WSOP Pool 2009

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

But the funny thing is that Phil Ivey is no where as good for a final table as Esfandiari would be in terms of marketing. Ivey has never been into self-promotion the way a lot of others are, he's simply above that. He gave a long Poker Road interview a while back where he talked about that in depth and how he's just not into that. I wonder if the November 9 thing would change him, but I don't think it would. If you're looking for a face for poker to promote I think The Magician would be a great one.

He's not into it. But Joe Sebok and Barry Greenstein are. And they've done a very impressive job of getting him to open up (even though he admits that he isn't as private as he is perceived).

Yes, Magician can promote it better, because he's known and had a TV show and is generally more well-liked over the past couple of years (my respect for him went way up during the first season of High Stakes Poker, and I actually do enjoy watching him and Phil Laak together).

However, to say that Phil Ivey would not be as good for the FT as the Magician is simply way off. Ivey's got Full Tilt behind him, PokerRoad for the net, and ESPN's love. He's a machine that is becoming an entity that would make Hellmuth pout. Dude's blowing up. And if he makes it...poker will likely go right back up, because of Ivey's celebrity and reputation.

Ivey making the FT is the best thing that could happen for poker right now...players and fans.

[Barkeep49]

I do admit that there is real value in having the percieved best poker player be at the biggest poker event in the world. Having that certainly does help with the idea of poker being skill based.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He's definitely the bigger name, and outside of maybe Hellmuth, the biggest name in all of poker.

And half the people who catch a glimpse of him in a promo will wonder why Tiger Woods is playing poker

More seriously I'd argue that Annie Duke is the actually best known of them today all after her stint on The Apprentice (not necessarily the most marketable, the most likable or the most notable, but the most known name to the average person). I'd personally say Negreanu, Brunson, Raymer, & are at least as big in terms of name value as Ivey (to the general public as well as the casual follower) and that Matusow is even more recognizable.

And for the casuals like me (waaaay below serious fans but waaaaay above, say, my wife or my dad or whomever) there's at least another half dozen I'd put on the same rough plain as Ivey in terms of having an identity. Deeb, Moneymaker, Ferguson, Laak, the 672 different Nguyens, Gus Hansen, Jennifer Tilly all come to mind. I'll admit I scanned over a list of names to come up with a couple of those that didn't come to mind immediately but weighing them against Ivey I feel like they're all very comparable.

Remember now, I'm not talking at all about their poker playing ability, just about people that could be picked out of a lineup as poker players based on either their face or their name.

edit to add: Actually, I'd love to see a Q-Rating sheet on all the big & medium sized names to see how my perception matches reality but I've never seen anything like that mentioned anywhere although I'm sure it's been done & is updated frequently for marketing purposes by the various entities with an interest.

[larrymcg421]

Among regular and casual poker fans, I'd say Ivey, Hellmuth, Matusow, and Hansen would be in the top group, with people like Brunson, Nguyen, Ferguson, and others in the next group.

As for people that barely watch, my guess is Hellmuth is far and away #1 and I don't think anyone else is really close.

.

[Radii]

Negreanu? Actually, how are the ratings for the various poker shows doing? Poker After Dark, WSOP coverage, WPT, and High Stakes Poker(any others big enough to note?). Perception is probably shaped greatly based on which shows are watched most(and I can only speak to high stakes poker since that's the only one I watch).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Radii

Negreanu?

I really threw him in there based on the feeling I have that I see him on TV in a commercial for one of the sites about every five minutes. (his tv spots are even referenced in story from a DC TV station about a Maryland guy winning a bracelet in one of the early events). Plus he did one of the Jay Mohr Diet Pepsi spots a couple of years ago & recently shot a cameo for a Katy Perry video, so yeah, I'd say he's there.

Actually, how are the ratings for the various poker shows doing? Poker After Dark, WSOP coverage, WPT, and High Stakes Poker(any others big enough to note?). Perception is probably shaped greatly based on which shows are watched most(and I can only speak to high stakes poker since that's the only one I watch).

I imagine After Dark is the most watched of the bunch since it occasionally cracks the sports Top 20 most watched for the week & non of the other regular shows do. That's notable since it does a 0.7 to 0.8 average in a lousy ass timeslot. Ratings were up for last year's WSOP coverage, averaging a 1.11 cable rating and peaking around 1.8 or 1.9. I think WPT is the highest rated regular on cable & although I can't find exact numbers it seems to be in the 0.7 range as well.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I really threw him in there based on the feeling I have that I see him on TV in a commercial for one of the sites about every five minutes.

Oops, I missed seeing his name. I was actually questioning how he was left out, but obviously he was not!

[Comey]

Ivey's the only one that, as far as I can tell, gets name-dropped on shows like SportsCenter. He also gets shown on the big screen at Laker games.

Hell, my girlfriend knows who he is, and she doesn't know jack shit about poker. ; )

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Comey

Ivey's the only one that, as far as I can tell, gets name-dropped on shows like SportsCenter. He also gets shown on the big screen at Laker games.

Could explain why I don't have that perception of him. I rarely see SC any more and never go to Laker games

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Radii

Negreanu? Actually, how are the ratings for the various poker shows doing? Poker After Dark, WSOP coverage, WPT, and High Stakes Poker(any others big enough to note?). Perception is probably shaped greatly based on which shows are watched most(and I can only speak to high stakes poker since that's the only one I watch).

I've been watching these probably in this order:

HSP > PaD > WPT > WSOP Coverage

First three off of the DVR, WSOP whenever it's on and nothing else is. So I get a healthy dose of Esfandiari. Has Ivey done HSP? I don't recall him having done it more than briefly, if at all. Whenever he's on PaD he seems like he doesn't want to be there. Definitely could loosen up a bit. Esfandiari might be too loose at times - really, I'm not sure I need much more of betting on when Vanessa Rousso thinks Matusow lost his virginity (actually, that depressed me as much as anything...) - but he generally comes across well. I'm certain Ivey's been on WPT more, but I've been watching that less and less.


Negreanu is everywhere it seems.

I could go for more Sammy Farha.

Wonder the Q-rating on Jamie Gold is.

Surprised more women don't know Patrik Antonius.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Could explain why I don't have that perception of him. I rarely see SC any more and never go to Laker games

Neither do I...but I have seen this. I don't have cable anymore, but I've heard his name dropped repeatedly before I lost cable. They also bring him up on ESPN radio a good bit (mostly Tirico/Van Pelt).

He was supposed to be interviewed on 610 WIP (Philadelphia) a couple of weeks ago, and apparently is a frequent guest. But, on this occasion, he was busy winning a bracelet. The guy couldn't stop gushing about him.

[larrymcg421]

Margets out in 27th. Esfandiari out in 24th.

It's down to Ivey and Shulman for the notables.

[larrymcg421]

Down to 20 players, but Ivey has had a terrible day and is down to $5 million chips.

[larrymcg421]

Ivey won a couple of decent pots and is back up to $7.8 million.

15 left.

[larrymcg421]

Chip counts at the two remaining tables:

Seat 1: Phil Ivey 7,325,000
Seat 2: OPEN
Seat 3: Steven Begleiter 27,260,000
Seat 4: Antoine Saout 12,420,000
Seat 5: James Akenhead 5,090,000
Seat 6: Eric Buchman 28,670,000
Seat 7: Joe Cada 19,465,000
Seat 8: Jamie Robbins 1,340,000
Seat 9: OPEN

Seat 1: Ben Lamb 5,200,000
Seat 2: Kevin Schaffel 10,630,000
Seat 3: Jordan Smith 18,840,000
Seat 4: OPEN
Seat 5: Jeff Shulman 13,800,000
Seat 6: Darvin Moon 23,800,000
Seat 7: James Calderaro 5,000,000
Seat 8: Darvin Kopp 13,500,000
Seat 9: OPEN

[hoopsguy]

Down to 12 players - Ivey has some work to do (around 8.5 million, 10th), Schulman is up to 22 million in chips (4th overall).

[larrymcg421]

Ivey down to $5.9 million.

[hoopsguy]

Huge bustout in 12th - shipping 20 million chips on all-in, drawing dead.

Ivey busts a small stack out in 11th - one more spot to go to final table.

[larrymcg421]

Wow that was a crazy bustout in 12th. You've really got to keep that pot small, especially when the board paired.

[larrymcg421]

They've collapsed to one table of 10. One more elimination until November and here's where they stand:

Seat 1: Darvin Moon (44,300,000)
Seat 2: Jordan Smith (15,430,000)
Seat 3: James Akenhead (5,100,000)
Seat 4: Phil Ivey (10,210,000)
Seat 5: Kevin Schaffel (13,080,000)
Seat 6: Steven Begleiter (26,495,000)
Seat 7: Eric Buchman (36,780,000)
Seat 8: Joe Cada (13,400,000)
Seat 9: Antoine Saout (10,200,000)
Seat 10:Jeff Shulman (17,900,000)

Matusow has $10,000 riding on the next elimination.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Wow that was a crazy bustout in 12th. You've really got to keep that pot small, especially when the board paired.

Was just chatting about this with another FOFC'er:
1.) on the turn check-raise are you suggesting that he fold in that spot with flush? Or call with hopes that opponent has trips, strong flush draw, or air?
2.) if you go to the river and the other player puts your stack at risk do you make a hero fold there?

Looking back on hand, he is probably going to regret getting cute with pre-flop raise and shoving on turn. But which was the biggest mistake?

[hoopsguy]

Dola, hand details courtesy of pokernews.com:

Billy Kopp Eliminated in 12th Place ($896,730)

Wow. That's a succinct description of what just happened on the secondary feature table. Billy Kopp opened for 600,000 preflop from early position and was called by the small blind, Darvin Moon. So far, so good.

On a flop of , Moon had first action and checked. He then called when Kopp bet 750,000. Again, nothing out of the ordinary yet.

It was on the turn where everything went haywire. Moon checked again and drew a bet of 2.0 million from Kopp. Moon then check-raised to 6.0 million. Improbably, Kopp moved all in for about 20.0 million total. Even more improbably, Moon called!

Kopp:
Moon:

Kopp looked like he wanted to cry when he saw Moon's hand. He knew that he was drawing dead and that Moon had him covered. Kopp had more than 80 big blinds to start the hand; with the river he had none. He didn't even wait for the river to come out, barreling out of the secondary feature table area as fast as he could.

Moon is once again the chip leader with a whopping 45.0 million chips.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Was just chatting about this with another FOFC'er:
1.) on the turn check-raise are you suggesting that he fold in that spot with flush? Or call with hopes that opponent has trips, strong flush draw, or air?
2.) if you go to the river and the other player puts your stack at risk do you make a hero fold there?

Looking back on hand, he is probably going to regret getting cute with pre-flop raise and shoving on turn. But which was the biggest mistake?

If he checks the turn card, then his whole stack won't be at risk on the river. There won't be enough money in the pot for Moon to do that. But once he got raised on the turn, then I think he had to either shove or make a hero fold.

[larrymcg421]

Of course, Moon's call could be considered pretty risky. Not that I'm saying I could lay down a flush there, but you've got to consider it when your opponent reraises you all in once the board paired. I remember Arieh correctly folding in a similar situation in 2004.

[larrymcg421]

Ivey makes the Final Table!

Moon busts Smith with 88 v AA.

[larrymcg421]

And this pool will not be decided until November.

It's still down to jbergey22 rooting for Ivey, and Comey rooting for everyone else.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And this pool will not be decided until November.

It's still down to jbergey22 rooting for Ivey, and Comey rooting for everyone else.

Very talented final table. Im not liking my chances even though I have the best player in the world IMO.

[ntndeacon]

if Only I had picked Ivey over Furgesen

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Very talented final table. Im not liking my chances even though I have the best player in the world IMO.

I think when you're talking poker and not any specific game, I don't see how this can be argue right now. He had that dry spell at the WSOP the last few years but he came to this year's event ready to play. Two bracelets already and he wins this final table it will be one of if not the best World Series runs for anyone.

Interestingly, of his seven bracelets none are in hold 'em. He has Omaha and stud with lowball mixed in but no hold 'em -- unless you want to count SHOE.

[ntndeacon]

This has really been both Ivey's and Lisandro's WSOP. Has there ever been a WSOP where someone won 3 bracelets before? Here we have the potential for that to happen twice!

[digamma]

It's really, really cool that Ivey made the final table.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think when you're talking poker and not any specific game, I don't see how this can be argue right now. He had that dry spell at the WSOP the last few years but he came to this year's event ready to play. Two bracelets already and he wins this final table it will be one of if not the best World Series runs for anyone.

Interestingly, of his seven bracelets none are in hold 'em. He has Omaha and stud with lowball mixed in but no hold 'em -- unless you want to count SHOE.

This I agree with however a couple people didnt have him on their 10 in this so possibly they have an argument Athough it may just have been that he seems more focused on his high stakes games and these tournaments are simply pocket change for him at this point(not the Main Event).

I know if i were playing against Hellmouth or Ivey it would be no comparison as whod Id be intimitated by. Ivey keeps constant pressure on the opponents while Hellmouth will sit back try to steal a blind or 2 and only play top hands. Both styles are successful but its funny to me watching High Stakes poker and watching Hellmouth get bullied around.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

This has really been both Ivey's and Lisandro's WSOP. Has there ever been a WSOP where someone won 3 bracelets before? Here we have the potential for that to happen twice!

If Phil Ivey wins his third bracelet this year, it will be the second time he's won three bracelets in a year (2002). The other players to do it are Puggy Pearson, Ted Forrest, and Phil Hellmuth.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by digamma

It's really, really cool that Ivey made the final table.

You just confirmed my point that Ivey is the best thing for this final table. Thanks. ; )

[larrymcg421]

With Ivey's elimination, Comey is the 2009 WSOP pool champion.