(Little League) Is this poor sportsmanship?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sorry Tasan but I see no problem with what you're describing at all. Been there, done that on the coach pitch thing & had a miserable experience but teaching players when to advance is very much part of the learning process, as is learning how to back up throws & make the correct play to limit the damage caused by errors.

It's frustrating as a coach but it's an extremely legitimate part of the game. Sounds like you might be happier in a non-score league.

To be a poor sport? Sorry, but at that age it's about learning fundamentals, how to work with others and having fun not who can be the bigger douche coach. Why even put fielders out there then? Hell, let the kid hit and just instruct to sprint around the bases because they won't ever tag him out most likely...

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Y'know, this does bring to mind the old adage about the importance of throwing strikes. No walk, no problem.

Glad I could help

This is the truest thing posted in this whole thread. If you have a pitcher who throws strikes, and a catcher who can catch them (can't tell you how frustrating it is when you have a catcher who can't catch at the young ages) things will just work out fine. This year my Little League team can't hit (we have a batting average of .175) but yet we remain competitive as we've got some absolutely dominating pitchers (4 kids with a WHIP under 2).

As for the original point, I think landshark is in the best position to know in what spirit it was offered, but I have no issues with the idea of that chant at the Little League age for all the reasons people have given, both in terms of focus and fundamentals.

[Ksyrup]

We're trying hard to develop several pitchers. Had them working since before winter with a former college softball pitcher who lives in the area. But teaching that underhand technique (honestly, I don't know how they do it and not blow out their arms by 15!) and controlling it, at 10 years old with 6 months practice and very little real game time, is extremely difficult.

My daughter is one of 2 catchers who basically picked up the equipment for the first time in February. She's trying her best, but it's all new to her and all of the responsibilities (catching/blocking the ball, fielding bunts, learning how/when to throw out base stealers, dealing with passed balls/wild pitches, the dropped third strike rule, etc.) are overwhelming her, I can tell. And then the whole runner on third thing that came up last night almost drove her to tears. I'm probably going to work with her tonight and tomorrow some to get her more comfortable with all of the situations she's going to face.

[Travis]

Best thing, at these ages is to use these things as examples for your own kids.

Obviously if another team is being obnoxious or poor sports, it's worth having the coach bringing it up with them, but it's a pretty rare case where that'll likely do anything.

So for some of the stuff mentioned, here's my take:

- The chanting as the pitcher is throwing: Teach your kids the value of being able to shut out extraneous noise. Sure it's a bit young, but we're not golfing here. Being able to focus in on the task at hand is huge in pretty much every sport and while you may get some oddities along the way, a consistent chant happening on every pitch would be an ideal start for getting them used to tuning out idle chatter.

- The automatic taking of second: Obviously if it's a passed ball on the catcher then there's not much you can do about it, but even for younger kids who can't make good throws to second, teach them a short relay (C - P - whoever is covering 2nd). By getting the ball back to the pitcher quickly it'll either throw a wrench into the runner going directly to 2nd and if the other team is automatically starting the runner on 3rd as soon as the pitcher turns to relay it to 2nd, then start having them fake it every now and then to keep the runner on third honest.

Again, some of this is likely happening a bit early, but teaching the kids how to turn an opponents strategy against them is a valuable tool. Not just in preventing these situations but showing the kids, that with a bit of thought and planning, it can be applied to other situations as well.

Doesn't make the other team or coaches any better, but gives your team a positive way to deal with these situations, teach them base skills and encourage them to adapt to situations.

I'm still partial to the pickoff play at second when we used to have the center fielder sneak in to take the throw, much better than the hidden ball trick

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chubby

To be a poor sport? Sorry, but at that age it's about learning fundamentals, how to work with others and having fun not who can be the bigger douche coach. Why even put fielders out there then? Hell, let the kid hit and just instruct to sprint around the bases because they won't ever tag him out most likely...

I had a team where half the players couldn't catch a cold in a snow storm but we somehow managed to get outs in the field. Hell Chubby, tee-ballers advance bases on errors and teams still (sometimes) get three outs before the other guy bats around.

Knowing when & how to advance as well as general baserunning is a fundamental part of the game. And it's hard to get more fundamental than backing up throws.

Again, since they aren't keeping score then I can see where a rule to manage this makes a certain amount of sense but there's nothing even remotely poor sportsmanship about playing the damned game the way it's meant to be played, which includes taking advantage of errors by your opponent.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Interesting. No one caught that during the scrimmage, as a HBP was treated the same way as a walk.

Umpire should immediately raise his hands to stop play. All runners on base must return to the base they were at (unless they are forced to advance by the batter that was hit). They do it that way so they don't have players running around while a hit batter lays injured on the ground. Allows the staff to make sure the batter is OK. Same rules in baseball in that regard.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But teaching that underhand technique (honestly, I don't know how they do it and not blow out their arms by 15!) and controlling it, at 10 years old with 6 months practice and very little real game time, is extremely difficult.

Actually, pitching a softball is MUCH less stressful on the arm than pitching a baseball. Underhand is a natural motion that doesn't stress the shoulder nearly as much as an overhand motion, which is an unnatural motion. Elite softball pitchers can pitch on a daily basis or sometimes even twice a day, whereas an elite baseball pitcher requires a longer recovery time.

At that age, I'd suggest a back-and-through motion rather than a windmill motion just because it's easier to control. A windmill motion is used to gain speed on the pitch, but its effect is very small at that age. Control is much more important. The extra revolution to do a windmill motion can always be added in a year or two.

[evil homer]

i coach my 9 year old son's little league team, and help out with his travel team (well, really a local team that plays a local schedule, but we do travel to neighboring states for tournaments over the summer). in the little league, a rule was instituted that the dugout can chant and cheer, but must stop when the pitcher is going into his windup. myself and the other coaches hate listening to the chants anyway, so we even ask the kids to stop and just concentrate on the game. the kids doing the chanting are usually the kids that aren't the best players, so i guess that's a way to keep themselves involved.
in the travel league, the players are much more serious and there are hardly any chants at all. just "let's go joe", "need a hit here", etc. these kids are also much better overall and they really concentrate on what is going on in the game.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

This year my Little League team can't hit (we have a batting average of .175) but yet we remain competitive as we've got some absolutely dominating pitchers (4 kids with a WHIP under 2).

This cracks me up.. I'm glad you have all the stats up to date.

[INDalltheway]

Dola

I think the creep..step..win is a good alternative to the other chatter you hear. As a former college infielder the sooner you teach them such things as the creep step and getting to the right ready position the better.

[RedHawk00]

Originally Posted by Balldog

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

this is what i was thinking... as a former pitcher, i have sent a message a time or two in my day. Once to the commish of the men's league

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by stevew

I think at some point I'd probably have to resort to throwing at the opposing teams players, more specifically the coaches son or daughter. If people want to act with zero class, it's your duty to try to go lower.

this...even if they aren't in the game

[evil homer]

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

[Travis]

Originally Posted by evil homer

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

There's really no hard fast rule (that I've ever subscribed to) as it would vary by the player. Obviously the creep/footwork aspect and being in proper defensive position is very important, but as far as where to start the play depends on the hitter, type of pitcher, players speed/arm strength/etc/etc. So long as you're teaching them proper setup and form, the positioning itself will vary depending on the situation.

That said, so long as they have the arm, starting deeper, especially at short, seems to be the norm. Let the 3B take anything they can get to underneath and hopefully starting deeper means they can get to more up the middle. If you're getting beat with a lot of short rollers the pitcher/3B can't get to in time, then bring your SS in and really emphasize the proper ready position for when the ball is hit to help protect them.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by evil homer

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

We used your approach with infielders because with the creep step movement you are in a better position to charge the ball and would likely get to the ball before somebody who is playing shallower and standing still. The whole point of the creep step is to teach the kids to be aggressive and go get the ball instead of sitting back on your heals and letting it play you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

This cracks me up.. I'm glad you have all the stats up to date.

Somewhere in a box around here, I still have pretty complete stats for every game I played between the ages of 6 & 10. I've also still got somewhere on this hard drive complete hitting stats for every player from the season of coach pitch I did.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Actually, pitching a softball is MUCH less stressful on the arm than pitching a baseball. Underhand is a natural motion that doesn't stress the shoulder nearly as much as an overhand motion, which is an unnatural motion. Elite softball pitchers can pitch on a daily basis or sometimes even twice a day, whereas an elite baseball pitcher requires a longer recovery time.

UMass just lost to Washington in 15-innings in the 2nd game of the super regional doubleheader. UMass' pitcher threw 243 pitches, and UW's threw 251 in game 2 alone. Both pitchers had also thrown game 1 of the day, bringing the single-day totals to 358 and 399 pitches respectively. I wouldn't worry about blowing out a rotator cuff or anything.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

UMass just lost to Washington in 15-innings in the 2nd game of the super regional doubleheader. UMass' pitcher threw 243 pitches, and UW's threw 251 in game 2 alone. Both pitchers had also thrown game 1 of the day, bringing the single-day totals to 358 and 399 pitches respectively. I wouldn't worry about blowing out a rotator cuff or anything.

Yeah, that kind of thing is relatively common. If a softball pitcher injures themselves, it's usually an injured body trunk muscle or an ankle injury on the plant foot. Those two areas are more stressed than the shoulder. Shoulder injuries to pitchers in softball are pretty rare.

[hhiipp]

So the solution is if there is a runner on 3rd and the batter has a 3-0 or 3-1 count hit the batter to cause a deadball situation and said batter only gets one base.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

(can't tell you how frustrating it is when you have a catcher who can't catch at the young ages)

You think it's frustrating?

Try umpiring three games in one day behind the plate during a summer tournament with kids young enough that the catcher can't catch.

Or worse, won't TRY to catch. The ones who try to make the play but can't, hey - they're kids. They'll get better. The ones who just sit there and wait for it to hit me or the backstop before they so much as bat an eyelash drive me up the wall.

[Barkeep49]

Yeah Sack I agree you've got it worse. I umpired as a teen (and will do so again if I can ever find time to take the test) and so I have a great deal of empathy for you.

[Ksyrup]

So the postscript to the weekend is that this wasn't as big an issue as we thought it might be, but the occasional girl who kept teasing down the line (or even off of 2nd) unnecessarily slowed the game down. But we got killed either way. First games at this level, so it was to be expected. Got to get them to catch up to the speed of the pitching, because we couldn't hit at all. Defense was probably better than expected. And of course, the pitching was rough. Ironically, the other teams saw so much fast pitching that our slowest pitcher had the most success all weekend. they kept getting out in front and popping up.

We've got about a month until the next tournament (which we'll be missing because of vacation) and a ton to work on. They still had fun, which is of course the most important thing. I don't remember having fun losing 15-0 and 20-1. I guess that's girls for you...!