Jeff Nelson back to the Yankees!

[Triple G]

Jeff Nelson back to the Yankees for Armando Benitez & Cash.. All The Yankees need now is Mike Stanton. :-)

Good trade? Bad Trade?

-Triple G

[bigdawg2003]

Good or bad i don't know, but I think it's pretty hilarious that the Yanks gave up on Benitez after less than a month.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by bigdawg2003
Good or bad i don't know, but I think it's pretty hilarious that the Yanks gave up on Benitez after less than a month.

Well, they could have given Benitez some more time, but Torre was always nervous when Benitez was pitching and I don't think he would ever trust using him in the late innings of the postseason

At least the Yankees should be able to get some solid outings out of Nelson. Both are free-agents at the end of the year so I doubt either would resign especially with Karsay coming back next season.

I really don't know what the M's were thinking. Benitez has always been horrible in big situations and they just got him from a team they could face in the postseason.

[sterlingice]

SEATTLE (AP) -- The Seattle Mariners traded reliever Jeff Nelson to the New York Yankees on Wednesday for right-hander Armando Benitez and cash.

Nelson criticized the Mariners' front office last week after the team failed to make a major deal at the trade deadline.

I love the first part of the AP story. They make it sound like the Mariners are saying "See! We made a trade! Happy now, bitch?"

SI

[clintl]

Any trade that dumps Armando Benitez on another team is good for the team doing the dumping, and bad for the team getting dumped on.

[dawgfan]

Sounds like they were basically forced to make a trade - the Yankees floated Benitez on waivers and the M's put in a claim, and the M's floated Nelson on waivers and the Yankees made a claim, so their only option was to make a deal with each other.

Regardless of intent, i.e. whether or not Nelson's tirade after the trade deadline prompted this move, the perception will be that it did, and I wonder what kind of effect that will have on the Mariner clubhouse with other players.

As for the performance impact, I think Benitez is getting a bad rap. The man has pitched very well over his career. He's struggled a bit this year in comparison to previous years, but he's still very good. As Gillick pointed out, Benitez is much better against lefties than Nelson, actually generating slightly better numbers vs. lefties over the last 3 seasons than against righties. If Benitez is right, there are very few guys in the majors with better stuff out of the bullpen. The M's won't need him to close - they've got Kaz Sasaki returning to hopefully reclaim that role, and if he's not up to snuff Hasegawa was perfect in the role going 8/8 in save situations and sporting a 0.68 ERA and 0.93 WHIP, so all the M's need from Benitez is to fill a setup role with Rhodes.

Nelson on the other hand is showing some signs of slipping - his control has always been iffy with the big bending slider, and his fastball is losing a little steam. He's death on right-handers if he's on, but he's mortal against lefties. He fared worse this season filling in as a closer than Benitez did for the Mets.

They're both free agents at the end of the season, but if the M's do elect to resign Benitez he's 6 years younger than Nelson. If not they'll take the draft pick compensation.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Sounds like they were basically forced to make a trade - the Yankees floated Benitez on waivers and the M's put in a claim, and the M's floated Nelson on waivers and the Yankees made a claim, so their only option was to make a deal with each other.

I'm sure they were revocable waivers. They didn't have to make a trade, they just found out that there was interest on both sides. Odd that noone else claimed either of these players, if only to block the trade.

[SackAttack]

C'mon, now, if you're the A's chasing the M's for the AL West title, or the Royals/White Sox chasing the Wild Card, would YOU get in the way of Seattle acquiring Benitez? That can only *help* their postseason chances, I should think.

Nelson, OTOH, yeah. That's a surprise, other than his age and salary.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by SackAttack
C'mon, now, if you're the A's chasing the M's for the AL West title, or the Royals/White Sox chasing the Wild Card, would YOU get in the way of Seattle acquiring Benitez? That can only *help* their postseason chances, I should think.

Nelson, OTOH, yeah. That's a surprise, other than his age and salary.

The Royals and White Sox aren't chasing the wild card. They would be interested in either for the help. Boston would be the team that I would think would at least put in a claim on Nelson, it wasn't like Seattle was going to let him go for nothing.

[sony]

Just like the old days. Nelson is back on the Yankees.

and

Benitez and A. Rhodes are teammates once again.

I think Benitez and Rhodes were teammates in Baltimore. The year when Brady Anderson hit 50 HR's I think.

I used to always get Rhodes and Benitez mixed up.

[dawgfan]

I'm not understanding the digs at Benitez. Yeah, the guy had a few high-profile failures in the playoffs a while back, but up until last season there was this guy named Bonds who hadn't done so well in the post-season either...

Benitez has converted 85% of his save opportunities over his career, has a career WHIP of around 1.20 and an ERA of 3.03, has been better with runners on base than bases empty over the last 3 seasons, is even better against lefties than against righties in the same span (and he's been very good against righties). Yes, he struggled somewhat this season with the Mets, but that could be due to any number of things - bad luck, poor defense, mental issues, health issues. Assuming he's basically healthy and isn't a complete head case with these trades, he should be at least as effective as Nelson was. Given that he'll be pitching half his games in Safeco, his problems with the gopherball should be reduced.

I think it's a pretty good trade for the M's, no worse than an even deal.

[jetpunk2000]

I'm not understanding the digs at Benitez. Yeah, the guy had a few high-profile failures in the playoffs a while back, but up until last season there was this guy named Bonds who hadn't done so well in the post-season either...

Ok, check back with us when Benitez enrages you by walking Eric Chavez and giving up the go ahead 2 run homer to Miguel Tejada. All the Benitez lovers here always pointed to his stats. Are his stats good? Yea. But that doesn't make up for giving up game winning homers in back to back games against the Braves in '01 when the Mets were crawling their way back into the race. That doesn't make up for blowing game 1 of the 2000 World Series, or the blown save against the Giants in that same year. Or the 4 blown saves in the first 7 games this year...or the blown saves against the Yankees this year...or...I can go on. Trust me. In a non pressure situations he's pretty good. But would I trust him with the ball during a 1-1 tie in game 7 of the ALCS? Hell no. And to compare Benitez to Bonds is totally off base. Sure Bonds' post season resume was subpar, but I doubt it was due to a lack of self confidence. Watch Mando after blowing his next game. He'll sulk and sulk til you want to wring his neck.

[dawgfan]

He must be doing something right to accrue those good to great stats though. Maybe he does it all in non-pressure situations.

Or,

Maybe he had a few high-profile failures that grabbed fans' attention and made them think he wasn't any good. Thus, any subsequent time he failed it reinforced their opinion, and any time he succeeded they ignored it or blew it off as "non-pressure".

My comparison to Bonds isn't to suggest that he's in Bonds' class, merely that until last season, people tended to think of Bonds as not being a 'clutch' player because he hadn't done that well in the post season. Never mind that it's a very small sample statistically - the perception was there. To a certain extent I think the same thing is true of Benitez - in a very limited sample set (the Mets post-season run a few years ago) he had some highly visible failures, and thus an image was born, reinforced every time he failed thereafter, regardless of all the other times he was successful.

Most people in baseball look at Kazu Sasaki's record as a closer for the M's and see someone who's been in the top-5 of most effective closers since he joined the M's, but many fans in Seattle are scared of him because they remember the few times he's blown saves and all the times he hasn't gone 1-2-3 in the 9th to get a save. Perhaps M's fans are too close to the situation and can't see the forest for the trees. And in the same way, perhaps New York baseball fans are guilty of the same thing with Benitez.

I'm not saying that Benitez isn't going to blow some games or that he's a great big-game pitcher - I don't really know - but I do know looking at his track record that he's had an awful lot of success in the past, so he's done something right.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
That doesn't make up for blowing game 1 of the 2000 World Series, or the blown save against the Giants in that same year.

In defense of Benitez in Game 1 of the 2000 WS. If Timo Perez ran the bases none of that ever would have happened.

[Ksyrup]

Hell, if it wasn't for Jeffrey Meyer, Benitez might have been the second coming of Rivera. From that moment on, he seemed to have a knack for blowing it in the playoffs. Ironic, considering the Meyer incident wasn't his fault.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by sony
Just like the old days. Nelson is back on the Yankees.

and

Benitez and A. Rhodes are teammates once again.

I think Benitez and Rhodes were teammates in Baltimore. The year when Brady Anderson hit 50 HR's I think.

I used to always get Rhodes and Benitez mixed up.

I always got Rhodes and Alan Mills mixed up.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by cuervo72
I always got Rhodes and Alan Mills mixed up.

Yep, those two were interchangeable, although Rhodes was slightly better, even back then. They both walked too many guys to be really effective.

Now,of course, they are easy to tell apart. Rhodes is the one with a job.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Triple G
Well, they could have given Benitez some more time, but Torre was always nervous when Benitez was pitching and I don't think he would ever trust using him in the late innings of the postseason

Suddenly this is news to the Yankees? All of the sudden they just discovered this wasn't a guy to trust in the clutch despite the fact most every fan and sportswriter has been bagging on this guy for year?

Could it be Steinbrenner has gotten even more compulsive? Too bad the trading deadline is passed. I think the Phillies could have sold them a sweet deal on Jose Mesa.

[Alan T]

Benitez's failures primarily have been so overstated because of who he has played for. He probably is much better than alot of the closers that teams employee these days. Just every time he implodes, it catches national news it seems.

With that said, I of course feel that a closer's role is overstated itself anyhows, often it seems closers with high save % do it with many 3 run saves.


Oh and shouldn't the league commish turn down this trade? I hear a player being traded twice within a month is unrealistic.. or so my ootp leagues say

[Ksyrup]

Benitez's most prominent failures have caught national news because they occurred during the playoffs. It certainly didn't help that he played on the east coast, and in NY especially, but BY Kim's failures for Arizona were widely discussed, and he's only lived them down because (1) they appear to be a fluke; and (2) Arizona won the WS that year.

[Alan T]

I would disagree with the statement that Kim has lived them down.. Every day I hear on the Radio and TV where people do not think Kim is a good choice for Boston since he can't pitch against the Yankees (or that is their attempted point).. thus it was a waste to get him..

if that is not going around nationally, it probably is because of the different media markets I guess. But all of the nutballs up here are convinced that Kim as closer will mean that Boston will lose.

They are much more focused on that than the real problems boston has now.. the fact they don't have any reliable starting pitchers after Pedro this year.

[Ksyrup]

I haven't heard squat about Kim's failures since the Spring Training afterward, and maybe, if they played the Yankees in interleague, some thing then. Otherwise, I haven't heard, on a national basis, anyone questioning the trade. Must be a Red Sox Nation-only thing.

[Alan T]

I think your example is exactly what I was refering to though. Kim and Benitez both have similar history of performance (Kim's in a shorter time). Kim has been brutal in the postseason for the most part, Benitez has been adequate in the postseason for the most part. The timing of some of Benitez' blow ups and where he played is what caused such a huge fuss about his blown saves. This year is actually his worst season as far as saving games goes.

[Ksyrup]

Well....Benitez's blow-ups are not limited to one post-season series, like Kim's are. He blew games for 2 different teams in the post-season, over the course of several years. I don't really see much similarity.

Now, if Kim blows up this year (assuming your Sox get in!), then maybe his "clutch" ability will get called into question by more than just the Red Sox Nation. At this point, I see those couple of games vs. the Yankees as flukes. Benitez has demonstrated the ability to blow some big games time and time again.

[Alan T]

I think what alot of people are pointing to with Kim though is that its not just that one series. It apparently is every time he faces the Yankees people become fearful.

This year's stats vs the Yankees for instance, he has faced New York 5 times (more than any other team except Toronto which is also 5).

in 5 games, he is 1-2 with 1 save. He came in 3 tied game situations and 2 save opportunities. He is 1 for 2 in Save opportunities and lost 1 of the other tied games. His only save was in a 3 run save opportunitity in which he still let a run score there too.

I geuss my point is not that Benitez is great.. I don't think he is that talented of a pitcher compared to some (For instance, I think there are easily two guys in the Astros bullpen as talented as Benitez if not more). I just think his failures have been overplayed some because as you say it some are in high profile situations, and also because of where he played.

When you used Kim as an example above of someone who has not received as much criticism, I think that example was better than you had initially thought in comparison, since he is getting alot of bad press (many people saying Williamson should be closer instead for instance), and people are convinced that he can not pitch vs the Yankees (which so far statistically, their point might be supported I suppose).

I think Kim's sample size is too small to fully agree with the Kim bashers, but if benitez was in a different town than the Mets I think he would have likely still been bashed locally, just not to the national level that he was.

[Leonidas]

Whether Benitez's failures are overstated or not is almost irrelevant. The fact is the Yankees a few weeks ago thought he was the answer to something they needed. They got him and quickly decided he wasn't so they sent him away. What happened between then and now that they didn't already know about? Or is this just an example of Georgie having a really big brain fart? And why in the hell did they let go of Nelson in the first place? He was always solid for them.

[Ryan S]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Or is this just an example of Georgie having a really big brain fart?

Acquiring Benitez did not strike me as a Steinbrenner move. I would have thought that Steinbrenner would hate the idea of picking up Benitez, given the history.

[dawgfan]

Nelson left the Yankees as a free agent and had a strong interest to return home to the Mariners since he lived in Issaquah in the offseason. Given the lack of World Series appearances by the M's, most expect him to re-sign with the Yankees at the end of this season (assuming the Yankees want to keep him).

The Yankees have been trying since before the July 31st deadline to pry Nelson away from the Mariners, but their offers weren't good enough to the M's at the time. The fact they relented and shipped Benitez to get Nelson doesn't necessarily mean that the team learned something negative about him in the last 10 days, but could just be they finally decided they wanted Nelson more than Benitez. This could well be a good move for the Yankees. With Rivera, they didn't need a 2nd closer - they needed a right-handed setup guy to get to Rivera. Nelson's slider is still wicked, and he's done very well in the post-season in the past which helps his standing with the Yankees. For the Mariners, with Sasaki's uncertainty and lack of a 2nd lefty in the pen to go with Rhodes, they liked Benitez for his ability to get lefties out and his experience as a closer (even with his notable failures, he's done better than Nelson has in limited stints in the role).

We'll see how this plays out - if the M's make the playoffs and Benitez blows some games I'll be right there with the New Yorkers in cursing his name.