CM 4 or 01/02...pros/cons of going back

[kserra]

I'd post this over at SIGames, but I'm afraid I'd be burned out of there by some of the posters, and since I mean this as a legitimate and serious question, I was hoping you guys could help me out.

A few notes first...

01/02 made me love soccer...as a typical 20 something Football playing, beer drinking American, that's INCREDIBLE.

01/02 has consumed more of my playing time than any other game other than EU2 during the past three years...no other games are even close to these two...

I KNOW I could go back and get into a 10-15 year game with 01/02 and be completely sucked in, happy, and worth it as my wife gives me dirty looks constantly...

I've been playing CM 4 more with the new EP 5 out, but I am very concerned about the Positioning issue...VERY concerned...

I cannot get into a game if I know that in 3-4 seasons, I'll start noticing major problems in the structure of the game...that takes away from the immerisivness of the game and makes me much less willing to commit the time I do when I really enjoy a game...

So...can you guys help me...I'm creating a small little pro/con list over playing either game. I am in NO WAY an expert on either game, but I do enjoy them and support them. I WISH we had a Baseball or Football game that does Soccer like 01/02 does...

The Case for STAYING with CM 4

--2D game play...I like it, shoot me.
--New media interactions--more chances to make a mess of my team...
--more attributes, players are now more varied so there is no longer a "formula" type player you are looking for..
--It's newer, so it's gotta be better...right? (that concept has driven America's economy since the 50's...)

CONS of staying with CM 4

--Attribute bug...POSITIONING bug is just a total buzz kill
--High system specs...runs fine on my machine with 4 leagues total, but seems limiting to only have 4 available...
--Transfer market is very Bearish in the game...remember, we play games to forget our problems, but when I see the economic problems in CM4 I'm afraid the worlds falling into a massive depression (sorry, I'll quit exaggerating)
--The Unknown...still haven't really gotten familar or comfortable with CM 4 yet...we haven't become friends yet, so it feels slightly disconcerting...
--No PRINT Button...It's a little time consuming to record each players key stats...makes it tough to do roster evaluation when first taking over a new team...


PROS of going back to 01/02

--I KNOW I will love playing the game...
--Comfortable feel
--More leagues (because of system requirements)
--PRINT
--Economic system isn't nearly as punitive
--Bug Free
--Long-term playability is assured

CONS of going back

--I'm lazy, I'd have to reinstall the game (WHY DID I UNINSTALL IT???)
--No 2D engine...not a killer, but it is a cool feature that is a good way to waste an hour or so while watching a meaningless friendly
--Been there, done that...I've already conquered this land...
--Fear of missing out on something really awesome in CM4...Fear that CM4 isn't nearly as broken as some say...


BASICALLY, what I'm getting at is I'm not sure I'm willing to commit my time to see if CM4 is really as buggy as it seems (from people posting). The ATTRIBUTE problem would be a BIG deal to me, but over at SIGAMES forum, a lot of the posters just glaze over it and say it's not a big deal...BS...it sure seems to be one for me...

Anyways...I'm craving some Champ, and I'd like your take on this dilemma. Anyone else face similar problems? Thanks.

Kevin

[Radii]

I've tried on numerous occasions to get into CM4 and it just hasn't happened yet. But I haven't really had the urge to drop back to CM 01/02 yet either, despite having an amazingly successful and immersive career with that game.

I think what I'm planning to do, is see what CM02/03 (or 03/04 or whatever the next offshoot release of CM4 is) looks like, see if it has the print functionality back in, and I will probably purchase it and try to dive in again.

As for you, if you want CM and you want it now and you can live without the 2D, I'd say fire up the old version, and post a dynasty for us

[The Afoci]

I never played 01/02, but the position thing doesn't bother me. I don't know why, but it doesn't. My guys in the 2D never seem to be in the right position, no matter what their positioning is. The bug happens to everyone in the game so no one is at a unfair advantage. I am 5 seasons in and getting some of the drop, but have noticed nothing killer for me at least.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Am I imagining things, or did someone post a way to fix the positioning problem by modifying some .ini file?

I thought I remember someone posting a way to make a fix, but it only applied to new games, not ones currently under way.

No?

[kserra]

Is this true? If so, please post how to do this.

Godzilla, I hope your right, that would be the final straw for me taking Thursday and Friday off...pleasepleaseplease someone confirm this and post directions.

Kevin

[The Afoci]

As far as I know, it isn't true. There was a .ini file for header training.

[kserra]

bummer...well, I'm in the process of downloading the last patch for 01/02...hopefully it will satisfy my need for a quality sports game right now...

[Fonzie]

One other problem with EP5 that is particularly harsh on the Lower League Manager types: it is, so far as I can tell, impossible to expand your stadium. Ever. Under any circumstances. Conference teams have gone into the Premiership with 6000 seaters. Despite having their ultimatums agreed to by the boards. Nothing ever happens.

And SI refuses to fix it (or anything else, like the positioning bug, which is also very concerning). They won't even comment on it over at their EP5 bug forum. Pretty disturbing behavior, if you ask me.

Like you, kserra, I'm very worried about the positioning bug (which I've also heard is true of dribbling). I know that its one of those "level playing field" types of bugs, but it still bothers me greatly. I've heard some went to a very aggressive style of man marking to get around the positioning bug with some success, FWIW.

[Abe Sargent]

EU2 - Yay!!!

Ok, my comments are done.

-Anxiety

[Godzilla Blitz]

I was planning to start a CM4 game until I read about some of the problems in the other thread here. I'm interested to see where this discussion goes.

Originally posted by The Afoci
As far as I know, it isn't true. There was a .ini file for header training.

That must have been it. Sorry if I got anyone's hopes up.

As far as the stadium size is concerned, is it possible to go in an manually edit the stadium size? Would that screw up a game if you do it in the middle of a career? I realize this is partly cheating, but if you set up specific parameters before you start your career as to when you could expand your stadium, would that be a feasible workaround? Also, I realize this is a different situation, but weren't there always upper limits to a stadium's expansion in CM 01/02 anyways?

Is it true that CM4 places more demands on your system? It's hard to tell in CM 01/02, but from just messing a bit with CM4, it appears that I can run about the same number, if not more leagues in CM4, using the same system.

It's too bad that there are these nagging things left in CM4. I realize it is most likely out of Marc's hands, and this is intended as no slight on him--his service to this board and to his customers is beyond oustanding (how many programmers will even offer to try to fix a gamer's corrupt saved game!).

However, it sure seems like SI Games has made a short-sighted decision, and the company is burning through quite a bit of customer goodwill by leaving these problems--whether they are minor or not--with the game. With all due respect, the necessity for the company to "move on" to the next version should not take precedence over providing customers with a game that is up to previous standards of excellence.

The tricky part of the CM4 vs. CM 01/02 decision is that "playing a game" of CM--or any text sim for that matter--is usually a tremendous investment of time. I'm hesitant to start a game when I know that I might get 50 hours into it, really start to get wrapped up in the game world, and then realize that the problems--which some people say are major and others say are insignificant--are in fact significant to me.

[MrBug708]

01/02 is a great game

[Fonzie]

GB - I don't think you can alter the stadium size from within the game, but you can get a 3rd party editor (like MCM4) and change it in your saved game file. That's how some folks over at the SI forums got around this bug, and some went a bit further and added a significant debt load to their team to simulate the cost of stadium construction (!). And as far as I know it doesn't matter at what point your career is.

The thing that absolutely kills me about this particular bug is that it was introduced in EP5. The stadium expansion routine appeared to work at least reasonably in EP4 (so I've read over at the SI forums - I skipped EP4 when I heard EP5 was coming out), but SI allegedly managed to break it in their latest patch. And now they refuse to fix it. If true, that doesn't inspire much confidence from me (not that they really care).

Alas, if I want to play a working version of this game (which I do), I may have to go pick up CM 01/02. That strikes me as odd, to say the least.

[soapbox] And just to clarify this as well as my earlier post - I'm disturbed at SI's attitude regarding the status of CM4, and not Marc's. He's been nothing short of wonderful. I heart Marc. But SI's cavalier attitude toward their paying customers has to stop, or "new market" customers like myself, who know damn near nothing about futbol, will turn from potential repeat customers/fantatics into very-bad-word-of-mouth ex-customers.

Thank you. [/soapbox]

[BreizhManu]

For stadium expansions do it like me : if during the season they accep the stadium expansion, do it yourself at the end of the season using mcm4 with 1000 seats = 1M£

[condors]

kserra-i am managing chelsea in 2022 and i don't have any issue with postioning or attribute bug(i believe there are less good players so being with a small club could be an issue)

i bring in players that are described as "promising" and they are my backups/reserve team players and become my first team regulars although i may get a regular postion player over 90% of my players where promising youth players that i developed

is the game perfect no, but i think its getting a bad rap

[kserra]

The stadium expansion problem is a big one that I forgot about...

Problem with going in and editing this is either you'd only be doing it for your team, or you'd have to go around and monitor every team that needs a new stadium...that's just not going to do it in terms of getting me totally immersed in the world...

condors--I have to be honest, I haven't heard many who've had the experience you've had...lucky you

I agree with the overall feelings towards SI and CM4...

I think it was a tremendous effort to take the game to the next level...but what I can't figure out is that instead of BUILDING upon their previous work (which was amazing), it seems that they have progressed in a few areas but regressed in others...

For a game that was so well played out in 01/02, it's hard for fans to swallow these bugs since we've already had a very polished, believeable game...

Maybe if this was 1997, where our choices for games and our past experiences were limited, we would be thrilled with the product and willing to overlook the problems...

But look at it this way, we probably loved Front Page Football...but if a product were to come out like that now, we'd cry for more because our expectations have been lifted from that series plus the many others since it was released...

CM4 is a victim of its own success, but it's just unacceptable to leave a game in its finished state without providing the necessary fixes that make it a FINISHED product...unless CM4 wants to market itself as a "kinda realistic, somewhat accurate, and moderately flawed rendition of real-life" I think these problems need to be addressed.

Kevin

[McSweeny]

perhaps the 'creative differences' between SI and Eidos are the blame for the lack of any more CM4 patches

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fonzie
[soapbox] And just to clarify this as well as my earlier post - I'm disturbed at SI's attitude regarding the status of CM4, and not Marc's. He's been nothing short of wonderful. I heart Marc. But SI's cavalier attitude toward their paying customers has to stop, or "new market" customers like myself, who know damn near nothing about futbol, will turn from potential repeat customers/fantatics into very-bad-word-of-mouth ex-customers.

Thank you. [/soapbox]

Well said. My first inclination might have been a bit rougher, but I'll be content to join you on "disturbed."

[Fonzie]

Thanks for the kind words, QS.

Originally posted by McSweeny
perhaps the 'creative differences' between SI and Eidos are the blame for the lack of any more CM4 patches

Excellent point. Now that they've publicly stated their intentions to split, it makes one wonder about the nature of their relationship during CM4's production. For instance, was the decision to get CM4 out early (prematurely, IMO) and limit the patching a balanced one between SI and Eidos, or was Eidos behind it all (thus, irritating SI and contributing to the split)? And when SI went into denial about the seriousness of the bugs remaining after EP5, were they being genuine, or were they prohibited from making further comment by Eidos?

Hmmmmm...

[thirdandlong]

I am really considering buying CM4. I really loved the demo. What is the "positioning bug"? Can someone please describe it?

[Fonzie]

The positioning bug (which may affect other attributes as well) results in every player in the game universe experiencing a gradual decline in their positioning ability. This occurs over the course of several years, and while I've not played long enough to see these ratings bottom out, some have said nearly every player in the game hits a rating of "1" within a few decades of play.