NFL Week 16

[MizzouRah]

Again.. how did the Rams beat New Orleans?

I can see Coach Spagnuolo calling the owner now.. "You do know we beat that team?".

[Antmeister]

Damn....two former Chargers made the record possible. Ugh.

[larrymcg421]

I knew Dan's record had to end someday. I'm glad it took so long for it to be broken. Congrats to Brees.

Also on the record front, Aaron Rodgers' great day moved him back in front for the season QB rating record.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I knew Dan's record had to end someday. I'm glad it took so long for it to be broken. Congrats to Brees.

Also on the record front, Aaron Rodgers' great day moved him back in front for the season QB rating record.

In a game that means nothing, it will be interesting to see how much he plays.

[RainMaker]

The record is sort of meaningless now though with how much the rules have changed. Marino's season is still much more impressive than what Brees has done this year. Brees is a great QB, but you can't compare their accomplishments.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The record is sort of meaningless now though with how much the rules have changed. Marino's season is still much more impressive than what Brees has done this year. Brees is a great QB, but you can't compare their accomplishments.

SC_DougFarrar SC_DougFarrar
Talked to coaches/ex-coaches/tape junkies about complexity of modern defenses. Much tougher to throw against them. Narrative not so simple.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The record is sort of meaningless now though with how much the rules have changed. Marino's season is still much more impressive than what Brees has done this year. Brees is a great QB, but you can't compare their accomplishments.

In 1984, the average pass yardage per game league-wide was 228.2. Marino averaged 317.8.

In 2011, the average pass yardage per game league-wide is 243.4. Brees is averaging 341.4.

It means the "busting the record in only 15 games" part isn't all that meaningful, but their seasons are quite comparable, with Brees actually having a slightly higher rate vs. the league average.

[larrymcg421]

The league average INT% is 2.9 in 2011 and 4.1 in 1984.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The record is sort of meaningless now though with how much the rules have changed. Marino's season is still much more impressive than what Brees has done this year. Brees is a great QB, but you can't compare their accomplishments.

Sure you can. They're right about the same. Brees is about 40% higher than league average, Marino was 39%.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

SC_DougFarrar SC_DougFarrar
Talked to coaches/ex-coaches/tape junkies about complexity of modern defenses. Much tougher to throw against them. Narrative not so simple.

Probably why teams are completing 60% of their passes versus 56% in 1984, with 1/3 less INT.

[LloydLungs]

Brees' INT% is 2.1. Marino's was 3.0. Slight advantage to Marino, but still quite comparable.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

Brees' INT% is 2.1. Marino's was 3.0. Slight advantage to Marino, but still quite comparable.

Wouldn't that be a slight advantage to Brees?

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

SC_DougFarrar SC_DougFarrar
Talked to coaches/ex-coaches/tape junkies about complexity of modern defenses. Much tougher to throw against them. Narrative not so simple.

This also assumes offenses stayed the same. Let's not forget Bress did it in 15 games.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Wouldn't that be a slight advantage to Brees?

Marino was slightly further under the league average in 1984 than Brees in 2011.

[BillJasper]

I think some of it would come down to how much worse tackling is today. Anyone know what YAC looks like today vs. 1984?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

Marino was slightly further under the league average in 1984 than Brees in 2011.

But isn't INT% based on the number of attempts a QB makes?

[larrymcg421]

Pro-football-reference has era adjusted ratings much like OPS+ and ERA+. Here's how Marino and Brees compare:

Marino

Y/A: 140
Comp%: 127
TD%: 148
INT%: 115
QBRate: 141

Brees

Y/A: 121
Comp%: 136
TD%: 126
INT%: 112
QBRate: 130

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

SC_DougFarrar SC_DougFarrar
Talked to coaches/ex-coaches/tape junkies about complexity of modern defenses. Much tougher to throw against them. Narrative not so simple.

And offenses aren't more complex too? I'd also throw in the fact that you have much better physical specimens to throw to. There weren't many Jimmy Grahams at the TE position in 1984. Throw in the fact that you could actually hit the QB in 1984. You could actually hit a WR for going over the middle. You could actually touch a receiver past 5 yards without giving an automatic first down.

It was much harder to drop back that many times back then and survive a season. And Marino didn't get to play 11 games in the comfort of a dome either with no wind, rain, or snow.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But isn't INT% based on the number of attempts a QB makes?

Yeah, but it's easier across-the-board in 2011 to avoid interceptions. At least in part because any slight twitch by a DB today is a penalty and automatic first down.

Nevertheless, I don't believe it's accurate to say Marino's '84 season was much more impressive than Brees' 2011. Though the YAC question is interesting.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And offenses aren't more complex too? I'd also throw in the fact that you have much better physical specimens to throw to. There weren't many Jimmy Grahams at the TE position in 1984. Throw in the fact that you could actually hit the QB in 1984. You could actually hit a WR for going over the middle. You could actually touch a receiver past 5 yards without giving an automatic first down.

It was much harder to drop back that many times back then and survive a season. And Marino didn't get to play 11 games in the comfort of a dome either with no wind, rain, or snow.

In other words it is crazy to try to compare players from different eras of the NFL.

[stevew]

At least Marino has his Super Bowl rings to hold onto, now that his record has fallen

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by stevew

At least Marino has his Super Bowl rings to hold onto, now that his record has fallen

Well, I imagine those piles of money are all the real comfort he needs.

[jbergey22]

Not that it really matters as Brees would have broken the record in the 1st quarter of next weeks game but I would have preferred if he had done it within normal "game flow" rather than having him pass the ball around like they did when they were up big with 3 minutes left.

It would have been more understandable if it had been week 17.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In other words it is crazy to try to compare players from different eras of the NFL.

Probably. I think we can have fun guessing how a particular player would have fared in a different era though. I just think the hoopla over this is kind of silly considering how one dimensional the rules have made the league. Might as well throw in Arena Football stats too.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And Marino didn't get to play 11 games in the comfort of a dome either with no wind, rain, or snow.

Yeah, that snowfall in Miami really screwed Marino.

[larrymcg421]

The easiest way to say it isn't as impressive is that he did it in 58 more pass attempts. When Marino broke Fouts record, he did it in 45 fewer pass attempts (actually, it is even more than that as that only counts his final number of attempts and not the number he had when he broke it.)

But I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Brees. He deserves the record. It's a great accomplishment. I just think the argument that complex defenses make things just as hard as they were 27 years ago is ludicrous.

[Doug5984]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Again.. how did the Rams beat New Orleans?

I can see Coach Spagnuolo calling the owner now.. "You do know we beat that team?".

Injuries to the O-line that game, and I think Coach Peyton being hurt played a lot bigger role than people want to think. The team just looked off 2 of those 3 weeks- the game it happened in Tampa (2nd half he was in the locker room), destroyed Indy but I could've called plays and been the HC for that one. Then in St Louis, he was still up in the coaches booth, the offense / play calling was very off. He also wasn't there to stare down / curse out the players as they came off the field after bad plays.

Those 2 games are coming back to haunt us right now.

Also, in regards to the record- just like all long standing records you can't compare the eras. You just have to accept that they are both great players and accomplished something special. It isn't all that easy to do in today's NFL since it has stood since '84, and Brees is the only other player to hit 5k yards (besides Brady this coming week). Brees is an amazing QB, as was Marino. Brees now holds the record, his record will fall on day, to another great QB.

Another record that may fall (i think) is the greatest show on turf yardage record.

[RainMaker]

I think in a few years we'll see multiple 5,000 yard passers on a consistent basis.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The easiest way to say it isn't as impressive is that he did it in 58 more pass attempts. When Marino broke Fouts record, he did it in 45 fewer pass attempts (actually, it is even more than that as that only counts his final number of attempts and not the number he had when he broke it.)

But I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Brees. He deserves the record. It's a great accomplishment. I just think the argument that complex defenses make things just as hard as they were 27 years ago is ludicrous.

Marino didnt have the impressive players surrouding him that Brees had either. Marino had to pass for all of them yards so they could win games. As good as Brees is many times the Saints are rushing the ball at will on teams when they decide that passing is more fun so they go chuck the ball around more.

Good for Brees though. A true class act in the NFL and a player that proved a lot of doubters wrong in many ways.

[Pumpy Tudors]

You know, there may be something to Brees breaking the record besides using it as a justification for the damned "you can't play defense in the NFL anymore" argument. I mean, maybe (just maybe) it has something to do with:

• Brees just possibly playing better this year than Marino did in 1984
• Brees having 58 more attempts in 15 games than Marino had in 16 games
• The Saints averaging nearly a full yard per carry more than the Dolphins did, which could open up the passing game even more
• Brees having more than two receivers worth anything
• The Saints offense has been built for the past several years to throw the football

It's possible that maybe Brees and the Saints actually earned this instead of Roger Goodell handing it to them by making offense too easy or defense too hard. I'm not saying everyone has to like the rules that are out there right now, but the rules did not make Drew Brees have the season he'd had. This ain't the time to push that agenda.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

You know, there may be something to Brees breaking the record besides using it as a justification for the damned "you can't play defense in the NFL anymore" argument. I mean, maybe (just maybe) it has something to do with:

• Brees just possibly playing better this year than Marino did in 1984
• Brees having 58 more attempts in 15 games than Marino had in 16 games
• The Saints averaging nearly a full yard per carry more than the Dolphins did, which could open up the passing game even more
• Brees having more than two receivers worth anything
• The Saints offense has been built for the past several years to throw the football

It's possible that maybe Brees and the Saints actually earned this instead of Roger Goodell handing it to them by making offense too easy or defense too hard. I'm not saying everyone has to like the rules that are out there right now, but the rules did not make Drew Brees have the season he'd had. This ain't the time to push that agenda.

What agenda are you talking about? Rules have made it easier for passing offenses to flourish. It's absurd to argue otherwise. Acknowledging that doesn't mean Brees didn't earn it, just like acknowledging the many other advantages Brees had (as you noted in your post) doesn't take anything away from his accomplishment. What's funny is I think the arguments in your own post make Brees look worse than discussing rules adjustments does.

[Matthean]

I'll just leave this here.

[gstelmack]

If the rules had made passing so much easier than back then, why did it take this long to break the record? Yes, average passing is up, but it's still hard to have a GREAT passing year. Even Brady in 2007 couldn't hit this record, although he's still got a shot to hit it next week...

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What agenda are you talking about? Rules have made it easier for passing offenses to flourish. It's absurd to argue otherwise. Acknowledging that doesn't mean Brees didn't earn it, just like acknowledging the many other advantages Brees had (as you noted in your post) doesn't take anything away from his accomplishment. What's funny is I think the arguments in your own post make Brees look worse than discussing rules adjustments does.

My argument isn't that Brees is necessarily better than Marino was. I mean, perhaps he has been, but that's just a maybe. My argument is that there are many other things that have given Brees an advantage.

The agenda I'm talking about is that people are (and will be) using Brees' record as a way to say that "you can't play defense anymore." Of course, every time that agenda gets brought up, it comes down to people wanting defenders to tackle with their helmets, quarterbacks to get their heads and knees destroyed, and receivers to get jacked up while they're making a catch. I see the arguments coming a mile away. For the next howevermany years, people will say that Brees didn't earn it, and that's the part that I find ridiculous. If you're not suggesting that Brees didn't earn it, my guns really aren't pointed at you.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

If the rules had made passing so much easier than back then, why did it take this long to break the record? Yes, average passing is up, but it's still hard to have a GREAT passing year. Even Brady in 2007 couldn't hit this record, although he's still got a shot to hit it next week...

Seems like you're making a good argument why the record is impressive in the first place instead of refuting the argument that passing is easier.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Doug5984

Brees now holds the record, his record will fall one day, to another great QB.

Damn, I would love to see that "one day" be next week. It's unlikely, but possible, if Brees rests any and the Pats end up in a shootout. Of course, the fact that the Saints still have a bye to play for should keep him in the game enough to secure the record.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The agenda I'm talking about is that people are (and will be) using Brees' record as a way to say that "you can't play defense anymore." Of course, every time that agenda gets brought up, it comes down to people wanting defenders to tackle with their helmets, quarterbacks to get their heads and knees destroyed, and receivers to get jacked up while they're making a catch. I see the arguments coming a mile away. For the next howevermany years, people will say that Brees didn't earn it, and that's the part that I find ridiculous. If you're not suggesting that Brees didn't earn it, my guns really aren't pointed at you.

The player safety argument is ridiculous as long as the NFL continues to pursue areas of the sport that would increase injuries. It's about marketability. Protecting the pretty white QB while saying everyone else is fair game. Running the ball up the middle and having a defense shut down a team isn't as much fun for a casual fan as watching an Arena Football game masked as the NFL. I don't mind if that's what people want, I just think the player safety argument is disengenuous coming from the league.

And if you don't want your quarterback getting "jacked up", leave some guys in to block. Don't throw the ball 55 times. Don't send a receiver over the middle and have a quarterback lead him into a 250 pound linebacker. Teams/coaches want no responsibility in protecting players anymore which is wrong.

Brees earned the record, I don't take anything away from that. I just don't think the record means much from a historical perspective. I'd say the same thing about scoring after the 24 second clock was added to basketball or even the homerun record in baseball when you have eras where black players couldn't play in the league and steroid use in it in this era. They are different games with different rules which makes it hard to really compare two players competing for a single record.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

If the rules had made passing so much easier than back then, why did it take this long to break the record? Yes, average passing is up, but it's still hard to have a GREAT passing year. Even Brady in 2007 couldn't hit this record, although he's still got a shot to hit it next week...

The rules have only recently started to change heavily toward the passing game and it's taken teams years to adjust to that. What is a great passing year now though? 4000 yards used to be a benchmark, but we'll see 10 guys (including a rookie) do it this year.

I guess I don't think this is an abberation. I think we'll see guys hover around that 5000 yard mark on a regular basis. And more and more passing as teams realize that running the ball and defense just doesn't create the chance of success that it used to.

[Ksyrup]

Week and a half too late, IMO.

MileHighReport MileHighReport
Denver Broncos Waive Receiver/Returner Quan Crosby

[Pumpy Tudors]

FUCK YOU BILL COSBY

[Ksyrup]

He has hands made of pudding pops.

[Suicane75]

That sounds quite delicious.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

That sounds quite delicious.

this is the nfl thread not the fetish thread thx

[sabotai]

I wonder how much people blamed rules changes for Fouts' and Marino's passing yards records in the early '80s. Did people go around saying "Fouts and Marino are helped by rule changes, so their records are not as impressive as Namath's."

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

He has hands made of pudding pops.

"Hold Me"

"I Can't"

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

He has hands made of pudding pops.

Kids say the darnedest things.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I wonder how much people blamed rules changes for Fouts' and Marino's passing yards records in the early '80s. Did people go around saying "Fouts and Marino are helped by rule changes, so their records are not as impressive as Namath's."

Oh, I'm sure it happened just as much. The only difference is that the audience was smaller. Today, people can use the internet to get the blame message out there. Thirty years ago, the message was confined to restrooms and subway stations where nobody was really paying attention.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I wonder how much people blamed rules changes for Fouts' and Marino's passing yards records in the early '80s. Did people go around saying "Fouts and Marino are helped by rule changes, so their records are not as impressive as Namath's."

I think most people were so doped up around that time they probably didn't care.