Railroad Tycoon 3 out tomorrow

[Tasan]

Ick. If there isn't an all encompassing, play for 100 years mode, I'm not going to buy it. My favorite game in the original was the whole USA for 100 years or so, I never played the scenarios.

[STK]

A map of the entire USA isn't available either.

Both that and a longer time frame are apparently available through editor options, but don't hold your breath until someone creates and releases it.

Other than that, it is a very solid game out of the box though.

[azjoe_02]

Originally posted by STK
A map of the entire USA isn't available either.

[daedalus]

According to a post in that thread I posted earlier, I think Phil Steinmeyer said that you can just go into the editor and change the "winning condition" (ie, clear it out) for an open-ended game.

[daedalus]

For you folks waiting for the game or impressions of the game . . .

There's an impression thread over at Gone Gold. Seems favourable amongst those who have it.

RE: Concerns about open-ended game, here's a bit of suggestion from Phil Steinmeyer:

Uncheck it as 'campaign'. Delete the 3 or 4 events that control the gold/silver/bronze/lose stuff (they're almost always the top 4 events in the event list). Delete any other events you don't like. Save the map (use a new name so you don't overwrite the original.) Go back to the main menu. Select Single Player-New Scenario. Select the map you just saved. Start game. Voila - You'll have all the money stuff on, but no win/lose events (or no events at all, if you deleted them all.)

Takes <2 minutes.

Yeah, it's a workaround. But, hey, if it works . . .

[Taur]

I am just dissapointed to learn that the campaigns can be completed in about an hour per campaign. Less depth and more pretty colors.

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by Taur
I am just dissapointed to learn that the campaigns can be completed in about an hour per campaign. Less depth and more pretty colors.

That seems to be the general trend in the industry - with the console-mentality reaching the PC. You see this typically in the click-fest, static RTS games and even to a game like RoN where I can go either way but the emphasis and publicity is on completing a mission in an hour. Can't anyone play a strategy game for days and weeks on end anymore?

[FloridaFringe]

I do agree that there should be some variation in mission length however part of the problem in the past was that variation only came buy adding to each consecutive mission. This would usually result in a game that you would play for a week straight and then end up not completing it because you knew that the final mission would take upwards of four hours and the enthusiasm for starting it just wasn't there. A nice mix or an up and down fluctuation in the length variable would go a long way toward solving the burnout factor.

[STK]

United States map

http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14424&sid=170172665ccb96c2258f98ed6e166f63

[Coffee Warlord]

So for those of you who've bought it. Is it worth it?

Keep in mind I, like most of us, like the open-ended, weeks and weeks of playing and cultivating an empire type deal. Should I bother picking it up?

[Tasan]

It looks like you should go to that link provided and get the USA map. The forum there seems to say that its a real nice open ended large scenario.

[Taur]

Sounds like Railroad Tycoon 3 is trying to appeal to the masses and be more like its brother Rollercoaster tycoon.

Review


Summation from review:
Basically, if you liked the previous versions but had a hankering to watch your trains in 3D glory, then this is the game for you. But if you're looking for an innovative bit of sim gaming then there are far better examples out there for you to try.

[GabeRivers]

I've logged about 20 hours. I've enjoyed the game, but there remains some uncertainty as to whether I'll move it to my "great" category.

The open-ended aspect is absolutely no problem. As described above, you can easily make any available map open-ended in less than two minutes. Simply go to "extras" on the main menu and then open the editor (which is much improved). Eliminate any or all events, make any other changes you want (e.g., start date), and save it with your chosen name. You now have an open-ended scenario map that you can use over and over.

The USA map that is currently available is pretty good, but it needs some editing if you want to set the start year back to the 1800's. Too many of the cities are already too large, so it makes it too easy to become very profitable very quickly.

My current concern with the game relates to the handling of cargo. They are very proud of their changes in this area (the constant flow of material and goods on its own, by foot, wagon, or river). It is very elaborate, but the jury is still out on whether this adds to the player's enjoyment. You no longer have to be specific regarding types of cargo loads (although you still can). I'm now playing on the "hard" level and still beating the crap out of the AI, by doing nothing more than connecting up cities and creating trains for "cargo" and separate trains for "passengers/mail". The cargo trains will automatically deliver the most profitable cargo available.

[Taur]

Hold- up GabeRivers, are you telling me that you no longer have to "Plan" your train?

Gone are the days of getting coal and iron to a city to make steel, then taking your steel and meeting up with another train carring Tires from a seaport at an auto plant to make a car. Then finally it is off to a city that will "Accept" your autos.

More importantly how are the financials in this version. RR2 was an excelent financial sim.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Taur
Hold- up GabeRivers, are you telling me that you no longer have to "Plan" your train?

Gone are the days of getting coal and iron to a city to make steel, then taking your steel and meeting up with another train carring Tires from a seaport at an auto plant to make a car. Then finally it is off to a city that will "Accept" your autos.

More importantly how are the financials in this version. RR2 was an excelent financial sim.

Yup, that's right. It is a MUCH more loosely defined economic system. You no longer have clusters of 3 cattle yards where you build a junction and then haul the cows off to whatever city has a meat packing plant.

You'll still need iron and coal to make steel, but in RT3 you don't HAVE to build a station next to a coal mine. You can, but it isn't a necessity. The game "moves" resources from where they are supplied to where they are demanded. So a load of coal could be "trucked" to a train station and then carried to a series of stations until it eventually made it to it's destination. Likewise, if a cattle ranch is near a meat packing facility, the railroads aren't even required to move the cows to the meat plant.

Therefore the "economy" is much less dependent on you the gamer getting goods from one place to another.


As far as financials, are you talking about the stock market, or the prices of goods?

[Buccaneer]

Therefore the "economy" is much less dependent on you the gamer getting goods from one place to another.

That was the focus of the previous games???? What do we do now, just watch the pretty trains in full 3-D?

[Coffee Warlord]

I played for a few hours last night.

I could have lived without buying this game.

As Bucc just said, I feel like I'm just watching the pretty trains in full 3D. My interaction is basically limited to (if I want to make money) buying a station, laying track, and sticking a train on it. No need to choose cars, because it'll carry whatever maxes the cash. No need to strategically link hauling routes, it makes no difference. Basically, you pick a town and spider out, letting your trains rake in the cash for you.

It's not horrible, mind you, but I just don't feel any immersion, no sense that I am building a massive rail empire, nothing. Feh.

Edit: What the hell happened to thoughtful, long term strategic economic games? I'm really tired of dumbed down, look at the pretty lights, beat the game in 2 hours shit.

For sale or trade, make an offer.

[Buccaneer]

No need to strategically play?? No thanks. Don't they realize not all gamers are stupid idiots with a joystick/gamepad?

[azjoe_02]

Originally posted by Coffee Warlord
For sale or trade, make an offer.

Already!!!

[Taur]

Originally posted by Taur
Hold- up GabeRivers, are you telling me that you no longer have to "Plan" your train?

I think my question was answered, but I will try to ask it again---straight forward.---Do you have to plan your train---3 Cattle cards--->3 food cards----see RR1 and RR2


And, is this an option..aka difficuly level adjustment.

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by Taur
I think my question was answered, but I will try to ask it again---straight forward.---Do you have to plan your train---3 Cattle cards--->3 food cards----see RR1 and RR2


And, is this an option..aka difficuly level adjustment.

Excellent questions.

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Taur
Sounds like Railroad Tycoon 3 is trying to appeal to the masses and be more like its brother Rollercoaster tycoon.

Review


Summation from review:
Basically, if you liked the previous versions but had a hankering to watch your trains in 3D glory, then this is the game for you. But if you're looking for an innovative bit of sim gaming then there are far better examples out there for you to try.

Um...take this review with a HUGE BOULDER of salt, not just a grain of salt. It appears that not only was this (very poorly written) review was by someone who didn't like that genre of game (this same individual also panned the latest AOW, which got almost universally positive reviews), but it has been determined by PopTop that this "review" was based off an ALPHA of the game. Anyone who would post a review based on an alpha has no credibility at all.

[Buccaneer]

Blacky, but what's your thoughts? You seem to have an astute eye for playability.

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Blacky, but what's your thoughts? You seem to have an astute eye for playability.

Haven't played it yet, so I can't really say. I just know the review is BS. However, a couple of people who are usually spot-on said it's pretty good.

[Buzzbee]

Bucc - I wouldn't give up on it yet. I've only had a few hours to stoke the coals and there isn't as much need to specify the consists of your trains. However, the pricing model leaves room for decision making and human intervention.

In a nutshell, products from one station are demanded at other stations. The prices are determined by the demand at the other stations. Sitting here thinking about it, I liken the model to Port Royale which I know you are familiar with. Flood a particular port with product and the price will go down. Neglect it and the price will go up. The big difference between 2 & 3 is that the products available aren't necessarily determined by what is around your station.

[Buzzbee]

Dola - For me the jury is still out. It seems like you have less control (or should I say less need to control) your trains. However, I think the "Front Office" aspect may be stronger than previous versions.

I guess my initial impression is that this is less about operating the railroad and more about managing it.

[Buccaneer]

Buzzbee, that does sound encouraging. I like front office managing (obviously) but one of the main attractions of RRT1 and RRT2 was planning your routes to gather resources and then to manufacturing and eventually to market. It became a spatial strategic game that provides the foundation for a profitable empire, along with take-overs of other lines. In thinking about it more, I guess I really didn't like the micromanagement (there's that word again) of managing consists but I certainly loved to plan and manage the resource chain. Comment?

[Buzzbee]

Then a fun aspect for you might be to focus on buying industries and ensuring the appropriate resources make it to that industry, and that the product is hauled to where it will be profitable.

This is one example the manual uses to explain why you might want to manually select cargos. Usually you want the most profitable cargo. However, if you own the meat packing plant, you might want to bring cows in from Town X instead of more profitable clothing. This would supply the meat packing plant, producing revenue from there in addition to the hauling of cows. As a result, hauling cows MIGHT end up being more profitable, even though the profit margin on clothing is higher.

This is one area that I haven't really tinkered with, and feel needs some more game time for me to get a better understanding. In the few hours I have played, I was just starting to grasp the concept of product appearing at a station, even though there wasn't a resource within the terminal radius.

If I get the chance, I'll try to post some screens so that you can visualize the aspect of product movement, and also the pricing model. It would be tonight though.

[GabeRivers]

OK. I’ve played a lot more, and the more I’ve played, the more I like this game. They’ve done a remarkable job with the economic model. I definitely recommend giving it a try.

Taur, you can construct your trains to move 3 cattle cars to a station near a meat processing plant, but the system is not nearly as simplistic as I first thought, nor is it nearly as simplistic as RRT2’s economic model. Once you learn to read the overview maps and understand what they are showing you, you begin to gain a true appreciation of what this game offers.

As each new resource or product is “born” (produced), it comes forth like a chick out of the shell, head turning looking for food and mama. Every point on the map has a value for that product, reflected as being plus or minus the value of where it currently sits. Like water flowing to low spots, it will begin to move toward higher values. Obviously, I don’t know the underlying algorithms, but speed of movement and distance are clearly important factors in the product’s decision as to which profit point to move toward.

Rails move product the fastest, so the product will choose to go by train if the train leads to a desired profit point. You can look at your overview map and see that you have a source of livestock, for example, close enough to one of your stations that cargo is accumulating there. You might then see a high demand for livestock near one of your other stations, perhaps because of a nearby meat processing plant. In RRT2, you would build a train to specifically transport the livestock, and you would probably have the train return an equal number of food cars. You can still do that, but it’s probably not what you want to do. In RRT3, your best choice is to set the train to move any cargo between the 2 stations. If the livestock on one end, and the meat on the other, are the most profitable choices, then that’s what will be transported. However, there might be other more profitable cargos available at either station, and if so, that’s what the train will pick up.

The important thing to note is that the system is dynamic. The profit points are not static. As supply moves to meet demand, the demand falls. What they have accomplished to mimic the free market is really pretty amazing. That’s why you normally don’t want to set up your trains like you did in RRT2. If that meat processing plant receives all the meat it wants, it will refuse to continue paying the same high prices, so your profit margins are squeezed, making other types of cargo more profitable to move between two stations. The only time I specify exact cargos is when I’ve built a spur to a small station around a cluster of a given resource. That doesn’t happen often, but sometimes it’s a good fit. Let’s say I own a station with a brewery, and player B also owns a station with a brewery. We both have a demand for grain. Suppose there is a cluster of 3 grain farms away from both stations, but closer to player B’s station than to mine. Assuming the profit is equal at both stations, most of that grain will tend to “walk” to player B’s station in deference to mine. However, if I built a new station by the cluster and a track to my station, the grain is coming to me by choice.

I could go on, but this post has gotten too long. In closing, let me simply add that the game is very stable, and the interface is quite good. Also, they’ve really improved the editor. I expect to see a lot of great maps coming out in the near future.

[Cringer]

This last post is great to hear GabeRivers. I looke forward to playing this game this week when i take off. I bought the game on Sunday morning, but have not had the chance to do anything but the tutorials since i tend to spend as much home time focusing more on my kid and wife when we are all awake at the same time as i can........but what the tutorials said to me in the game about the "economic model" and the movement of freight, i figured i would pick it up more as i go, but i think what you said just cleared it up a bunch for me with how you explained it........soooo..........

YOU GET A GOLD STAR FOR THE DAY, and can even skip nap time to play RRT3.........

[vex]

Originally posted by Taur


Basically, if you liked the previous versions but had a hankering to watch your trains in 3D glory, then this is the game for you. But if you're looking for an innovative bit of sim gaming then there are far better examples out there for you to try.

Where?!?!

[Buzzbee]

Bucc/Anyone -
The following are some screen prints. I apologize in advance if they are unwieldy or otherwise difficult to view. I also apologize in advance for the lenghty post, as there is a lot of info to cover, and I tend to be verbose anyway. Lastly, this will have to be in separate posts, since I can only attach one file per post.

Image One: Here is a regular view of Lowell and Manchester (New Hampshire, I think). A competitor has a railroad running between the two cities. Near the bottom left you'll see a white arrow. That is pointing to a cattle ranch. At the bottom, you see the financials for the cattle ranch.

[Buzzbee]

The second screen shot is not very pretty. It is of the same area, but this time rather than the regular view, you are seeing the Cargo view. The green area is where prices tend to be higher. They yellow area is where prices are moderate. You can't see it, but to the left of Keene there is an area of red, which is an area where prices are lower.

Ok, on to the next aspect of the screen print. You can still see Lowell and Manchester, and where the cattle ranch is you see a big pink triangle. At the top of the screen in Manchester there is a green triangle. The pink triangle denotes an area of supply, and the green denotes an area of demand. That is a Meat Packing Plant in Manchester.

Now for the BIGGIE! See those black shapes between the ranch and the packing plant? Those are carloads of cattle. If I were to hold the cursor over one of them (which I didn't for the screen print ) you would see at the very bottom of the screen the price and quantity of each carload. The qty can be 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, etc.

Note: The cattle are moving DIRECTLY to the Meat Packing Plant. That is the difference.

[Buzzbee]

More tomorrow.

[Tasan]

Lordy, just reading about all this made me pull out my copy of Railroad Tycoon Deluxe, fire up my DOS box and play straight through a career tonight. I really love that game.

[Buzzbee]

Now for some of the pricing. In image three we're back to a normal view. You can see the city of New York. First, look at the bottom of the screen and you'll see the station info for NY. Notice that some of the items are shaded, or greyed out. Those are items that are not available at the station. Obviously, those that aren't, such as mail, produce and milk are available and the quantity available and price are listed next to the icon. For example, the purple icon just below the N in NY is clothing. You can see that there are 5.5 carloads of clothing available at a current price of $181.

As you move your cursor over the various products (or click, I can't remember which) the screen/popup on the right displays. It gives detailed information on that particular item. For the screen shot, I had my cursor over clothing (obviously). In this display you can see the info for NY, but also for other stations SUPPLYING that product. In this screen shot, Allentown also supplies clothing and for a much cheaper price, $162. You can also see the quantity on hand. Lower in the display you can see the stations that DEMAND that product. The most notable is Manchester which will pay $208 for a load of clothing. They must have a bunch of nekkid people up there! Likewise, you'll see the other stations and what they are willing to pay, and also the quantities they have on hand to ship.

That's the basics of it. Hopt this helps.