Terminator vs T2

[Sgran]

Okay, let's have this out with as little bloodshed as possible.

I honestly do not understand how people can say that T2 was better than the original. Of course, there's no accounting for taste, but with that said, I'm wondering if people who liked T2 so much didn't see the first one when it came out. The original Terminator movie was one of those magical experiences for me (i was 14 years old, for what that's worth). Tight plot, great balance between action and character/plot development, edge-of-seat tension, humor, and to top it all off, a black guy in a truck who said "what the hell?" in such a way that I practiced that line for weeks until I could reproduce it perfectly.

Maybe by the time T2 came out I was already savvy enough to know that there was no way Arnold would be the bad guy again (which really wasn't clear at the beginning of the original -- another great point), and when Bad to the Bone came on they'd already lost me. I liked the progression of Linda Blake's character, and I even liked John, but it was way to easy to parcel out the movie into action scene - foreshadowing - catch phrase - special effects, etc. I came out of T2 feeling empty, whereas the original really blew me away and had me thinking about the plot for a long time.

I realize now that there was nothing original about the original movie, but the fact remains that I can still enjoy it, whereas T2 is a couple of good special effects to enjoy while I brace for the hastalavista, baby lines.

[Chief Rum]

I didn't see Terminator in the theaters (probably too young to talk my dad into it), but I did see it a bunch of times well before T2 came out. I view them as different approaches to stories in the same timeline, trying to do slightly different things.

In 1984, action movies were starting to pop up more, but it wasn't as much of the big thing it got to be down the road. So Terminator was more a legit scifi story. Also, as the first one, they needed to concentrate more on plot and stuff (or I mean as much as any movie without a "history" of success).

As a taut thriller and scifi story with some horror elements, Terminator was excellent.

By the time T2 came around, this big mythology had developed around Terminator, and the story around the story became a big thing. And Arnold really blew up (partly because of Terminator), and action movies became huge, huge money makers and now the story had a "history" of success (less need for story & plot, it's writing itself).

So T2 ends up a terrific action movie with a scary evil guy, neat effects, and more story than action movies usually get. Plus, those effects for T2 were top of the line for their day. I have heard people say that T2 was the pinnacle action movie, effects wise, before The Matrix came along.

So they're both excellent with what they were trying to do, and I enjoy them both on their individual level.

[Pyser]

this reminds me of the alien vs aliens debate

for the record, i vote sequel is better in both franchises.

[MikeVic]

I was too young to see Terminator when it came out. So T2 was better for me, and is one of my favourite movies ever. I still like the original quite a bit too, but T2 holds my attention more.

I like Alien and Aliens probably equally, but haven't seen those as much at the Terminator franchise.

[Schmidty]

Terminator is better, and so is Alien. The sequels are more sensational action movies. Same as Batman Begins (better story), and Dark Knight (better action).

[KWhit]

Terminator > T2
Alien > Aliens

[Schmidty]

Dola.

And yeah, I just said that Batman Begins is better than Dark Knight.

[Schmidty]

KWhit needs to stop stealing my thunder!!!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Same as Batman Begins (better story), and Dark Knight (better action).

I'd definitely agree with this, even though I loved Dark Knight. I think it's because I went into Begins not expecting much at all, and it blew me away.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'd definitely agree with this, even though I loved Dark Knight. I think it's because I went into Begins not expecting much at all, and it blew me away.

Don't get me wrong, I loved DK, but it was much more style over substance. That's not a bad thing, it's just different (obviously). I actually think I like them pretty closely (BB a smidge ahead). I will say that if Ledger and Eckhart hadn't been in it, DK would have been average, since it was more about them than it was about Batman. He was almost like a supporting character in the movie.

[Kodos]

I'll go with the sequels as well, but both original movies were top notch as well.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'll go with the sequels as well, but both original movies were top notch as well.

Once again, I'm with the alien with regards to movie tastes (we seem to have fairly similar tastes- not always but a lot), this time on T2 and Aliens. But all 4 movies are quality. They were sequels 10 years apart where you kindof had moviemaking boundaries so they were different genres almost. Alien was horror while Terminator sci-fi but then both Aliens and T2 were action (or sci-fi action).

I don't see the Batman Begins/Dark Knight in the same vein at all. They feel the same and it's a story vs story thing, in my mind. Both were well polished dark action movies. I don't think the comparisons to the previous ones are at all apt. I just didn't feel that we have the genre shift to consider and both even felt similar.

SI

[Tigercat]

Thought that Aliens had more good horror scenes in it than Alien. (Although the quality of the individual horror moments of Alien is superior.) Thought that T2 had more good scifi concepts/scenes than the original.

Add in that both sequels have better action than any other movie in their specific genre, and you have the reasons why many think the sequels are better.

[kcchief19]

Terminator had more grit but T2 was just ... "bigger." Terminator movies will never be known for the scripts and acting, but T2 was much more polished in that regard.

But the biggest thing for me is the "cinema" of the movies. Terminator looks like it was shot over a weekend on a shoestring budget. The special effects at the end are simply cringe-worthy. I remember when T2 came out it was one of those films like Star Wars or Jurassic Park where special effects took a giant leap forward.

Looking back on the movies now, T2 looks like it could have been made within the last 10 years. Terminator looks like it was made in 1976, Linda Hamilton's hair notwithstanding. That's not good for a movie that came out in '84.

[MJ4H]

Terminator > T2 (the kid actor was so annoying I can barely watch that movie, though I like it a lot other than that)

Dark Knight > Batman Begins (I appreciate both and admit it is close, but the Joker was too good and pushes DK over the top)

No opinion on Alien(s)

[Kodos]

Frankly, Batman Begins wasn't nearly as good as it was cracked up to be. Dark Knight would be among the best, if not for the stupid "I'm Batman--stay away from me!" voice.

[Tigercat]

Batman Begins had no focus. No villain focus (or not a good enough of one) and no overall focus (is this a movie in a true Batman comic book like universe, as out of this world gothic touches in Gotham, amongst other things, suggested; or is this a realistic world Batman movie?) Dark Knight got that focus in giving a true foil to Batman's nature, and deciding that the movie would be Batman and Batman villains in a more realistic world.

[Schmidty]

BB was about about Batman. It wasn't about the villains, and that's why I liked it. It didn't have a crutch. It's "focus" was character development of the most important character - Batman.

Both were still great though.

[Sgran]

It's interesting that nearly everyone comes down on one side of the fence in these cases of original vs sequel. I actually think Aliens is better than Alien for one simple reason: the Alien effects at the end of the original are cringeworthy. Watch the scene where the alien is closing in on Lambert. It's like the rubber suit is on a skateboard with his T-rex hands out. Brutal at a key point in the movie. Aliens is gripping from start to finish and the effects compliment the story rather than acting as a connect the dots for the plot, which is the feeling I get from T2 (okay, so it would be cool if the bad guy shoots out this liquid sword from his finger at this point, so why does he do this?).

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

BB was about about Batman. It wasn't about the villains, and that's why I liked it. It didn't have a crutch. It's "focus" was character development of the most important character - Batman.

Both were still great though.

But can you get the best idea of who Batman is if his foil(s) are so weak? Do you know what really makes Batman Batman if his world is a muddled mix of half comic book world and half realistic? (Whereas in Dark knight you knew Batman had to deal with a realistic world that happens to have villains..)

Keaton Batman or Reeves Superman I would have been much weaker if they didn't have strong clear foils for the hero and his ideals. (And Batman I would have been weaker if Batman's Gotham then would have been a less cohesive vision, like it was in Batman Begins.) Batman Begins could have been a much, much better "character development" Batman movie if it was as well planned and executed as the Dark Knight.

[SFL Cat]

Alien and Terminator were excellent originals...but their sequels were superior in every respect.

I liked the pacing in Batman Begins much better than Dark Knight, which was way tooooo long IMO.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I like Aliens more than Alien and Terminator more than T2.

T2 is a much slicker movie. It has held up incredibly well over time special-effects and action-wise, while Terminator really hasn't. That said, I like the story in Terminator a lot more. I really love the whole love story between Hicks and Sarah Connor. That core was completely absent in T2. Also, Terminator was much grittier and didn't pander to nonsense like the whole "Hasta Lavista, baby" or the annoying kid screaming "Stop killing people!" or Arnold fighting off the SWAT team without killing anyone or the whole "I know now why you cry" line. T2 had better action and effects, but overall Terminator is a better movie because it lacks any amount of silliness and has a great love story.

That is all.

I don't think comparing Alien to Aliens and Terminator to T2 is fair. T2 is very similar to Terminator. You can almost run down the films scene-for-scene and they are nearly mirror images of themselves.

Alien and Aliens are two completely different movies and in different genres. Alien is a horror movie set in space, whereas Aliens is an action movie set in space. It's comparing apples to oranges. Both are top notch films in their respective genres. I just happen to like "Aliens" more.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Alien and Terminator were excellent originals...but their sequels were superior in every respect.

I liked the pacing in Batman Begins much better than Dark Knight, which was way tooooo long IMO.

just curious: did you see Terminator in a theater?

[Mustang]

If both those movies where released as 3 1/2 hour long movies, the reviews would probably be 'the first half of the movie, while good, was just a prelude to the action scenes at the end'

The story driven side of me prefers the first of each. The action side of me prefers the sequel. You are not going to get as much story in the second because it is all laid out for you solidly in the first of each and the second doesn't try to change it, fluff it up or generally try to fuck it up. (See Highlander II and Matrix II for examples of movies that take a good thing and try to build a different story)

[MrDNA]

OK, so which movie had a molten metal dude and which movie had a freaking baby alien busting out of someone's chest? NUFF SAID.

[BrianD]

I think the tough part of the Alien vs. Aliens and Terminator vs. T2 debates is that the original movies have a different strength of impact than the sequels as well as a different duration of impact. Alien and Terminator told a story which was relatively new (in terms of details if not themes). Since the story is new, it is very engrossing. You don't really know what you are in for, so the movies really suck you in. In subsequent viewings, the story is much less new and engrossing. You are no longer watching to learn what the story is, you are just watching to enjoy the telling of the story.

The sequels were much less about story and much more about action. These movies don't necessarily have the same strength of impact since action movies feel very formulaic. You get the action, some downtime to build up to the next action scene, and some comic relief to break up the tension. Everything is very familiar, so it doesn't seem all that new beyond some possible new effects. In subsequent viewings, there isn't as much of a drop-off since you still have the familiar action process and the only thing you lose is the shiny feel of new effects.

If a person watched T1 and T2 and A1 and A2 just once each, my guess is that the originals would stand out as better movies. There is more meat to those movies and slower parts don't feel so slow since the story still has people hooked. For people who have seen all of the movies multiple times, it probably comes down to the preference between action/adrenaline and the craft of telling a very familiar story.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Sgran

just curious: did you see Terminator in a theater?

Yes, I have seen all the movies I mentioned in movie theaters.

[ISiddiqui]

For me:

Alien > Aliens
T2 > Terminator
Dark Knight >>>>> Batman Begins

I agree with the sentiment that both Alien and Terminator were different genres than Aliens and Terminator 2. That makes it a bit different of a comparison (and it depends on how much you like the horror and sci-fi genres compared to the action genre).

I think Batman Begins and The Dark Knight both are in the same genre and while I didn't like Batman Begins (thought it was very meh-worthy), I really liked The Dark Knight. Perhaps it is because of the above discussion of worthy villains.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I think the tough part of the Alien vs. Aliens and Terminator vs. T2 debates is that the original movies have a different strength of impact than the sequels as well as a different duration of impact. Alien and Terminator told a story which was relatively new (in terms of details if not themes). Since the story is new, it is very engrossing. You don't really know what you are in for, so the movies really suck you in. In subsequent viewings, the story is much less new and engrossing. You are no longer watching to learn what the story is, you are just watching to enjoy the telling of the story.

The sequels were much less about story and much more about action. These movies don't necessarily have the same strength of impact since action movies feel very formulaic. You get the action, some downtime to build up to the next action scene, and some comic relief to break up the tension. Everything is very familiar, so it doesn't seem all that new beyond some possible new effects. In subsequent viewings, there isn't as much of a drop-off since you still have the familiar action process and the only thing you lose is the shiny feel of new effects.

If a person watched T1 and T2 and A1 and A2 just once each, my guess is that the originals would stand out as better movies. There is more meat to those movies and slower parts don't feel so slow since the story still has people hooked. For people who have seen all of the movies multiple times, it probably comes down to the preference between action/adrenaline and the craft of telling a very familiar story.

nail. head.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

But the biggest thing for me is the "cinema" of the movies. Terminator looks like it was shot over a weekend on a shoestring budget. The special effects at the end are simply cringe-worthy.

Watch it on blu-ray.

It looks worse.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Same as Batman Begins (better story), and Dark Knight (better action).

Really? A secret society of ninjas? I honestly can't even watch Batman Begins anymore.

[JediKooter]

Both movies, T1 and T2 are good movies on their own. T2 compliments T1 very well in my opinion and that is a hard thing for sequels to accomplish.

Sometimes sequels are better than or just as good as the original, but, not too often. T2 is one of those rare sequels that is just as good or better than the original.

Side note: I would be ok if they updated the SFX of T1 to make it look less like Ray Harryhausen did the work on it. Not to diss Ray, but, the stop motion in T1 just looks extremely dated and doesn't fit with the rest of the movies in the franchise.

[Coder]

Just came back from Salvation (which I found mildly entertaining).. to me, this is the movie I wanted after Terminator (the first movie). After having seen the first movie, all I wanted was a glimpse of an post apocalyptic future showing me the war against the robots.

In that aspect, T2 is completely unnecessary, just a cheap way to capitalize on Arnold's stardom (and of course he couldn't be the bad guy this time).

However, the movie is saved by a pretty good story (though not as great as the first one) with great action.

By itself, T2 is a very entertaining movie. As a sequel, I feel it fails in the "canon"-category. Three time traveling robots is two too many (and by that I mean the first movie was enough).

[Schmidty]

Does the fact that I enjoyed T3 make me an idiot?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Coder

Just came back from Salvation (which I found mildly entertaining).. to me, this is the movie I wanted after Terminator (the first movie). After having seen the first movie, all I wanted was a glimpse of an post apocalyptic future showing me the war against the robots.

In that aspect, T2 is completely unnecessary, just a cheap way to capitalize on Arnold's stardom (and of course he couldn't be the bad guy this time).

However, the movie is saved by a pretty good story (though not as great as the first one) with great action.

By itself, T2 is a very entertaining movie. As a sequel, I feel it fails in the "canon"-category. Three time traveling robots is two too many (and by that I mean the first movie was enough).

The T2 trilogy Sterling wrote sort of addressed that, in that he had them all going back at the same time, each to their different points, to account for the time machine getting destroyed.

Not sure how that works, exactly, in terms of Skynet realizing it needs the other two, and builds/sends them along, but I suspect that was always going to be a tricky bit of plot wiggling for Sterling to deal with anyway.

[thesloppy]

I don't need fucking kids in my action movies. T2 bit. Now I know why you cry, indeed.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Does the fact that I enjoyed T3 make me an idiot?

Yes.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Does the fact that I enjoyed T3 make me an idiot?

Hmm, did you also like Temple of Doom? If so, I think I have my answer

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Does the fact that I enjoyed T3 make me an idiot?

No, becuase I sort of enjoyed T3 as well and I am, without a doubt, not an idiot. (Most of the times, not all of the times.)

[MikeVic]

I watched T3 yesterday actually. I didn't like it up to the big car chase, and the car chase did nothing for me. But after that I thought it was solid.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I liked T3 more than T4, but I fear that's damning with faint praise.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Does the fact that I enjoyed T3 make me an idiot?

I'm not a movie snob by any stretch- I'm mostly an action movie fan. But T3 just didn't click at all for me. I don't need complex plot but I need a baseline level and it didn't even have that. When everything collided in this giant plot wreck at the vet office less than half an hour into the movie, I knew we were in for some trouble and it just went down from there.

Or, as Kodos said...

SI

[Abe Sargent]

A couple of others for thoughts:

Godfather > Godfather 2

Road Warrior > Mad Max

[Sgran]

T3 was so bad I can't even remember the plot. I just remember Ahnold shooting people with a casket over his shoulder and then there was some weird ambiguous ending with a bunch of helicopters or something. Absolutely retched. Bad even if it was made for TV.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Sgran

T3 was so bad I can't even remember the plot. I just remember Ahnold shooting people with a casket over his shoulder and then there was some weird ambiguous ending with a bunch of helicopters or something. Absolutely retched. Bad even if it was made for TV.

I don't know what movie you're thinking of. I thought T3 ended with John and Kate (plus eight) in the fallout shelter...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I don't know what movie you're thinking of. I thought T3 ended with John and Kate (plus eight) in the fallout shelter...

It did. I thought the ending was the best part. I didn't see it coming at all.