Patriots offense: Obviously, you were missing a ton of WR. Will all of them get back? Will Gronk protect one leg and get hurt on the other?

Broncos defense: I'll repeat what I said above. . . We were missing 3 defensive starters for a large portion of that game. One at each level. A defensive tackle, a linebacker and a starting safety. I know the narrative is that those injuries aren't as critical as the Patriots, but that's 27% of the top defense in football there. You will not convince me those injuries didn't have an impact last night.

Patriots defense: Hightower was a huge, huge loss. Collins is as big. Those two guys are huge.

Broncos offense: The Broncos OLine was already banged up and they lost another one during the game. This OLine, especially at the two G positions is hurting right now. Where did you hurt Denver last night? Up the middle. I wonder why. The Broncos will also have a different QB in 8 weeks. Either Manning will be there OR a much more seasoned Brock will be.

The Patriots are a GREAT football team. Don't take anything I say after this to say otherwise. . . but this is not like 2007 and hasn't been all year. The Patriots have had SEVEN games that were one score games in the fourth quarter. This includes every game they have played against a team with a winning record.

They are the clear favorites in the AFC, but I don't think this team is a juggernaut which can't be beat, even if everyone is healthy.

Last thing I'll say: Brady can get himself pissed of all he wants, it's completely classless of him as a player to say the refs gave Denver that game last night. What an amazing QB and what a first class douche bag.

[EagleFan]

Wow

[Abe Sargent]

Are you kidding me?

[cuervo72]

That's So Browns.

[wustin]

pats and broncos fan can argue all they want. It's a fruitless effort since the panthers are gonna win it all anyways.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Bishop,

Honestly, this game really didn't teach me a lot about either team. About the only thing I learned is that Brock is very capable of making clutch throws.

Why?

Injuries. You weren't healthy and we weren't either. You had many guys on offense injured, we had a ton on defense injured. Our OLine was also beat up. Then you lost Hightower. Seriously, who knows what final form these teams will take in 8 weeks.

Patriots offense: Obviously, you were missing a ton of WR. Will all of them get back? Will Gronk protect one leg and get hurt on the other?

Broncos defense: I'll repeat what I said above. . . We were missing 3 defensive starters for a large portion of that game. One at each level. A defensive tackle, a linebacker and a starting safety. I know the narrative is that those injuries aren't as critical as the Patriots, but that's 27% of the top defense in football there. You will not convince me those injuries didn't have an impact last night.

Patriots defense: Hightower was a huge, huge loss. Collins is as big. Those two guys are huge.

Broncos offense: The Broncos OLine was already banged up and they lost another one during the game. This OLine, especially at the two G positions is hurting right now. Where did you hurt Denver last night? Up the middle. I wonder why. The Broncos will also have a different QB in 8 weeks. Either Manning will be there OR a much more seasoned Brock will be.

The Patriots are a GREAT football team. Don't take anything I say after this to say otherwise. . . but this is not like 2007 and hasn't been all year. The Patriots have had SEVEN games that were one score games in the fourth quarter. This includes every game they have played against a team with a winning record.

They are the clear favorites in the AFC, but I don't think this team is a juggernaut which can't be beat, even if everyone is healthy.

Last thing I'll say: Brady can get himself pissed of all he wants, it's completely classless of him as a player to say the refs gave Denver that game last night. What an amazing QB and what a first class douche bag.

Yes but you have Peyton Manning coming back. Sadly, with his arm in the shape it is in he will only limit their offense. Unless, the Broncos make the very bold move of benching the best QB in NFL history they are limited come playoff time.

[wustin]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yes but you have Peyton Manning coming back. Sadly, with his arm in the shape it is in he will only limit their offense. Unless, the Broncos make the very bold move of benching the best QB in NFL history they are limited come playoff time.

Don't recall Unitas, Brady, or Montana ever playing for Denver. Manning would choke it up in postseason like he always does anyways.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by wustin

Don't recall Unitas, Brady, or Montana ever playing for Denver. Manning would choke it up in postseason like he always does anyways.

I feel pretty good about this list. Its unfortunate Manning couldnt play defense at the level he played qb or he would have more rings.

NFL Career Approximate Value (Weighted) Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

[wustin]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I feel pretty good about this list. Its unfortunate Manning couldnt play defense at the level he played qb or he would have more rings.

NFL Career Approximate Value (Weighted) Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

AV values longevity and it doesn't evaluate intangibles or post-season. That list has Brett Favre over a lot of players. Manning is arguably the best regular season QB of all time (winning 4 MVPs), I will not dispute that.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yes but you have Peyton Manning coming back. Sadly, with his arm in the shape it is in he will only limit their offense. Unless, the Broncos make the very bold move of benching the best QB in NFL history they are limited come playoff time.

it all depends. Remember how good Manning looked after the bye week against the Packers? Who is to say the Broncos won't need him again and that the rest proves good for his arm?

I still remember Bledsoe with the Patriots. They needed him in the AFC title game. If Brock continues to play well, I think he'll stay as the starter. There is a LONG way to go before the playoffs. How will the Denver offense look come playoff time? Who the hell knows. Your guess is as good as mine. That's why I don't think we really learned a ton from this game.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

This seems to have become its own sport. My best guess is that the hyperactive media saturation has people talking and thinking at this level far more than ever before. It's not really that officials are suddenly all dimwits compared to the scholars they used to be. It's got to be us, right?

I absolutely hate blaming the refs for things. It seems like a cop out, and an overreaction to anecdotal evidence that may or may not even be real. That being said, I need to own that I've done an awful lot of complaining about the refs in recent years. I almost wonder if it has to do with the teams I enjoy having success recently, so they are in more 'big games' that mean more, magnifying the importance of all the little calls.

Then again...

Originally Posted by cartman

There has been quite a bit of turnover in the officiating ranks. I think I saw a number that 30% have been in the NFL for only one or two years.

The crew who was working the 49ers game yesterday was Pete Morelli's crew. This is the same crew that was under fire for the Monday night Chargers-Steelers game (the side judge was suspended without pay by the league for failing to keep track of the time properly), took a win away from the Ravens, and now has been under serious fire from many sources about the 49er-Cardinal game. I had a normally reasonable friend from out-of-state (he hates the 49ers) call me to tell me that he was almost convinced that the officiating was doing everything in their power to make sure the 49ers didn't win the game yesterday.

I think there's probably a little more to this than more scrutiny.

[wustin]

Ravens Block Last-Second Field Goal & Return it to Win the Game! | Browns vs. Ravens | NFL - YouTube

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

That's So Browns.

Only just seen this. This is above and beyond even the Browns' usual standard. They really raised the bar on this one

[JPhillips]

This is incredible.

every-browns-loss-since-1999-ranked/

[Logan]

PFT is reporting that the crew from the SF-ARI game has been pulled from the upcoming MNF game they were scheduled to work.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I still have not seen enough replays to see if there was helmet to helmet contact. If there was, it is my understanding they have to call it no matter how incidental it was. But I can understand why 49'ers fans are upset-both with that call, and about 4 calls in a row against them when the Cards were at the goal line in the 3rd quarter. Whomever was responsible for keeping track of the downs early in the game should be suspended for a game. There was no reason for the confusion, and it was almost comical with how long it took to figure it out.

Palmer was saying there was helmet to helmet contact. Dial said Palmer ducked into the tackle.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Palmer was saying there was helmet to helmet contact. Dial said Palmer ducked into the tackle.

And Mike Pereira said it was an awful call. Regardless, Morelli and crew have been demoted and it might be time for him to hang it up. He's presided over a number of the really bad incidents over the last couple of years.

[jeff061]

I don't think they were that bad, especially if I can compare it to college games. The 2 sideline incidents last week were bizarre (as well as the Bills not even arguing), but I'm 99% sure they called the inadvertent whistle play correctly. When an inadvertent whistle happens as the ball is in the air the play is dead at the spot once it's possessed - if Buffalo had picked it off I think it would've been Buffalo ball at that spot

Quite sure when the whistle is blown with the ball in the air it's incomplete. It's not spotted where the catch was made post whistle being blown. I figured they gave them the catch to make up for the horrible whistle.

[Logan]

Correct. It should have been a replayed down with the ball in the air at the time of the whistle.

[sabotai]

Logan's got it right. From the rulebook:

Rule 7, Section 2

(n) when an official sounds his whistle while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately;
(i) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it has been declared dead or to replay the down.
(ii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down.
(iii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a legal forward pass, a free kick, a fair-catch kick, or a scrimmage kick, the ball is returned to the previous spot, and the down is replayed.

[Solecismic]

Regarding the Patriots, there's a delicate line between using perceived adversity as a motivation and simply whining about the refs. I'm not sure which side of the line they're on right now. We'll know much more from their play on Sunday.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Regarding the Patriots, there's a delicate line between using perceived adversity as a motivation and simply whining about the refs. I'm not sure which side of the line they're on right now. We'll know much more from their play on Sunday.

No reason it can't be both.

[spleen1015]

No doubt they are a bunch of whiny bitches.

[Kodos]

And how.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is incredible.

every-browns-loss-since-1999-ranked/

Site is brilliant. I think he undersells this one, though... I think I'd place it #3 (he suggested about #10 with a timely edit to an older pre-written piece). I wasn't sure where to rank the top two myself, but he sold me with his decision in his write-up.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is incredible.


every-browns-loss-since-1999-ranked/

I like to look at this picture and imagine that Richardson and Weeden are the guys on the outside of the shot. It seems more Cleveland that way.

spoiled for size

Spoiler