Elemental - War of Magic

[Coffee Warlord]

Didn't see much mention of this, got an email on it, looks kind of interesting. Sort of sounds like a cross between Civ & Heroes, with some Crusader Kings thrown in. And it's from Stardock, who always tend to put out pretty decent games.

http://elementalgame.com/

[Honolulu_Blue]

There was an old thread discussing this last year and a few other mentions of it.

I pre-ordered this bad boy about a month ago or so. It looks sweet. I am definitely excited.

[Eaglesfan27]

I also preordered and have played the beta a bit. I have high hopes for this game.

[Fidatelo]

Looks pretty awesome!

[path12]

I've stayed away from all the beta stuff but I know the original thought behind this was to be a successor to MoM.

Preordered as well.

[Galaril]

This was one I have been following for a while and it has gone from being a definite purchase to wait and see. It is lloking more like a Age of Wonders type of game where my party of five with a summoned spider fight your bear and three skeletons as opposed to feeling like the leader of an empire with armies.It is more like an Role Playing TBS. Here is something I saw ont he forum that has me also doing a wait and read users impressions.

"

Elemental feels like a strange 4x game. Sometimes i wonder.. where is the micro? And the sliders?

You can't raise/lower taxes, or balance your economy/research. You can't tweak your magic research/mana like in MoM (and there was something like that in AoW but i played too much time ago). You barely have to look after the morale of cities. You can't manage workers from your city like in Civ, or focus your city efforts like in GalCiv 2. You can't buy buildings on construction, exchanging gold for time and effort, or buying stuff using long time loans like in GC2. No Governor lists? Rally points? Management screens for your empire? Economic/research treaties? Random events? vote in council?

I wonder if they tried to evade the clusterfuck of the economy of GalCiv 2 and perhaps they cut back too much.

[Galaril]

The game is out and the initial impressions are not good on the various forums. Also, keep in mind the release was just for the folks who beta tested the game.So, these are impressions are being posted predominantly by the fan boy sector of the game.As I feared this one it appears was rushed to beat out CIV V. Brad the developer is getting somewhat defensive and not sure I can blame him but that's what you get I guess for promising more than you can deliver. He posted this gem a while ago over on Quarter to Three board and is likely why I won't by this one or any more games from Stardock.
"

saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games.

[Honolulu_Blue]

That's disappointing new. I already "own" it, since I pre-ordered it, but maybe I will hold off firing it up until things are patched up. I don't really mind. Thanks to Steam's ridiculous sales I have about a dozen pretty solid games sitting on my hard drive that I've never even launched.

[Shepp]

I bought it this morning and have been playing for the better part of the afternoon. I am having a hard time seeing why it is getting slammed so hard. My only real complaint is that the documentation didn't really exaplain some of the quirks in the interface and there really wasn't a tutorial to speak of.

[Schmidty]

Meh. Sounds like a bunch of fanboys panicking about a late beta game, without actually seeing the finished project. There's going to be a release patch tomorrow from what I understand. I still plan on buying it soon anyway.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

I would like to play the version that's out right now, but apparantly you have to pre-order according to an email I got. I wonder if I go to Gamestop and pre-order there, if I can still play the preview.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Dola.

I would like to play the version that's out right now, but apparantly you have to pre-order according to an email I got. I wonder if I go to Gamestop and pre-order there, if I can still play the preview.

I purchased and downloaded the game this morning through Impulse without preordering.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Galaril

The game is out and the initial impressions are not good on the various forums. Also, keep in mind the release was just for the folks who beta tested the game.So, these are impressions are being posted predominantly by the fan boy sector of the game.As I feared this one it appears was rushed to beat out CIV V. Brad the developer is getting somewhat defensive and not sure I can blame him but that's what you get I guess for promising more than you can deliver. He posted this gem a while ago over on Quarter to Three board and is likely why I won't by this one or any more games from Stardock.
"

Personally I like Brad even more.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Personally I like Brad even more.

I don't know the guy from adam but my $50-70 will stay in my pocket on this one.

[Greyroofoo]

Any opinions on this game?

[Apathetic Lurker]

I might be inclined to part with some cash once it hits that bargain bin

[Blackadar]

PC Gamer chimes in with a "do not buy" warning.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/25/el...tay-well-away/

[Capital]

Just read that "review"...wow. Talk about marketing...

[Honolulu_Blue]

As I noted above, I pre-ordered this game, but I haven’t gotten around to downloading/installing it and wont for a while.

I still have a good half dozen or so games sitting in my Steam folder that haven’t even been played: BioShock, BioShock II, Dawn of War II are just some of those games. Add my on-going FM 2010 dynasty and that’s enough gaming to tide me over for a long time. However, in a few months’ time “Elemental” will be competing with “Civ V” and “Fallout: New Vegas”.

I am comfortable with the idea of a game needing to be patched post-release. Even patched mutltiple time to fix minor bugs or issues. But to release a game in this condition is really appalling. I am an attorney. I don’t make games or publish them and even I know well enough that releasing a game in this condition is not a good or even acceptable business plan.

It’s sort of the equivalent of, say, signing Wade Redden to long term, super expensive deal. I’m not a NHL GM, but I knew that was stupid before it happened.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Personally I like Brad even more.

I guess I was not the only one put off by that comment:

From the comments of "non fanboys"

I will do just as he suggests and I hope a lot of other people do too … shocking way to handle “justified” criticism.

Man, Stardock’s CEO attitude is as deplorable as the state of his games at release.

I was really looking forward for this game but now I’m glad I didn’t buy it. I think I’ll wait some months before looking at this game again. I can see a lot of review sites coming down hard on the game as well.

“please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don’t buy our games.”

I don’t think I will. Damn, what a shoddy attitude.

Since we had no idea the CEO has such ridiculously low standards for release, the only fair thing to do is completely refund everyone’s money who doesn’t feel the game is ready for release.

Perhaps they could include a statement somewhere: “Our CEO feels that a game that crashes every 10 minutes on a preponderance of platforms is ready for release. If you don’t agree, please don’t purchase our games.”

“please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don’t buy our games.”.

I think some one needs to get a new job with that kinda of attitude. I was going to buy this but i dont think i will now brad.

I loved Stardock’s stance on DRM, and happily bought Sins of a Solar Empire and both expansion packs just to support them. Between Demigod and Elemental, they’ve now lost me.

“Don’t buy our games”, eh? No problem. I won’t.

I was really looking forward to this game. It sounded awesome from the moment I first saw it. But this? If they’re throwing that kind of attitude around, I can pass. I have plenty of other games to occupy my time, and I won’t miss it one bit if I completely overlook this one.

Nice job, Stardock. You just lost one customer. And probably more, because I’m telling all my friends to pass on your games from now on.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I guess I was not the only one put off by that comment:

From the comments of "non fanboys"

I am not surprised. His comment and attitude are really quite shocking. I remember way back when this title was first being mentioned, someone here commented on just how obnoxious this guy was and how his posts on forums and what not really turned them off Stardock games. I forget who it was exactly.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I am not surprised. His comment and attitude are really quite shocking. I remember way back when this title was first being mentioned, someone here commented on just how obnoxious this guy was and how his posts on forums and what not really turned them off Stardock games. I forget who it was exactly.

Yeah the guy is aiming for Derek Smart greatness I guess.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah the guy is aiming for Derek Smart greatness I guess.

Looking back at his initial response and then reading just how bad this release is, all I have to say is: Really, dude? That's your response? That's how you feel about releasing a game that is essentially unplayable?

This isn't the time to be ego-driven and all high and mighty. You tuck your tail between your legs, eat a bunch of humble pie, prostrate yourself in front of your fans and customers and promise to fix this shit as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

What, did this guy graduate from BP's Executive Public Relations program or something?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Looking back at his initial response and then reading just how bad this release is, all I have to say is: Really, dude? That's your response? That's how you feel about releasing a game that is essentially unplayable?

This isn't the time to be ego-driven and all high and mighty. You tuck your tail between your legs, eat a bunch of humble pie, prostrate yourself in front of your fans and customers and promise to fix this shit as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

What, did this guy graduate from BP's Executive Public Relations program or something?

Lol.

[Galaril]

Also, he went ahead and semi-bragged a few weeks back that the game already had broke even on preorders and after that it is all gravy so this is doubly shitty.

[Mustang]

In the end, my game purchases are determined by what looks fun to myself and reviews. I don't plan on spooning with any programmer while playing their game, so developer attitude is a very small piece. However, that is just me and I'm guessing I'm probably in the minority so, pretty poor business sense to be a assbag in public.

Shame though, game sounded interesting and appears that it doesn't deliver right away.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Mustang

In the end, my game purchases are determined by what looks fun to myself and reviews. I don't plan on spooning with any programmer while playing their game, so developer attitude is a very small piece. However, that is just me and I'm guessing I'm probably in the minority so, pretty poor business sense to be a assbag in public.

Shame though, game sounded interesting and appears that it doesn't deliver right away.

I totally agree with you.

This guy's behavior will no way influence whether I play the game or not. Maybe if a guy who made games used his profits to kill puppies or something, I may not be inclined to give him my cash, but if the guy's just a jerk, an asshole or immature or whatever, but the game is great, all I really care about is the latter.

I think that would be the prevailing opinion.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Mustang

In the end, my game purchases are determined by what looks fun to myself and reviews. I don't plan on spooning with any programmer while playing their game, so developer attitude is a very small piece. However, that is just me and I'm guessing I'm probably in the minority so, pretty poor business sense to be a assbag in public.

Shame though, game sounded interesting and appears that it doesn't deliver right away.

It's not just that he sounds like a jerk, he also gives the impression that many bugs will not be fixed, which is kind of a big deal.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

It's not just that he sounds like a jerk, he also gives the impression that many bugs will not be fixed, which is kind of a big deal.

Ding yup.

[Peregrine]

I have to say I was really looking forward to this game, now it seems to have become a complete nightmare of a game released way, way too early.

[SirFozzie]

The game's designer is a mystery wrapped in a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

He was the creator of the "Gamer's Bill of Rights". And he sticks to it. If you don't like a game, just email him and he will refund your money.

However, from his interactions at Quarter to Three.. he's that forums Jon (Jon, no offense). His politics are roughly equal. His inter-personal skills could use the rough edges being sanded off.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Ding yup.

Regardless of jerkiness, Stardock has always seemed to fix and maintain their games very, very well. So ding nope.

Like someone said above, he can call me names, tell me I'm dumb, insult my momma, but if the game ends up being good, I'll buy it and play it. I guess I'm not as sensitive as most.

Also, they released a day 0 patch yesterday, which I think fixed some of the bugs that the PC Gamer reviewer found. I'm still buying it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Regardless of jerkiness, Stardock has always seemed to fix and maintain their games very, very well. So ding nope.

Like someone said above, he can call me names, tell me I'm dumb, insult my momma, but if the game ends up being good, I'll buy it and play it. I guess I'm not as sensitive as most.

Also, they released a day 0 patch yesterday, which I think fixed some of the bugs that the PC Gamer reviewer found. I'm still buying it.

Ding yup, for the Schmidster...

Here’s more from Wardell on the Q23 forums trimmed for length.

"The general feedback we’re seeing is very positive. We’re happy with the game. We like the game. I don’t like seeing reports of crashing, and that is our top priority… I also wince at seeing unpolished parts that were in there.

We’re going to be working on Elemental for the next couple of years. Stardock has no new internally developed games in the works other than Elemental updates and expansions and so on.

I realize that we live in a world where Elemental is up against games like Starcraft II and Civ V. It’s hard to make a brand new game with a brand new engine for the PC these days. It’s expensive and it’s time consuming. We don’t have (nor ever will) have the kind of budget to create the level of polished gameplay that you have in a Starcraft 2 or a Civ V. We can only start to approach it over a long period of time (i.e. GalCiv II … Dark Avatar … Twilight of the Arnor).
[...]

Now, all that said, this is the best game we’ve ever made. I said it earlier in this thread and I believe even those in this thread who have played the game will generally agree that this game is better than anything we’ve made before. It needs more polishing, tweaking, and fixing to be sure but as a game, we’ve never made anything nearly this good."

Here's another follow up and explanation regarding that quote and this whole issue:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/392474

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Regardless of jerkiness, Stardock has always seemed to fix and maintain their games very, very well. So ding nope.

Like someone said above, he can call me names, tell me I'm dumb, insult my momma, but if the game ends up being good, I'll buy it and play it. I guess I'm not as sensitive as most.

Also, they released a day 0 patch yesterday, which I think fixed some of the bugs that the PC Gamer reviewer found. I'm still buying it.

Hey be my guest cough up the 50 bucks not me my friend.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Ding yup, for the Schmidster...

Here’s more from Wardell on the Q23 forums trimmed for length.

"The general feedback we’re seeing is very positive. We’re happy with the game. We like the game. I don’t like seeing reports of crashing, and that is our top priority… I also wince at seeing unpolished parts that were in there.

We’re going to be working on Elemental for the next couple of years. Stardock has no new internally developed games in the works other than Elemental updates and expansions and so on.

I realize that we live in a world where Elemental is up against games like Starcraft II and Civ V. It’s hard to make a brand new game with a brand new engine for the PC these days. It’s expensive and it’s time consuming. We don’t have (nor ever will) have the kind of budget to create the level of polished gameplay that you have in a Starcraft 2 or a Civ V. We can only start to approach it over a long period of time (i.e. GalCiv II … Dark Avatar … Twilight of the Arnor).
[...]

Now, all that said, this is the best game we’ve ever made. I said it earlier in this thread and I believe even those in this thread who have played the game will generally agree that this game is better than anything we’ve made before. It needs more polishing, tweaking, and fixing to be sure but as a game, we’ve never made anything nearly this good."

Here's another follow up and explanation regarding that quote and this whole issue:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/392474

Lol what's he going to say as the CEO feedback to the feedback to the patch is not positive? I am going to buy CIV V and come back to this thing when as someone else said it is bargain bin and fully "polished".

[Atocep]

Friend of mine was incredibly excited about this. Played the early release and was incredibly disappointed. Then he got excited reading about the day 0 patch, tried it out, and decided to put the game away for a couple of months. He probably put 15 hours into over 2 days trying to convince himself that it was good and just gave up.

I'll probably give them a month or two to patch and then see if it's gotten better, but I haven't been impressed at all with what I've read and heard about the game in its current state.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Lol what's he going to say as the CEO feedback to the feedback to the patch is not positive? I am going to buy CIV V and come back to this thing when as someone else said it is bargain bin and fully "polished".

+1

I'll look at picking this game up after I've had my fill of Civ V. Which should be some time in late 2011.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

+1

I'll look at picking this game up after I've had my fill of Civ V. Which should be some time in late 2011.

If Civ V is as good as "Civ IV", that would be closer to 2014 for me. Civ IV dominated my PC game playing for a good 4 years.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

If Civ V is as good as "Civ IV", that would be closer to 2014 for me. Civ IV dominated my PC game playing for a good 4 years.

I am behind the times, just getting ready to buy Civ 4. Loved Civ 3 until I found out about the DRM on it, so uninstalled and got rid of it.

I was looking at this Elemental game at the store today, thinking I remembered a thread for it here at FOFC, and am glad I checked this out first, along with some other reviews. I don't really care about the developers personality, although being an asshat is no way to operate a successful business, but if the game sucks, which it appears to, at least right now, I won't be buying it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I fired this game up over the weekend.

I played it for about 3-4 hours.

During that time, it crashed a number of times. None of the crashes were fatal, as the game autosaves frequently, but it happened more often than I'd like.

I started up a new game, deciding to try that instead of kicking off the Campaign, which allows you to replay some past historical events or something. The gist of the game is that the world was torn asunder after a great war between the Titans and the Mancers, people who had access to magic. The land was ruined and sat bare for a many years and now a new group of Mancers have returned to re-build their former kingdoms. We were one such Mancer. You get to pick from one of 10 factions. You get to design the look of your hero and his/her stats. You have 50 points to spend on: 1) boosting your abilities (the standard strength, wisdom, intelligence, dexterity, constutition); 2) getting better access to different schools of magic (life, death, fire, air, earth); 3) Special abilities; and 4) Equipment (armor/weapons). You also get to pick a "profession" that gives you a bonus to certain things. You don't pay for that.

You then start on this new world with the purpose of building your kingdom back to its former glory and beating the other kingdoms. Like Civ, for example, you typically start out in an area that has the resources to start your kingdom. For example, you need some fertile ground (of which there is little) to build a farm to grow food that allows your population to grow. There are other resources like gold, iron, old libraries and the like from which you can mine gold, iron, arcane lore, etc. So, you put your city down near a farm, build workshop which allows you to build a farm and off you go.

In your cities you can either recruit troops or build buildings. Once you gain access to certain building that start to produce arcane points and tech points, you can start researching new techs and magic. The techs, if I recall, are something along the lines of: adventuring, diplomacy, warfare, government, magic, and one or two more. Each tech has a level and each time you reach that level you get some new advancement, like new troops, new/better weapons and armor, access to new buildings, etc. Arcance points allow you to learn new spells and get higher level spells. Your city has a ring of influence, much like Civ, that expands as your city does to get more resources. It is cool that you can modify the basic troops a bit. Our "second level" troops were called Observers. We were able to change what they looked like and give them some better armor. This increased their overall cost, but we were flush with money.

You meet NPCs along the way that can join you. They all have their own stats, like you, and give you a civ bonus. For example, the Bard makes it cheaper to hire new companions, a merchant gives you some trade/money bonus, a mage will give you a bonus to Arcane lore, etc. Other than these bonuses and the fact they get experience in combat, these NPCs seem entirely useless. They can't fight. They can't cast spells unless you case a spell imbuing them with power. They just sort of exist.

The combat in the game is very similar to "Age Of Wonders" or "Hereoes of Might & Magic". It's closer to the former than the later. You move on the big map, when you encounter enemies, you go to a combat screen showing your group and your enemies. Each group starts on one side of the map and has to march forward to fight. Our group consisted of our hero, Boshan McVin, two of our NPCs, a bard and scribe, the Noble's son we met at the inn and were to escort back to his estate, and some peasants we had trained. Through our magic training, we learned "firebolt". So, most combats involved us sitting back, shooting firebolts at our enemies as they charged our group. That weakened them enough so our peasants could take them down. Because we had no real weapon or armor, we were horrible at hand-to-hand.

As the game progresses, there are Outlaws, evil NPCs, who harry your land. There are monsters who wander the realm. You can get quests at inns. You can hire new heroes/NPCs. You build your kingdom up, etc. We never really made it that far.

In my game, I stumbled around a bit, since the instrucion manual, like so many these days, gives little in the way of instruction. I finally founded our city and started to get things going. I had a really hard time moving my guy. For some reason, when I'd click a square, that looked quite open and easily to move to, my guy would either move in the opposite direction or wouldn't move at all. It was baffling. Eventually, I had to teleport my guy into that elusive square (you can cast teleport to go to any square within your realm) and only THEN could I move out of my realm. So, I had a lot of issues with that. In fact, I built a caravan to start a trade rout with a nearby kingdom and I couldn't get our caravan out of my own realm. It just kept moving south when I wanted go north, even though only mountains and the sea were south. It was frustrating.

I also had that quest with the noble. To return him to his estate, which was pretty close by. However, there was some gate/wall right in front of the estate. I couldn't pass it without talking to Queen Porcina or someone. I had no idea who that was or where to find her. So, I couldn't even accomplish my first quest.

Then, a rival kingdom was nearby. This kingdom blocked our ability to move. We couldn't enter his realm without declaring war and couldn't move past his realm without entering it. We were stuck. So, we decided that we had to attack. We gathered the best army we could and moved forward. He had fewer troops, but his troops included two familiars and a earth giant. Our peasants/observers had between 5-7 hit points and did, at best, 2-3 points of damage. Their familiars appeared to have some spell/abilities that did a 10 points of damage area of effect spell that killed almost our entire group with one hit. And that was that.

I tried to fire up a couple of other games, but died pretty quickly each time.

The game has all kinds of issues.

It crashed multiple times while I played it.

The combat is actually worse than, say, "Age of Wonders" which is 10+ years old. The AI seems less advanced, the graphics are no better, the variety of troops seems no better and there seems to be an incredible inbalance of power.

The difficulty we had just moving our own units around was inexcusable. There was no explanation as to why this happened. We would "left click" to move and nothing would happen. Certain tiles just seemed "unclickable" for no reason.

As for the whole diplomacy thing and having children and forming allainces and such. Well, we never even came close to that. We weren't even married, so we had no kids. I don't think we were high enough in diplomacy to really talk.

Another odd thing. We learned "Firebolt" and "Fireball". Same exact spell pretty much. They each cost the same to cast, each hit only one target, the only difference was that fireball did twice as much damage. So, once you learned fireball, firebolt was useless.

I may give this game another chance down the road. Perhaps I could benefit from a strategy guide or some more instruction. I'd like to know why my caravan couldn't move, for example.

Still, the game was very underwhelming. I am not sure even if a fully patched version of the game would be all that great. Maybe.

[RomaGoth]

Thanks for the in-depth review HB. Any chance I had of purchasing this game is gone now.

[Schmidty]

Check out this post from Brad, the CEO:

I'm up north on vacation typing on an extremely slow connection so bear with me)

I don't think people yet fully realize the completeness of Stardock's fail on Elementa's launch.

I'm going to write more about this but not only did we think v1.05 was ready for everyone but we felt v1.0 was too. That's the level of disconnect/poor judgment on our part we're talking about.

If the game had come out in February, it would still have been a disastrous launch because lack of time wasn't the issue. It was blindness, sheer blindness. We felt the game was finished. And I speak of v1.0, not v1.05. Blindness.

There will be massive consequences for Stardock's game studio. I'll be talking more about this when I get back. But the game wasn't released early. The game was released poorly. Head in the sand syndrome imo. I've read the reviews as much as possible given my hideous internet access up here and I agree with them. We just didn't see what they were talking about. We thought any complaints would be about polish points or something.

The point is, the issue here is far far worse than many of you think it is. I wish it was an issue of the game being released too early. That's an easy thing for a company to "fix". Elemental's launch is the result of catastrophic poor judgment on my part.

EVERY competent software developer knows that the programmer must never be the one deciding whether the program is done. Yet, my love of Elemental broke my self discipline and I began coding on the game itself in vast amounts and lost any sense of objectivity on where the game's state was. I normally only program the AI on our games so I can keep a level of distance from the game itself to determine whether it's "Ready". On Elemental, I was in love with the world and the game and lost my impartiality.

We'll do better.

At least he finally admitted to putting out a shitty product.