3-4 too prevalent in FOF 5?

[HornedFrog Purple]

I am only 3 years into my Cowboys career, but it looks like a lot of teams are switching to the 3-4, especially some that never had a history of doing it. Right now 14 teams in the league are using it (edit: in my sim).

What this is resulting in is a lot of good "NT"s being available in free agency. While I can take one and switch his position to LDT or RDT depending on how I perceive him, I am wondering if the AI teams are taking advantage of this, or the NT's are only being used by 3-4 teams.

Are there a lot of teams playing the 3-4 now in anyone else's sims further in a career?

[VPI97]

I think it just means that more good inside linebackers are being generated than good defensive tackles. The computer's defensive selection comes from what makes more sense to run...if their 2nd ILB is better than their 2nd DT, they're gonna use the 3-4.

[HornedFrog Purple]

yeah, I am just wondering if because they have the "NT" listed as their position if the AI teams that run the 4-3 do not look at them. Since good DT's are harder to come by anyways, and they might be ignoring these nose tackles that this is resulting in more teams switching to the 3-4.

[HornedFrog Purple]

do...la doh doh doh doh do...la...

The next season 2 more teams switched to the 3-4 which makes it 16 or half the league. I am just wondering if this is just a freak occurance in this particular league of mine or if its going on in anyone elses.

[Bee]

I've seen the same thing in 3 careers I've played (2 pre-patch). Too many 3-4 defenses IMO.

[GoSeahawks]

There are 8 teams in my league using 3-4 in the year 2007. How many teams in the NFL are strictly 3-4?

[Bee]

The Steelers were the only team that used a base 3-4 a couple years ago, since then a couple more teams have started going that way but it's very uncommon. I'd guess maybe 4 teams use it, something like that.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Bee
The Steelers were the only team that used a base 3-4 a couple years ago, since then a couple more teams have started going that way but it's very uncommon. I'd guess maybe 4 teams use it, something like that.

Steelers, Falcons, Patriots, Texans as far as I know.

[Bee]

Are the Ravens using the 3-4? I wasn't sure about them or the Patriots.

I think this revival of the 3-4 will be very short. It's one thing when the Steeler defense was dominant a couple years ago, but none of the teams running a 3-4 have what I consider a dominating defense this year and some of them are pretty bad and will most likely switch to a more conventional 4-3 next year. JMO.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Bee
Are the Ravens using the 3-4? I wasn't sure about them or the Patriots.

I think this revival of the 3-4 will be very short. It's one thing when the Steeler defense was dominant a couple years ago, but none of the teams running a 3-4 have what I consider a dominating defense this year and some of them are pretty bad and will most likely switch to a more conventional 4-3 next year. JMO.

It's really the same as FOF. If more LB's start coming up, the 3-4 will take off again. Teams are going to play their best players for the most part. If that dictates a 3/4, that's what will happen.

TroyF

[Bee]

Originally posted by TroyF
It's really the same as FOF. If more LB's start coming up, the 3-4 will take off again. Teams are going to play their best players for the most part. If that dictates a 3/4, that's what will happen.

TroyF

I don't know if I really agree. I think the 3-4 has some inherent disadvantages that can only be overcome by "significant" LB talent. I think in FOF that's not really conveyed very well and it tends to lead to too many teams playing what in real life is an inferior defensive scheme just because of a minimal talent advantage.

[Pyser]

in the 80s only 2 or 3 teams used the 4-3. sometime in the next 10-20 years, the league will switch back to a 3-4, because offenses will have just found too many flaws in a 4-3. then the offenses will adapt to the 3-4, and it will switch back again.

id be interested to see if 15 years later in a fof2k4 career, if most of the 304 teams start switching back to 4-3. could be a cool little feature, actually.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Pyser
in the 80s only 2 or 3 teams used the 4-3. sometime in the next 10-20 years, the league will switch back to a 3-4, because offenses will have just found too many flaws in a 4-3. then the offenses will adapt to the 3-4, and it will switch back again.

Not sure I follow your logic. There was a time when no one threw forward passes, that doesn't mean we'll go back to running those type of offenses (except for SkyDog of course).

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Bee
I don't know if I really agree. I think the 3-4 has some inherent disadvantages that can only be overcome by "significant" LB talent. I think in FOF that's not really conveyed very well and it tends to lead to too many teams playing what in real life is an inferior defensive scheme just because of a minimal talent advantage.

The 3-4's does have disadvantages, but better to play a 3-4 with "good" (as opposed to, and less than significant) LB talent, than to play a 4-3 with DTs that are "below NFL caliber" wouldn't you say?

[Bee]

Originally posted by Samdari
The 3-4's does have disadvantages, but better to play a 3-4 with "good" (as opposed to, and less than significant) LB talent, than to play a 4-3 with DTs that are "below NFL caliber" wouldn't you say?

I agree there's a point where it makes more sense to play the 3-4 depending on talent, but I think it has to be a significant talent difference to make up for the disadvantages you have with the 3-4.

Edit:

14 teams using it seems high to me.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Bee
I agree there's a point where it makes more sense to play the 3-4 depending on talent, but I think it has to be a significant talent difference to make up for the disadvantages you have with the 3-4.

Edit:

14 teams using it seems high to me.

in your opinion, what are the inherent disadvantages of a 3-4?

[Bonegavel]

I guess a good question to ask is, are the 3-4 teams doing well? If there are 16 teams using it and they occupy the last 16 ranks of defensive units in the league, that is flawed. If they are doing well, it is a good thing.

[Fritz]

I wonder if it has anything do with not being able to afford DTs.

[Bee]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Steelers, Falcons, Patriots, Texans as far as I know.

I just looked and saw where the Patriots are playing mostly 4-3 this season because of injuries early in the season. Atlanta is also switching more to the 4-3 because of injuries.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Bee
I just looked and saw where the Patriots are playing mostly 4-3 this season because of injuries early in the season. Atlanta is also switching more to the 4-3 because of injuries.

Perfect example in the Patriots and Falcons.

The Falcons aren't switching back because of injury as much a ineffectiveness.

Defensive genius Billy B. thought the 3-4 was the best option for him this year. Colvin goes out and he switches it up. (though they still play a lot of 3/4)

There ARE some disadvantages of a 3/4 defense. There are also some real advantages. The biggest advantage being you can get more speed on the field and essentially throw a different "blitz" on the offense every play. (you rush a 4th player 95% of the time, that player can come from anywhere)

It still comes down to talent level. If you have 5 LB's that deserve playing time and only 4 DL, you are probably better off going to a 3/4 in the long run.

As for WHY FOF is doing this, I'm wondering if Fritz doesn't have a point. If DT's are too expensive to sign for the AI, they may go to more LB's. When I simmed through the 2040 season, however, some of my most expensive players were LB's. I'm not sure they'd see that great of a savings with the 3/4.

TroyF

[Bee]

Originally posted by TroyF
Perfect example in the Patriots and Falcons.

The Falcons aren't switching back because of injury as much a ineffectiveness.

Defensive genius Billy B. thought the 3-4 was the best option for him this year. Colvin goes out and he switches it up. (though they still play a lot of 3/4)

There ARE some disadvantages of a 3/4 defense. There are also some real advantages. The biggest advantage being you can get more speed on the field and essentially throw a different "blitz" on the offense every play. (you rush a 4th player 95% of the time, that player can come from anywhere)

It still comes down to talent level. If you have 5 LB's that deserve playing time and only 4 DL, you are probably better off going to a 3/4 in the long run.

As for WHY FOF is doing this, I'm wondering if Fritz doesn't have a point. If DT's are too expensive to sign for the AI, they may go to more LB's. When I simmed through the 2040 season, however, some of my most expensive players were LB's. I'm not sure they'd see that great of a savings with the 3/4.

TroyF

I agree. I'm not saying that the 3-4 should be eliminated. There should be some teams that run a 3-4 because of talent and personnel. If I were running Pittsburgh or New England (or probably the Redskins this year), I'd have used a 3-4 base defense. I don't necessarily agree with Houston or Atlanta doing it, but that's just my opinion. I just think that 14 teams doing so 3 years from now doesn't make sense.

[yabanci]

I strongly agree that too many teams use the 3-4 in FOF2k4. What troubles me is if you look at many of the teams running it one of their inside linebackers is an undrafted first year player. It's definitely something that should be looked at IMO, but the FOF series has always had this quirk.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well actually it is very difficult to find an effective nose tackle in real life. It is basically what gets the whole defense going. The Texans had a pretty decent defense until Seth Payne went out for the season, but usually you can use a guy like Ted Washington who just makes a pile. Nobody cares about us tackles anyways.

I checked the league stats, top 10 in yards allowed: 5 4-3 and 5 3-4, scoring defense 6 for 3-4, 4 for 4-3. So for half the league using the 3-4 they are getting production.

This quirk has been around from before, but I don't remember so many teams switching to it, usually maybe 6 to 8.

[Pyser]

Originally posted by Bee
Not sure I follow your logic. There was a time when no one threw forward passes, that doesn't mean we'll go back to running those type of offenses (except for SkyDog of course).

the difference between running a 3-4 vs a 4-3 is a lot different than an offense that doesnt pass

all i meant was that should offenses seem to have an upper hand on the 4-3, and a few teams start finding success with the 3-4, you can expect more teams to switch to the 3-4. its a copycat league. in the 80s, teams won using a 3-4. at some point (around 90, perhaps?) teams started winning with a 4-3, and suddenly more teams around the league were using that a base defense.

if the 2000 ravens had dominated the league the way they had using a 3-4, i think we'd already be seeing 10 or more teams using the 3-4 (please ignore the fact that the ravens are in fact now using a 3-4)

[cthomer5000]

The Ravens ran a 4-3 in 2000, and only switched to a 3-4 last year.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
The Ravens ran a 4-3 in 2000, and only switched to a 3-4 last year.

He said that in his post.

His point was that there will be a dominant team with the 3/4 that will win a title. When that happens, they copycats will start.

I think the main reason more teams are using the 4/3 than the 3/4 is because of the things we've already discussed.

Look at the amount of talented defensive tackles out of the last 5 or 6 drafts.

From the 2001 draft:

Gerrard Warren
Richard Seymour
Damione Lewis
Marcus Stroud
Casey Hampton
Ryan Pickett
Kris Jenkins
Shaun Rogers

2002

Ryan Sims
John Henderson
Wendell Bryant
Albert Haynsworth

2003

Dewayne Robertson
Johnathan Sullivan
Kevin Williams
William Joeseph
Jimmy Kennedy (bust)
Ty Warren

Those are all first or second round DT's picked in the last three drafts. A couple of busts in there, but a lot of starters. A lot of VERY good starters.

Now look at the LB core over the same period. Nick Barnett, Robert Thomas, Dan Morgan. Barnett might be a great one. The other two are average at best. The last truly great LB class came out in 2000. (Arrington, Urlacher, Morris, Bullock, Peterson all in round 1, Gold, Ulbrich, Simeneau, Diggs all taken in the later rounds)

Until the LB classes improve, there won't be a lot of people moving to the 3/4.

TroyF