MLS has bypassed the NBA as the 3rd most attended sports league in the US

[Big Fo]

If MLS insists on having over half the teams make the playoffs, I think they need to do more to reward higher seed. I'd like to see teams play two legs in each round before the final (maybe not the new wild card round if that sticks) and if there is a tie, the higher seeded team advances.

I've read that next year MLS is considering letting the higher seeded team in the final host the match instead of using a predetermined stadium. That would also be good.

Part of the reason I don't watch more regular season MLS games is that the games have even less meaning than NBA or NHL regular season games in terms of percentage of the league's teams making the playoffs and the importance of high seeding in the playoffs.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

It's how soccer is played worldwide. Aggregate goals isn't that weird. MLS playoffs are poorly structure, but aggregate goals itself isn't a big problem. Even a casual fan like you picked it up. You might think it's dumb, but...you figured it out without cliff notes.

The issue isn't understanding what the rule does, but why it is used. Nonsensical and stupid is more the issue for your average US sports fan, I imagine. The fact that it's commonplace around the world just underscores the fact that, to succeed here, soccer people need to think about these things differently.

[Bisbo]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I don't get why it's so important to soccer fans that everybody love their sport. It doesn't matter if it's the 4th favorite or 10th favorite sport in the country if you love it.

Bottom line ... who cares? I have nothing against soccer, other than all the people trying to convince me soccer is the most awesome thing in the world.

I think it is, in part, a reaction to lots of sportscasters deriding (or ignoring) soccer in their sports reporting.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The issue isn't understanding what the rule does, but why it is used. Nonsensical and stupid is more the issue for your average US sports fan, I imagine. The fact that it's commonplace around the world just underscores the fact that, to succeed here, soccer people need to think about these things differently.

When MLS started they tried to Americanize things a little bit by having the clock count down instead of up and used shootouts (and not a penalty kick shootout, but one from 35 yards where players could dribble up, kind of like hockey) to break any ties. All it really did was annoy people who were already fans of the sport. Thankfully they gave this up after a few years.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

When MLS started they tried to Americanize things a little bit by having the clock count down instead of up and used shootouts (and not a penalty kick shootout, but one from 35 yards where players could dribble up, kind of like hockey) to break any ties. All it really did was annoy people who were already fans of the sport. Thankfully they gave this up after a few years.

That's about par for the course. The fans you *could* win over by making it more "American" are mixed in with all the people who wouldn't watch your sport if they were paid and you end up upsetting the people who pay your salaries anyway, and every sport outside of MLB/NFL/NBA ends up doing it.

Like NASCAR's "sprint for the cup" or whatever it's called. "It's more like a playoff! Late races mean more." Personally speaking, nothing is ever going to make me want to watch NASCAR, so it's a lost cause to me and I'm sure there's some huge racing fan somewhere who thinks it's the damn foolest thing they've ever come up with.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The issue isn't understanding what the rule does, but why it is used. Nonsensical and stupid is more the issue for your average US sports fan, I imagine. The fact that it's commonplace around the world just underscores the fact that, to succeed here, soccer people need to think about these things differently.

Basically you're just saying the rest of the world is nonsensical and stupid.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Basically you're just saying the rest of the world is nonsensical and stupid.

Hi, we're Americans. Have we met?

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Aggregate Goals actually tend to make more sense than "lets play one elimination game, like that will determine who is the better team".

[Wolfpack]

There was a time when MLS did actually do three-game aggregate point series back around 2000 or so, except for the MLS Cup. So, the playoffs at one time were more "American" than they are now, which I agree is a bit on the silly side. Personally, I think they should shorten up the regular season and then do aggregates in the Cup semis (currently conference finals). They also need to shorten the regular season because MLS teams are killing themselves with all the cross-continent travel for MLS, US Open Cup, and (for the lucky few) CONCACAF Champions League (for example, Seattle had to play a home friendly against Man U, then travel to Panama, then to Houston, then back to Seattle, then out to KC, all in two weeks this year...Europeans just don't have this kind of travel burden).

[Young Drachma]

MLS commish: D.C. United relocation is possible - ESPN

Apparently the rent at RFK is too high. Considering a move to Baltimore or somewhere in the area, if that fails...other cities. Any MLS insider thoughts?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Basically you're just saying the rest of the world is nonsensical and stupid.

I think it says more about the sport and why it will never connect with Americans that the idea of playing a series of games that comes down to adding up all the goals to determine a winner of a series ISN'T considered nonsensical, but the norm.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Aggregate Goals actually tend to make more sense than "lets play one elimination game, like that will determine who is the better team".

It's a playoff, that's the entire point. You had the regular season to play a bunch of games to prove you were better for a season. The playoffs don't determine who's better, they determine a winner.

If you're going to aggregate goals, then just play 1 game. If you're going to play a series of games, then the winner of the series should be the team that wins the most games. I don't see how that isn't the default position.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's a playoff, that's the entire point. You had the regular season to play a bunch of games to prove you were better for a season. The playoffs don't determine who's better, they determine a winner.

If you're going to aggregate goals, then just play 1 game. If you're going to play a series of games, then the winner of the series should be the team that wins the most games. I don't see how that isn't the default position.

If the playoffs are just to determine a winner, then what's the problem with two games to determine who is better? If one acknowledges home field advantage, then in the absense of a neutral field, it makes sense to have a home and home and tally up the goals.

This whole it should only be one game smacks of "this is way we've always done it".

The difference comes down, IMO, the idea in the US that "games" and "wins" are sacrosant. Whereas in world soccer, you get points for your result and a tie will get you some points (well, usually just 1).

[Ksyrup]

I don't understand any sport that plays a game, not to win. I think that's the bottom line. It's not, "that's the way we've always done it," it's, "this makes total and complete sense, and playing separate and discrete games but counting all the goals/runs/points scored in all the games together makes no sense." I just can't wrap my mind around how that makes any sense.

Even in hockey, I understand points for wins and even the convoluted OT loss point system. But at the end of the day, their playoff system is about absolute wins and losses, as it should be.

[ISiddiqui]

So just social conditioning then .

Due to the nature of the game, soccer has always placed more reward on a tie than American sports. That drives, seemingly, everything else as well.

[Ksyrup]

And my perception has always been that they have to place such an emphasis on the tie because no one scores - which, IMO, is a major problem with the sport. Not that they don't score a lot, but that they score so infrequently that all these rules about ties and aggregate scoring have to implemented. You don't think the rest of the world would decide things on simple wins and losses if the game had more frequent scoring?

It's not like they came up with these decidedly better rules first, and then fit the game around them. The rules are necessary because of the design/structure of the game. And that's an issue, at least in the US. if you have to come up with an alternative way to decide a winner rather than who wins a game or series of games outright...that's a problem.

[Ksyrup]

And let me just say that I've played adult league soccer for the last 5 years, and I enjoy it for the conditioning and because the quality of soccer we play, lack of scoring and ties is rarely, if ever, an issue.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And my perception has always been that they have to place such an emphasis on the tie because no one scores - which, IMO, is a major problem with the sport. Not that they don't score a lot, but that they score so infrequently that all these rules about ties and aggregate scoring have to implemented. You don't think the rest of the world would decide things on simple wins and losses if the game had more frequent scoring?

It's not like they came up with these decidedly better rules first, and then fit the game around them. The rules are necessary because of the design/structure of the game. And that's an issue, at least in the US. if you have to come up with an alternative way to decide a winner rather than who wins a game or series of games outright...that's a problem.

So, basically, the issue isn't with the system, but the sport itself. The lack of scoring is seen by many as a feature, not a bug (just as the insane amount of scoring in basketball is seen as a feature by its fans).

[Ksyrup]

The issue is the system, but it's predicated on a flaw with the game. I understand some/most people don't consider it a flaw, but when you can't score enough to determine who wins each game that's played, that's a flaw in a league/championship setting. In a vaccuum, I couldn't care less if two teams wanted to play to a draw. When the entire purpose is to determine a winner of a tournament or league, that's a totally different issue. At least, when you get to the playoffs, do what hockey does - continuing playing by the same rules you use during a regular season game until someone wins.

I know we'll never change each other's mind. I was just pointing out that I actually watched some of one of the games, and the way they figured who advanced in the playoffs turned me off. I don't really care what the rest of the world does - they also think national team games mean more than league games, so it's hard for me to understand them anyway.

[ISiddiqui]

Interesting, Hockey did use aggregate goals in its playoffs until 1937.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

they also think national team games mean more than league games, so it's hard for me to understand them anyway.

Um, not exactly. I had this mistaken notion as well, but I think it had more to do with my American mindset regarding nationalism than the actual reality. It took me a while to realize that people care more about their league teams than the national team (well, aside from the World Cup - but that's during the offseason anyways).

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interesting, Hockey did use aggregate goals in its playoffs until 1937.

So soccer's only 75 years behind, then.

[ISiddiqui]

It's like college football - it values tradition .

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Um, not exactly. I had this mistaken notion as well, but I think it had more to do with my American mindset regarding nationalism than the actual reality. It took me a while to realize that people care more about their league teams than the national team (well, aside from the World Cup - but that's during the offseason anyways).

I'm just basing that off of what I see with the WC, as well as a South African guy who I work with. All he talks about is country on country (be it soccer, rugby, cricket, etc.), and is the first to mention the nationality of a tennis player or golfer or race car driver. I honestly don't pay any attention to that nonsense.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's like college football - it values tradition .

Yeah, but in soccer, "plus one" is the way of breaking a tie in the aggregate by awarding an extra point to the team that had the fewest combined red and yellow cards.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's like college football - it values tradition .

And paying players gobs of money?

SI

[Pumpy Tudors]

I wish all sports except baseball had ties. That includes tennis, golf, and bull riding.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't understand any sport that plays a game, not to win. I think that's the bottom line. It's not, "that's the way we've always done it," it's, "this makes total and complete sense, and playing separate and discrete games but counting all the goals/runs/points scored in all the games together makes no sense." I just can't wrap my mind around how that makes any sense.

Even in hockey, I understand points for wins and even the convoluted OT loss point system. But at the end of the day, their playoff system is about absolute wins and losses, as it should be.

Hrmm...


NFL TIE-BREAKER RULES

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

Two Clubs

Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in common games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss
Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in common games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss

[Ksyrup]

We've already discussed that.

First, those tie-breakers have nothing to do with how you win a game. Tie-breakers for standings is a completely different issue. You really think it's practical to have a one-game playoff beofre the playoffs to "finally" determine a division winner?

Second...look how far down each list your highlighted items are. WAY the heck down there.

But the bottom line is, we're talking about determining the winner of a game/series, not who is ranked ahead of who for determining who qualifies for the playoffs at the end of the regular season.

[Ksyrup]

I'll just go ahead and say it, Wade...MLS = Apple.

There, are you happy?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

We've already discussed that.

First, those tie-breakers have nothing to do with how you win a game. Tie-breakers for standings is a completely different issue. You really think it's practical to have a one-game playoff beofre the playoffs to "finally" determine a division winner?

Second...look how far down each list your highlighted items are. WAY the heck down there.

But the bottom line is, we're talking about determining the winner of a game/series, not who is ranked ahead of who for determining who qualifies for the playoffs at the end of the regular season.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying. Outside of the "how far down the list it is", how is this different than the MLS?

[Ksyrup]

The MLS is using aggregate scoring to determine the winner of a game/series.

The NFL uses total points scored/allowed to determine ranking in the standings, not who wins or loses a game or playoff series.

[Young Drachma]

From the MLS Commish via SI.com:

SI.com: I don't know if you saw my proposal for how to restructure the MLS postseason, but what do you think of having a group stage in the MLS playoffs?
Garber: (Nods.) We've looked at every possible playoff iteration you could imagine. I read comments from our fans and media pundits, and they think the MLS office is sitting there with their head in the sand or their face in a computer and hasn't looked at every possible playoff format. Because we have. We have a number of objectives that need to be achieved. The format needs to fit in the broader schedule footprint. It needs to take into consideration what we're trying to achieve driving television and attendance revenue, taking into consideration stadium availability, our commitments to the U.S. Open Cup and CONCACAF, trying to take off for the FIFA dates and so many variables that requires us to have a full-time schedule czar and a consultant who works with a variety of computer models and algorithms to feed it in and come out with a format for the regular season and the playoffs that makes the most sense. I think our fans will see we've come up with a format that will work for us in 2012.


Read more: 'It's been a very good year' for MLS - Grant Wahl - SI.com

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I wish all sports except baseball had ties. That includes tennis, golf, and bull riding.

What about curling?