Alright boyz, Here we go... The Championship Manager 2010 Impressions thread

[SirFozzie]

No, I have not gone completely over to the darkside. I have my FM2010 preorder for the end of the next month, but I'm intrigued about what CM10 is going to be like, especially with the Pay What You Want Campaign, they're currently doing.

They offer the game via digital download for a minimum of a penny, plus 2.50 pounds for delivery fee. You can pay more if you want, it's up to you. It ends in a couple days, however.

They will also be periodically offering season updates (so, say, you can download the January 1st file, and the game will not only have all the transfers and moves through January 1st, the season itself will be updated with all the games through January 1). This is a paid service (I think 5 pounds for the season), but it's an interesting concept.

I'm coming into this with low expectations, and I will be frank, the fact that someone managed to tactically break the match engine in the demo is not encouraging.

But again, at the price, it's worth a shot, to see what FM2010's going to be competing against.

Championship Manager Shop

[bhlloy]

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts, especially in regards to processing time. FM has become a little too resource intensive for my crappy desktop, so if this is an FM-lite I'll definitely give it a shot.

[SirFozzie]

It's going in a couple different directions.. for example, you can design your own set pieces (which is how they broke the match engine in the demo.. trying to find the video).

It may not be for the quick simmers, as you can run practices daily, apparently..

EDIT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9HpiXYnHS8 is the video of how to break the match engine in the demo, versus man marking.

[SirFozzie]

The game drops about 7 PM on thursday, btw (00:00 the 11th)

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

It's going in a couple different directions.. for example, you can design your own set pieces (which is how they broke the match engine in the demo.. trying to find the video).

It may not be for the quick simmers, as you can run practices daily, apparently..

EDIT:YouTube - Championship Manager 2010 Set Piece Creator Flaw is the video of how to break the match engine in the demo, versus man marking.

uh, wow. that's pretty impressive AI right there. not going to bother with this one then.

EDIT - not just that one video. Some of the others on youtube with demo action look absolutely horrific.

[SirFozzie]

They've had another six weeks to work on it, so I'll see what it's like.. as I said, low expectations, and it's a worth $5 on a flyer.

[Big Fo]

And I thought near post headers were effective on past couple editions of FM, that's something else. I can see why Rafa Benitez prefers zonal marking on corners after seeing that video. Slick finishing from Casillas on his lesser foot.

[Nugget699]

Tbf, Football Manager, or WWSM or whatever it's called, is certainly far from perfect. Some of the defending on the videos for FM2010 is poor even by my standards.

Don't get me wrong, FM is streets ahead of CM, but everyone seems quick to blast CM for its poor AI yet FM is far from a polished product that it should be after about 6 versions of 2D representation.

[bhlloy]

Don't agree. I've never seen something anywhere near that bad in years of playing FM since the split. All the WTF moments I've seen (and this is personal anecdotal experience) have been things that really could and have happened in soccer games. Perfect - of course not. But pretty damn close for a sim.

Certainly nothing anywhere close to as laughable as those CM videos.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Nugget699

Tbf, Football Manager, or WWSM or whatever it's called, is certainly far from perfect. Some of the defending on the videos for FM2010 is poor even by my standards.

The main problem with FM at present imho isn't the actual movement and decision making in the game - its explaining it to the user.

For instance there is a 'debug' mode where we can see what each player is effectively 'thinking' and 'doing' - sometimes you'll see something and think 'thats dopey' - but when you look at what the players are thinking one of the players in question has simply made a legitimate bad decision or not looked to see where another player is positioned.

This can lead to some very silly looking things such as a pass from a left back to the center of defense where an opposition striker runs on and slots home - this DOES happen irl and its proper imho that it happens now and again in the game BUT the commentary needs to explain such things to the user more clearly at times.

(just my tuppence worth)

[Mota]

I'd love to see something like that debug mode during gameplay. As a non-football fan I really have a hard time "seeing" the action unfold and where my strengths / weaknesses are.

I would actually love for it to be a bit more of a GM - type sim where I can do all the backstage stuff, but let the coach I hire actually do the on the field decisions. More along the lines of North American text sims.

[DaddyTorgo]

Marc - perhaps the solution to that is just to have (and you could start with a selection of "key moments") some sort of replication of a post-game conversation with each player, where you could have the feedback from the debug mode displayed to the user (in a manner consistent with the game presentation).

something like

Coach: "So PLAYER X, tell me about what was going on with MOMENT Y"
Player: "Well Coach, I thought I got distracted by a player's run in the midfield and got beat. I didn't have the speed to catch up."

And you could have the "key moments" for each player be selectable through some sort of explanation of what happened "their 2nd goal where you got beat" or "that great thru-ball you played that resulted in our game-winning goal" or something like that?

Introduce the feature by having it be non-selectable where it just links to key moments (goals scored for or against or cards given i'm thinking) and doesn't give you anymore option than that (ie you can't pick "what happened at 32:34?"). With the goal being to have more of the game (the whole game?) selectable in the version after?

[SirFozzie]

How about just a line in the commentary..

"X tried to pass the ball to Y, but a miscommunication freed Z on the breakaway.."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

How about just a line in the commentary..

"X tried to pass the ball to Y, but a miscommunication freed Z on the breakaway.."

Foz has a point for things that are performance related

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Mota

I'd love to see something like that debug mode during gameplay. As a non-football fan I really have a hard time "seeing" the action unfold and where my strengths / weaknesses are.

I would actually love for it to be a bit more of a GM - type sim where I can do all the backstage stuff, but let the coach I hire actually do the on the field decisions. More along the lines of North American text sims.

x2

FM should be the perfect game for me with its depth and immersion possibilities, but my knowledge of soccer strategy is non-existant, and every time I try and play I spend a good deal of time prepping my team and strategy, only to get drilled by every team 4-0 for as many weeks as I can put up with before I quit.

[SirFozzie]

I understand how you want to know the nuts and bolts about why your player had a brain fart and hit a stupid pass.. but let's not invite "death by too much information" here.

I would love to see debug mode available as an option for the real grognards, but seriously, 1% of the userbase would even give a damn about it, so having it enabled as a default would be stupid."

Actually, this is something that would possibly be even more interesting from the Assistant Manager's side.

"Player X has a tendency to take too long making decisions on what to do with the ball"

"Player Y has a tendency to panic and make risky decisions"

"Goalie Z Has a habit of not communicating properly with his teammates..."

[DaddyTorgo]

that's true foz...we already get some of that in the scouting reports on players...assman evaluations of those traits on our players would be a good idea

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The main problem with FM at present imho isn't the actual movement and decision making in the game - its explaining it to the user.

For instance there is a 'debug' mode where we can see what each player is effectively 'thinking' and 'doing' - sometimes you'll see something and think 'thats dopey' - but when you look at what the players are thinking one of the players in question has simply made a legitimate bad decision or not looked to see where another player is positioned.

This can lead to some very silly looking things such as a pass from a left back to the center of defense where an opposition striker runs on and slots home - this DOES happen irl and its proper imho that it happens now and again in the game BUT the commentary needs to explain such things to the user more clearly at times.

(just my tuppence worth)

As a user, I'd LOVE to be able to turn on that mode and see what the players are thinking. It might break the immersion a little but would do wonders to helping me understand the game. Can we turn on that mode and I just don't know how?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Bobble

As a user, I'd LOVE to be able to turn on that mode and see what the players are thinking. It might break the immersion a little but would do wonders to helping me understand the game. Can we turn on that mode and I just don't know how?

No its a 'debug' mode which isn't in the released game.

(there are lots of these in the 'development' version of the game which display hidden information for example or translate some of the displayed information from 'text' into the gibberish data which means something to us developers)

The reason its not visible (and will never be so on my watch ) is because it'd be unrealistic for a manager to know these things imho HOWEVER explaining things better in the commentary would be realistic and help people understand why defenders sometimes make mistakes for instance or when a goalkeeper is caught off-balance and unable to save that ball which trickles past him (you sometimes see this irl where a keeper has started to move right then realised at the last moment he's heading the wrong way - his balance and initially momentum mean he almost stays 'put' as he trys to redirect his movement).

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

No its a 'debug' mode which isn't in the released game.

(there are lots of these in the 'development' version of the game which display hidden information for example or translate some of the displayed information from 'text' into the gibberish data which means something to us developers)

Thanks for the quick response, Marc.

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

...when a goalkeeper is caught off-balance and unable to save that ball which trickles past him (you sometimes see this irl where a keeper has started to move right then realised at the last moment he's heading the wrong way - his balance and initially momentum mean he almost stays 'put' as he trys to redirect his movement).

I've done this myself. You look...and feel...like an idiot. None of which prevents me from yelling at my digital keeper in FM, though.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

No its a 'debug' mode which isn't in the released game.

(there are lots of these in the 'development' version of the game which display hidden information for example or translate some of the displayed information from 'text' into the gibberish data which means something to us developers)

The reason its not visible (and will never be so on my watch ) is because it'd be unrealistic for a manager to know these things imho HOWEVER explaining things better in the commentary would be realistic and help people understand why defenders sometimes make mistakes for instance or when a goalkeeper is caught off-balance and unable to save that ball which trickles past him (you sometimes see this irl where a keeper has started to move right then realised at the last moment he's heading the wrong way - his balance and initially momentum mean he almost stays 'put' as he trys to redirect his movement).

i don't think debug-mode should be made visible, i just think that since as you've said the data is already there, that it seems like it should be possible to make further use of that data (either in commentary as foz suggested, or in "What the hell were you thinking you daft fool? Why'd you commit that foul?" type of interactions with the players (player then fires back with "I was caught out of position because of miscommunication on offsides trap" or something).

Used judiciously - not every time, but make it an option to pull aside 1-2 players after a game for "talks" (positive or negative) if the coach wants, it could be helpful and immersive.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Bobble

Thanks for the quick response, Marc.



I've done this myself. You look...and feel...like an idiot. None of which prevents me from yelling at my digital keeper in FM, though.

I never yell at my digital keepers. Well except maybe for my digital backup-keepers. My regen-backup who has a knack for punching the ball away and giving up rebounds gets a dressing down from time to time. However the trade-off to that is that he does make some spectacular saves sometimes.

But my digital-Buffon was, and my digital-Akinfeev is, precious.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I never yell at my digital keepers. Well except maybe for my digital backup-keepers. My regen-backup who has a knack for punching the ball away and giving up rebounds gets a dressing down from time to time. However the trade-off to that is that he does make some spectacular saves sometimes.

But my digital-Buffon was, and my digital-Akinfeev is, precious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't yell at my digital keepers NEARLY as much as I yell at my digital forwards. "It was WIDE OPEN, JACKHOLE! How can you MISS that!?!? That's why we're still in the Northwest Thursday Afternoon Grandma's Knitting and Football Conference. Way to go."

[flere-imsaho]

You could add it to post-match interviews.

"When asked by the Guardian's James Richardson why he missed a wide open net in minute 60 against Arsenal, United's Rooney explained that he had been momentarily distracted by thinking about what he'd have for tea. Reached for comment later, Manager Sir Alex Ferguson said "Tea?! I'll give him his ****ing tea that useless little ****ing ****ed **** ****!"

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

You could add it to post-match interviews.

"When asked by the Guardian's James Richardson why he missed a wide open net in minute 60 against Arsenal, United's Rooney explained that he had been momentarily distracted by thinking about what he'd have for tea. Reached for comment later, Manager Sir Alex Ferguson said "Tea?! I'll give him his ****ing tea that useless little ****ing ****ed **** ****!"

that would work very well. my only gripe with that would be that you're only being fed one moment - i'd rather have it to where you could sort of...choose the moment that you felt was most important. maybe you don't care that rooney missed cuz you won 3-1, but you're curious about why your defenders gave up a "soft" goal.

[I. J. Reilly]

Since 90% of the comments in here are about FM, is it safe to assume that CM is still crap?

[SirFozzie]

CM is not out yet... I just started the thread to bring up the Pay What You Want thing ending.

[DaddyTorgo]

if the match engine is that broken i'll pay...50 cents

[Big Fo]

Now that Square-Enix has bought Eidos they should make CM a turn-based soccer RPG.

95th minute: van Persie scores! A dramatic late equalizer for Arsenal...oh the ref has his flag up, he was offside.

Options:
a) berate official
b) kick water bottle
c) enter tactics menu

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Now that Square-Enix has bought Eidos they should make CM a turn-based soccer RPG.

95th minute: van Persie scores! A dramatic late equalizer for Arsenal...oh the ref has his flag up, he was offside.

Options:
a) berate official
b) kick water bottle
c) enter tactics menu

All we need is to add some big hair and a gunsword to Arsene Wnger, and I think we have a winner

[FrogMan]

fwiw, there's about 14 hours left in that Pay what you want promo. I tried it. Oddly enough, I wanted to add £0.49 to make it an even £3 but they asked me to register to their site when I was in the cart and when I got back, it had resetted to £2.51 so that's what I paid. Heh.

Don't know how much I'll play, but the price was quite reasonable.

FM

[SirFozzie]

yeah, that was my POV in deciding to purchase it too

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The main problem with FM at present imho isn't the actual movement and decision making in the game - its explaining it to the user.

For instance there is a 'debug' mode where we can see what each player is effectively 'thinking' and 'doing' - sometimes you'll see something and think 'thats dopey' - but when you look at what the players are thinking one of the players in question has simply made a legitimate bad decision or not looked to see where another player is positioned.

This can lead to some very silly looking things such as a pass from a left back to the center of defense where an opposition striker runs on and slots home - this DOES happen irl and its proper imho that it happens now and again in the game BUT the commentary needs to explain such things to the user more clearly at times.

(just my tuppence worth)

Every now and then MarcV comes on here and posts something about how FM works underneath the hood.

I recall a little piece awhile ago about two players going for a 50\50 ball and what FM was doing to resolve who won the ball. Like this post talking about what each player is "thinking" it makes me feel the need to reach for my handy box of kleenex

I've said it before and I'll go on saying it. FM is the only sports game I've ever played that makes me feel like I'm dealing with human players and not simply a bag of computer ratings with a name attached.

Thanks for the insight Marc.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Mota

I would actually love for it to be a bit more of a GM - type sim where I can do all the backstage stuff, but let the coach I hire actually do the on the field decisions. More along the lines of North American text sims.

Good luck with that. I've been pushing it for years - if the assman can make decisions when you're on vacation, why can't you have boxes to let him run training or assign scouts or choose gameday tactics/run the team in games*. Especially because not only is the last one an option in exhibition matches, but you can also workaround somewhat by creating a 2nd account, then going on vacation with your first account and viewing your teams games from the 2nd one. Marc's said people like us aren't the target market (most buyers focus heavily on the current Premiership season and really put in the effort to tweak tactics week to week, rather than looking to play as a long-term sim) - and I agree - but I do think there are enough of us out there that its worth the minimal effort to add in options. Especially when quite a few interested people are turned off by the steep learning curve.

* - I wouldn't expect him to be fantastic at any of these - maybe in one if his ratings match up, but I'd be willing to take the tradeoff of a manager at 90% or training at 90% of what I could do because it simply gets very tedious to me.

[SirFozzie]

Well, the game is out, as is the free CM Live September update:



Defaultt CM10 Digital Download & September Update links - Get them NOW!
Championship Manager 2010
To buy (or download if you have already purchased) Championship Manager 2010 visit the shop: Championship Manager Shop

To buy: You can use your forum account to login, and follow the the instructions as shown. Any queries contact: [email protected]

To download: Login, and visit 'Zone 3' where your download should be waiting for you!




September Update
To download the data and game update select your language from the following link: September Update - Download page

Click the flag of your chosen language and click the download button at the bottom of the blue splash page.




NOTE: You need to have CM2010 fully installed before installing the September Update.

[SirFozzie]

Ok, I've downloaded the game, installed it, and the september game and data update.

You get three activations, and if you no longer want to use CM10 on a computer, you can de-activate it and get your activation back.

The game I'll be using is the July 1 update (basically, the end of season 07-08 one, not the end of transfer window September 1 update). The first game I run will be every nation to see what it runs like.

You select a nation, and you get all its leagues (you can't select for example, just the EPL, if you select England..)

England has the following, for example:

EPL
Championship
League 1
League 2
Blue Square National
Blue Square Regional (North/South)
Level 7 (Ryman/Southern/Ismithian League)

Note: There is no US league in the game

[SirFozzie]

One thing I do not like, is the game advances on its own, unless you pause it, even with new emails. You also get daily scouting level emails

[SirFozzie]

Not going to be many more updates tonight, it's slow going, but I will give credit to it for one thing.. in the first preseason game, I saw something that I don't see in FM.. a guy tried to take a shot, and the goalie moved, and even though it was subsequently blocked, it was something that I never saw with FM

[SirFozzie]

Ok, Whafuck moment here.. Freddy Adu has moved to Manchester United on loan..

[SirFozzie]

Couple of thoughts after playing a few more preseason games..

At times, the actions of the players seem a bit overexaggerated.. a 30 yard on the ground pass doesn't need a full windup like he's trying to take a shot from 45 yards out.

[SirFozzie]

Way too much dilly-dallying with the ball in front of the net by the defense.

[AlexB]

It's a lot better than the last version, but it's not particularly challenging. I've started in the Lowest English league tire, and it's very easy to get players I shouldn't be able to at ridiculously low wages.

Pre-season I sold 15 players and brought 16 in (!), some of whom IRL play 2nd Division French football, and Gilles Grimandi works as a scout for me (for free I might add!)

The match engine is not great either: goalies not coming off their line and the defending in particular are poor, and the ball trajectories are not very well done. Goalies often save or catch the ball in a very eccentric fashion!

But it's kind of fun, I really like the way the tactics are done, and there are no annoying press conferences (or much other superfluous fluff for that matter)

It's not going to equal FM for accuracy, but it is easy to play and flows very well, and worth the £5 I paid for it (I played the demo and thought it was a decent budget title - in retrospect I think it probably deserves a £10 price tbh)

[AlexB]

Dola,

And I also really like the way the match info and data is presented: the assistant notes are an especially nice touch.

There are a lot of poor animations though!