40-year old coach weds 16-year old girl

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

It would be really awesome if people associated with Perverted Justice came around FOFC once in awhile.

Whatever happened to that show they used to run? Used to love watching it. I never figured out what was creepier, the guys that showed up at the door or the guys that pretended to be 12 year old girls all day.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think what Axxon is saying is that it isn't taboo, or at least shouldn't be. There have been a lot of groups who have advocated this such as PIE and NAMBLA. They believe that not only are the relationships natural, but beneficial to both parties involved.

I can simply believe you completely misread what I wrote but that's not what happened is it? You have no arguments so you try to character assassinate the person you're debating. You're not worth my time you dishonest troll. I won't feed you anymore.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I can simply believe you completely misread what I wrote but that's not what happened is it? You have no arguments so you try to character assassinate the person you're debating. You're not worth my time you dishonest troll. I won't feed you anymore.

What are you talking about? You made a large post stating that we should make exceptions for middle aged men dating children. Your words were to "throw off society's frowns, evaluate each situation on a case by case basis".

My argument is that middle aged men should not be dating children. Your argument is that it should be done on a case-by-case basis. I'm sorry if you don't like the comparisions to groups like NAMBLA and PIE, but those are their precise views. I'm not ostracizing those views, just saying I don't believe them myself.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But I didn't start with that assumption at all. A year of being married and her on an upward educational path is what made me speculate that it may not be as harmful as everyone thought.

He knows he's being scrutinized. And raising two kids when he's effectively raising one, is probably not something he's inclined to do.

I don't think we're talking altruism here. And the fact that she's going to some local community college, when she clearly has the chops to go to a four-year school, shows me that he's just stunting her growth, when he ought to be pushing her.

Not my life, not my relationship or anything. But...I've given the same advice to someone I know who married someone about 11 years younger who was college-aged at the time.

[SportsDino]

Well I guess we could keep throwing out real world examples.

My second girlfriend (ex) had a relationship with a teacher. They loved each other all fine and dandy, did a good job hiding blowjobs from her parents, and everything was fine until he decided to marry another teacher he was seeing around his own age.

A few years later I show up, and she was still messed up in the head. If education is your metric, this girl was crazy smart, she knows maths that blows me mind and I'm almost mad scientist smart. She'll waltz through post-graduate education and still probably carry scars from that dude.

So I think its cases like that which lead people to consider the situation taboo. I might be a close-minded jerk of a person, but if I had to put betting odds on it the track coach was perving, got caught, and managed to weasel out a solution that so far hasn't blown up (and may just work out fine for all we know). The girl is smart (although that is no barrier to emotional manipulation let me tell you), so she'll probably get her education no matter what you put in front of her. If they are still compatible when she hits 25 they'll probably do all right, but I tend to believe most women don't know shit about anything until they are past that age... she could change completely and find him a loser at that point, very probable especially if she is smart/ambitious and more modern than the old days where most women were thinking marraige instead of masters as a life path.

[SFL Cat]

And most guys don't know shit until their 30s.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Axxon: My point is that, if you grant the taboo is valid, it is reasonable to start with the assumption that any specific case is wrong and harmful, and look for evidence that it isn't, rather than start with the assumption that a specific case is fine and dandy. If your assumptions start the other way around (looking for evidence that the girl in the case is harmed), you are essentially throwing away the taboo. I don't have any special insight into this case, so until somebody persuades me otherwise, I'll just assume this guy is a creepy tool - I think that's more reasonable than any alternative.

Originally Posted by Axxon

But I didn't start with that assumption at all. A year of being married and her on an upward educational path is what made me speculate that it may not be as harmful as everyone thought.

SCWhat you just stated is the primary problem with this country today, assumption of guilt. Look at the way society has turned in on itself in recent years. You honestly believe that's a GOOD sign? I am a cynic, jaded as the worlkd can make someone at one point but learning optimism in slow bursts. The very idea that we SHOULD assume the worst first of another human being sickens me. It is just this type of attitude and reactionary crap that destroys good people when unproven rumours are spread about them. Its totally backword from where we should be.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think what Axxon is saying is that it isn't taboo, or at least shouldn't be. There have been a lot of groups who have advocated this such as PIE and NAMBLA. They believe that not only are the relationships natural, but beneficial to both parties involved.

No this is what you want axxons statement to say, its completely wrong if you actually try reading to comprehend what is writen instead of trying to twist it to make your unsupported arguments look better.


I'm really beyond the original argument at this point. My biggest complaint is that without any evidence of actual wrongdoing (aka no proof of sexual activity, no arrest, no charges, NOTHING) RM is more than happy to libel another human being based on how he personally feels about the situation, and what he assumes is the fact instead of basing his response on anything tangible.


We may not LIKE some tihngs that happen in this world. We may despise the very idea of some things that happen in this world.

That doesn't make us any more right if we make vicious and malicious statements without support. You're welcome to your opinion RM, but spouting off as you have here with no basis in fact for your statements just makes you look like a douchebag. If you can't accept that there are exceptions and that your kneejerk reaction is uncalled for without VALID supporting evidence, then god help you.


I know a man who met his wife when she was 16, they were friends and talked regularly online. When she was 17 and he 27 she confessed that she loved him and she wanted to be with him. When she turned 18 she took a train and visited him. They've been together since and got married after a few years and now have a house and 2 beautiful children.

I'm betting you'd call this guy a predator too eh?

[SportsDino]

Most certainly SFL Cat, I've got about four years to go. I might be biased because I'm currently dating a woman older than myself (33 to my 26.5) as opposed to my past sample (2-4 years younger than me, starting late at 22 so no I'm not an ebo-whatever).

In the earlier relationships the maturity gap was frustrating, I don't think anyone, male or female, has probably experienced enough to have a good feel of themself by 25. You go through so many potential career paths, lifestyle decisions, places that you live, schools you go to, people you meet and leave... with all that flux I think it is fair to say a 16 year old girl could want entirely different things out of her life by the time she is 25.

Being with a lady who is past that stage, ya there is still are sorts of variability that can happen, but her reactions to those events seem to be more mature and predictable... and she's smart enough to let me know when I'm being an impulsive little boy (wish I had her proofread before I spout off on here, but then how could I make misogynist statements and blather inanely about the economy?!).

[SportsDino]

I apologize for making assumptions about the track coach's actions. We can't always overfit to the examples that we know about.

Maybe we should steer this towards a discussion of age of consent laws and why they [should/should not] exist? None of us want young kids to be manipulated into predatory relationships, or for healthy relationships (albeit out of the norm perhaps) to be falsely accused. Where should the law and parents draw the line?

IMHO you need to have parental oversight and discipline over relationships between kids and adults, to protect both sides. For instance, children should know to avoid situations that leave them alone with adults they don't know, but what about adults they do know and trust? (which happen to be the most common perpetrators of molestation)

At first its just a ride home from practice. When does it turn into text messages? or crushes (the girl had to at least have a crush to explain her statements/actions)? or sex? (!beware warrantless supposition but consider the hypothetical case!)

How do parents stem those situations from resulting? How do they detect the difference between a 'good neighbor' and a predator? These are important things to know, I certainly would like some answers before I have kids. My current theory for raising children [which I don't have] seems to involve fortifications, cannons, and laser-armed heat-seaking chastity belts, so I could use some tips for how to lighten up a bit! Without of course letting my kid be traumatized for life (by a predator or my insane defense network).

[RendeR]

I agree with pretty much your whole post SD. I stated earlier in the thread that I blame the coach and the parents for this whole situation. The parents needed to be more involved in her life so that they might have seen this coming. The coach should have had the personal fortitude to tell her to wait until she graduated at the very least.

But the vitriol that some were spouting just threw the entire conversation into the shitter.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

Most certainly SFL Cat, I've got about four years to go. I might be biased because I'm currently dating a woman older than myself (33 to my 26.5) as opposed to my past sample (2-4 years younger than me, starting late at 22 so no I'm not an ebo-whatever).

In the earlier relationships the maturity gap was frustrating, I don't think anyone, male or female, has probably experienced enough to have a good feel of themself by 25. You go through so many potential career paths, lifestyle decisions, places that you live, schools you go to, people you meet and leave... with all that flux I think it is fair to say a 16 year old girl could want entirely different things out of her life by the time she is 25.

Being with a lady who is past that stage, ya there is still are sorts of variability that can happen, but her reactions to those events seem to be more mature and predictable... and she's smart enough to let me know when I'm being an impulsive little boy (wish I had her proofread before I spout off on here, but then how could I make misogynist statements and blather inanely about the economy?!).

How is your relationship viewed by others? What if you had even more of an age gap of three or four years?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

He knows he's being scrutinized. And raising two kids when he's effectively raising one, is probably not something he's inclined to do.

I don't think we're talking altruism here. And the fact that she's going to some local community college, when she clearly has the chops to go to a four-year school, shows me that he's just stunting her growth, when he ought to be pushing her.

Not my life, not my relationship or anything. But...I've given the same advice to someone I know who married someone about 11 years younger who was college-aged at the time.

Well, glad someone else on the board knows everyone's deep hidden agendas. Damned if I could do it. Must be nice to be that knowledgeable.

I can understand the part about the college but again, we don't know all the facts. Maybe they can't afford a 4 year. Maybe they are like thousands of people who spend less money getting the core studies out of the way at a much cheaper community college and then transferring to a university. I've known people who do that and really, unless you're scholarship, what's the point of spending more for the same credits if you don't need to?

That's why I can't disagree or agree with you on that one. I haven't got enough information to give you an answer.

Oh, and on review, and I may just be missing it. I just got home and am tired but what was the first paragraph about? I don't know about any kids in the situation. Maybe you're counting her as one but who is the other one?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No this is what you want axxons statement to say, its completely wrong if you actually try reading to comprehend what is writen instead of trying to twist it to make your unsupported arguments look better.

How about reading his words? He stated that their should be exceptions for middle aged men dating children. He said it should be treated on a case-by-case basis. There is no way to twist those words, that is what he said.

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm really beyond the original argument at this point. My biggest complaint is that without any evidence of actual wrongdoing (aka no proof of sexual activity, no arrest, no charges, NOTHING) RM is more than happy to libel another human being based on how he personally feels about the situation, and what he assumes is the fact instead of basing his response on anything tangible.

I consider a middle aged man dating a child to be wrong. Sex or no sex, I consider him a predator of one sort or another. It's my opinion, just as it's my opinion that sex was probably involved in the equation. I'm allowed opinions and assumptions. I assume OJ is the murderer and I assume that a grown man who meets a child on the internet and shows up with condoms and beer is probably interested in sex.

Originally Posted by RendeR

That doesn't make us any more right if we make vicious and malicious statements without support. You're welcome to your opinion RM, but spouting off as you have here with no basis in fact for your statements just makes you look like a douchebag. If you can't accept that there are exceptions and that your kneejerk reaction is uncalled for without VALID supporting evidence, then god help you.

I don't believe there are exceptions when it involves children. A young teenagers brain is not fully developed. They still use the parts of their brains that children use for making decisions. Matching them up with an adult of that age is unfair to the child.

Originally Posted by RendeR

I know a man who met his wife when she was 16, they were friends and talked regularly online. When she was 17 and he 27 she confessed that she loved him and she wanted to be with him. When she turned 18 she took a train and visited him. They've been together since and got married after a few years and now have a house and 2 beautiful children.

I'm betting you'd call this guy a predator too eh?

It's not my position to call him a predator. Most states in this country would call him a sexual predator based on their laws. You'd have to take it up with them.


In the end, I guarantee if a 40 year old man came to your door looking to take out your 14 year old daughter, you wouldn't be looking to see if he was an "exception".

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

So I think its cases like that which lead people to consider the situation taboo. I might be a close-minded jerk of a person, but if I had to put betting odds on it the track coach was perving, got caught, and managed to weasel out a solution that so far hasn't blown up (and may just work out fine for all we know). The girl is smart (although that is no barrier to emotional manipulation let me tell you), so she'll probably get her education no matter what you put in front of her. If they are still compatible when she hits 25 they'll probably do all right, but I tend to believe most women don't know shit about anything until they are past that age... she could change completely and find him a loser at that point, very probable especially if she is smart/ambitious and more modern than the old days where most women were thinking marraige instead of masters as a life path.

Great thoughts.
I don't think it's cases like these that cause the taboo. I honestly think it's good intentions and the way we're always inundated with the need to be safe. We need to be safe and protect our families.

I'm not particulary upset with how anything in the article went down in regards to the taboo. The parents had an issue. It was investigated. No laws were broken. No one was persecuted. That's how it's supposed to work.

Now, if the school hid information or something, that's another issue but that's not been alleged.

One last thing, even if they split up later it doesn't necessarily mean he harmed her or ruined her life or anything. People move on. People of all ages, in all kinds of relationships. That's just life. Could be that he screwed her up, maybe not. We won't know until it happens.

Second last thing, on the perving situation I'll give you that, the getting caught but the last part makes no sense. Why weasel out of anything? There were no charges, sge wasn't pregnant, nothing really to weasel out of. He married her because he wanted more of her and he got it. I'm not judginjg why he wanted her but weaseling out of a situation seems highly unlikely as a motive. He just tied himself to the situation even more with that.

[SportsDino]

Well data is still limited, only been about 3 months after I was in a relationship for 3 years with a lady 2 years younger than me (break up at 26 she was 24).

I do know I got crap for my first gf (Me = 22 on the button, Her = 18.5+, largest gap). I also know it pretty much ended up as crap, a freshman girl in college probably is expecting to go through a lot of guys by the time they hit 22. Complete maturity level mismatch, and the few interactions around other people were basically 'what do you see in that kid?' (other than the 'but boy is she hot' statements).

I have not gotten too much flak yet with my current relationship (She = 33, Me = 26.5 so 6.5 year gap). Haven't gone through the meet the parents stress test though. I've gotten a 'boytoy' like joke from some of her friends once or twice, but even that died down, and I've always gotten along with people older than me fairly well (and often better than my own age).
As for my friends, the group I hang with stretches from 25-35 anyway so the 'not being a nerd' factor comes up but age hasn't really. She looks young for her age too, so that might be a factor.

I can't honestly say whether I would be attracted if the gap was 10 years or 15 rather than 6. A lot of the things that attract me I thought at first would be less likely as a person got older, like a sense of playfulness or silliness (I'm a giant kid myself). I've found that assumption to be wrong, I guess that is part of maturing... but at the same time I don't know far things could stretch. I mean, I don't think I could handle being 30 and having a wife at 45. I'd probably be thinking kids and she would probably already have teenagers... but then again if my heart somehow was there I'm sure my brain would find a way to envision it.

I know enough that a gap alone should be no reason to attack a relationship, or predict its success or failure. I just think the 20 or 25 year gaps should be between 20-40 relationships instead of 16-36... those four years make a lot of difference not just in a legal sense, but in the level of confidence the younger person has in themself. Teenagers are just too close to that period where they are seeking approval from others, rather than driving themselves according to a self-image. They're prone to manipulation at worst, and at least some disappointments (which are inevitable, and often occur with fellow 16 year olds).

Also I really hate the intermix of authority figures in these situations, that whole looking for approval from parents thing is easily transferred to teachers/coaches. Heck, I'm sure at some point we've all had a teacher at some point that we cared more about making them proud of us than a parent (for instance, impressing an English professor with your writing that you would never even bother to throw in front of a parent because they wouldn't care). So in my own case, I distinctly remember doing good work to impress teachers in high school, whereas in college I did good work to impress myself... doesn't sound very different maybe but it actually is a world of difference in motivation, confidence, and psychology.

We don't have a tendency to look up to fellow kids in the same way we do as adults, so I think failures and manipulations at that level are a little bit fairer is all. That said, being emotionally crushed by a manipulative 16 year old boy may be on the same magnitude as being crushed by a teacher... so maybe we are just splitting hairs that don't matter in a practical sense. I do thing the misuse of authority is one of the factors behind the taboo though, although the legal side many of the laws seem to be clearly designed for reducing relationships between near peer age groups as well (for instance a 6 year gap is plenty illegal in most states, so I would be screwed if I was 16 at the moment).

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I apologize for making assumptions about the track coach's actions. We can't always overfit to the examples that we know about.

Maybe we should steer this towards a discussion of age of consent laws and why they [should/should not] exist? None of us want young kids to be manipulated into predatory relationships, or for healthy relationships (albeit out of the norm perhaps) to be falsely accused. Where should the law and parents draw the line?

IMHO you need to have parental oversight and discipline over relationships between kids and adults, to protect both sides. For instance, children should know to avoid situations that leave them alone with adults they don't know, but what about adults they do know and trust? (which happen to be the most common perpetrators of molestation)

At first its just a ride home from practice. When does it turn into text messages? or crushes (the girl had to at least have a crush to explain her statements/actions)? or sex? (!beware warrantless supposition but consider the hypothetical case!)

How do parents stem those situations from resulting? How do they detect the difference between a 'good neighbor' and a predator? These are important things to know, I certainly would like some answers before I have kids. My current theory for raising children [which I don't have] seems to involve fortifications, cannons, and laser-armed heat-seaking chastity belts, so I could use some tips for how to lighten up a bit! Without of course letting my kid be traumatized for life (by a predator or my insane defense network).

Good questions. How do parents stem those situations? My answer is starting young have open and honest communication with your child on a daily basis. Whether you're too tired, too overworked, want to watch the game, screw that, your kids come first.

Don't use discipline as a weapon. Make sure that the worst part of any discipline is that they disappointed you not that you're going to punish them. My mom stopped me from making one of the worst decisions in my life with one simple sentence "Well, I hope I'll see you on christmas." and I knew at that moment I'd screwed up.

Make sure they really understand why you're punishing them. Not necessarily when it is happening but the sun shouldn't set on a confused kid. You're his guide to life not his warden. If you're not guiding, you're not helping.

Lead by example. Never punish a child for something they see you doing yourself. It just sends mixed messages and will cause your kids to disrespect you.

Get involved in your childs life. Take time to understand and participate in their interests. Engage them in conversations about it. Challenge them. Give them the tools to further those interests. Be a part of what they like.

Those are some starter tips.

I know these things are harder than sitting on your butt and watching American Gladiators but if you want to be a good parent, these things will serve you pretty well as a start.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I know enough that a gap alone should be no reason to attack a relationship, or predict its success or failure. I just think the 20 or 25 year gaps should be between 20-40 relationships instead of 16-36... those four years make a lot of difference not just in a legal sense, but in the level of confidence the younger person has in themself. Teenagers are just too close to that period where they are seeking approval from others, rather than driving themselves according to a self-image. They're prone to manipulation at worst, and at least some disappointments (which are inevitable, and often occur with fellow 16 year olds).

This part made me think of this. I've read that power and control is a motivating factor for the older person in a relationship and for the most part, I'm betting that has something to do with it but this is another thing.

Children that age are impressionable and looking for someone to guide them and if this guy is known among his age group as a dumb ass, he's probably going through life pretty frustrated and miserable.

Suddenly he meets someone who is more of a dumbass than him ( not that she will always be a dumbass like he is of course but it's the teenage condition for the most part ) and suddenly here's someone looking up to him. Asking him for advise, etc. He feels worthwhile. He's not necessarily interested in controlling her or anything but he feels accepted. Of course, down the road he may get controlling if he fears he'll lose her but that's another story entirely.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No this is what you want axxons statement to say, its completely wrong if you actually try reading to comprehend what is writen instead of trying to twist it to make your unsupported arguments look better.

Thanks for that btw RendeR. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm saying. I appreciate it.

[SportsDino]

I should have said 'weaseling INTO the position he wanted'. If the intent is to inflate his ebo he actually can hang the mission accomplished banner.

P.S. I'm so terribly punny, I should be shot.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Thanks for that btw RendeR. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm saying. I appreciate it.

You said we should make exceptions for certain cases when middle aged men date children. What part of that was not understood correctly?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I should have said 'weaseling INTO the position he wanted'. If the intent is to inflate his ebo he actually can hang the mission accomplished banner.

P.S. I'm so terribly punny, I should be shot.

I got a chuckle. I like puns.

You'd have scored a near perfect pun though if you'd worked it in the the other thread as she would indeed have a goal of inflating ( certain parts ) of her ebo.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I know enough that a gap alone should be no reason to attack a relationship, or predict its success or failure. I just think the 20 or 25 year gaps should be between 20-40 relationships instead of 16-36... those four years make a lot of difference not just in a legal sense, but in the level of confidence the younger person has in themself. Teenagers are just too close to that period where they are seeking approval from others, rather than driving themselves according to a self-image. They're prone to manipulation at worst, and at least some disappointments (which are inevitable, and often occur with fellow 16 year olds).

It's not just psychological but actually a major biological difference. Teenagers have underdeveloped prefrontal lobes. When you enter your late teens, early twenties, that fully develops and allows you to use it in your decision making. The frontal lobe handles judgement, planning, and organizational skills. It's what helps us in our decision on what risks to take.

They are simply not biologically equipped to handle an adult in this situation.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not my position to call him a predator.

See but this is exactly what you are doing. You're professing that your position is the one the laws take. There are no laws to consider in the example I gave you. None, because nothing illegal ever occurred. There was no illicit affair, there was no intent to "subvert a child". But because YOU think it should be you throw around words like "sexual predator" when in fact you don't know a damned thing.

This is the only point I'm trying to make. You're labeling someone as something that you cannot know is true, you can assume but in fact you might as well be saying he's a purple one eyed werewolf. Its just as valid as far as your concerned.. And on top of it you get upset when you get called on your ignorance.

No one is saying its a good idea, no one is saying it shouldn't be investigated thoroughly (which the current case was) we're simply stating that you cannot go around slandering (or in this case libeling) people based on your opinion alone. Get some facts about the specific case, not heresay, not what happened to someone else, but the case at hand, and then make your point. Don;t go off half cocked without a shred of evidence and make statements you can't back up.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Most states in this country would call him a sexual predator based on their laws. You'd have to take it up with them.

I don;t have to take it up with them, I'm not the one making the assumptions around here. You can go look if you want, but there isn't a state in this country that would have anything to charge that man with. But do go on making shit up as you go.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Oh, and on review, and I may just be missing it. I just got home and am tired but what was the first paragraph about? I don't know about any kids in the situation. Maybe you're counting her as one but who is the other one?

He's saying that the guy probably doesn't want to get her pregnant since then he'd be effectively raising two children on his own.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

See but this is exactly what you are doing. You're professing that your position is the one the laws take. There are no laws to consider in the example I gave you. None, because nothing illegal ever occurred. There was no illicit affair, there was no intent to "subvert a child". But because YOU think it should be you throw around words like "sexual predator" when in fact you don't know a damned thing.

This is the only point I'm trying to make. You're labeling someone as something that you cannot know is true, you can assume but in fact you might as well be saying he's a purple one eyed werewolf. Its just as valid as far as your concerned.. And on top of it you get upset when you get called on your ignorance.

No one is saying its a good idea, no one is saying it shouldn't be investigated thoroughly (which the current case was) we're simply stating that you cannot go around slandering (or in this case libeling) people based on your opinion alone. Get some facts about the specific case, not heresay, not what happened to someone else, but the case at hand, and then make your point. Don;t go off half cocked without a shred of evidence and make statements you can't back up.

I don;t have to take it up with them, I'm not the one making the assumptions around here. You can go look if you want, but there isn't a state in this country that would have anything to charge that man with. But do go on making shit up as you go.

If the person was having sex with a 16 year old, then yes, he would be a predator. If not, then he's just a loser.

Rape charges are often difficult to get, especially if the victim is under the person's control. We can look at the Catholic Church and the many Priests who have been involved in sex abuse scandals. Very few have ever been prosecuted for their crimes. Rape charges are rare and are usually only filed when the victim gets pregnant or has a falling out with the person and can provide evidence.

And drop the slander/libel crap. You don't know what the terms mean. A person's opinion is not defamation, especially when it falls under "fair comment of a public matter". It's my opinion that the guy is a perv who used his power to nab some underage tail.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I know a man who met his wife when she was 16, they were friends and talked regularly online. When she was 17 and he 27 she confessed that she loved him and she wanted to be with him. When she turned 18 she took a train and visited him. They've been together since and got married after a few years and now have a house and 2 beautiful children.

I'm betting you'd call this guy a predator too eh?

Pssst.. it was a bus, not a train.

[Raiders Army]

Read through this thread to see why it warranted four pages. Some interesting stuff in here. Clearly, I think everything should be judged on a case-by-case basis without assumption of facts.

That being said, there are relationships between people that are less "normal" than others. This situation probably falls within the middle of the spectrum where there are grey areas. Having a relationship with a picnic table is on the extreme end.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Telle

Pssst.. it was a bus, not a train.

*chuckles* yeah it was a bus, my bad. Its not that big of a slip though since I'm obviously a sexual predator and I had no other intention other than robbing you of your childhood, raping you physically and destroying any chance you had at a normal life.

I mean its OBVIOUS from the fact that we started to talk to one another as anonymous people on a message board. Its OBVIOUS that the only reason I was even ON that message board was to troll for teenagers to molest. I mean come on now. Its OBVIOUS.

RainMaker says I MUST be a sexual predator since I am so much older than my wife. Who am I or or anyone in a nearly 12 year relationship built on love, sacrifice, support and mutual trust and admiration to argue with RAINMAKERS OBVIOUSLY more well supported views on the world.

Is the point finally getting through RM? Can you at least admit that just because YOU think one way that it doesn't mean you're right or that anyone else is inherently wrong? You can have whatever opinions you want to, go for it, but if you're going to spout off vehemently around HERE then perhaps you should have a shred of evidence to back up your side of the discussion.

[Raiders Army]

I think RainMaker has a point to a certain extent. While in practice, I think we all believe what we think the world should be...but when it comes down to it if it happens to you, I think your beliefs may be a little different.

I met my wife and we started dating when she was 15 and I had just turned 18. I obviously didn't see anything wrong with it, but I think the chances were that we were not going to make it and I could've been looked at as a perv. I got her pregnant while she was still in high school. Fast forward to 2008 and we're happily married with three kids.

If I were on the outside looking in, I wouldn't have thought we would've stood a chance. If my daughter at age 15 were to date a 18 year old, I would invest in a good chastity belt. Maybe what I'm saying is that although I'd like to think that I'm open-minded enough to let my daughter date an older man, in practice I certainly wouldn't.

[RendeR]

But that is precisely why people that react like RM need to enlighten themselves a ibt. The virulent spewing of rhetoric that he posted in here may well be warrented, but not until PROOF is found.

Reactions like RM's if allowed to snowball turn into lynch mobs where truth is ignored for the common "view".

As I've said numerous times he may well be absolutely right, but until there is EVIDENCE of that his opinion is just as much flotsam as anyone elses and holds no merit at all. I'm not totally disagreeing with him to be honest, I think the guy was a moron for not backing off of the girl but the police found nothing to charge him with and the parents signed the consent forms.

As outsiders we might not like it but we ought to shut up and leave them alone too.

ahh well. It was a fun discussion.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I think RainMaker has a point to a certain extent. While in practice, I think we all believe what we think the world should be...but when it comes down to it if it happens to you, I think your beliefs may be a little different.

I met my wife and we started dating when she was 15 and I had just turned 18. I obviously didn't see anything wrong with it, but I think the chances were that we were not going to make it and I could've been looked at as a perv. I got her pregnant while she was still in high school. Fast forward to 2008 and we're happily married with three kids.

If I were on the outside looking in, I wouldn't have thought we would've stood a chance. If my daughter at age 15 were to date a 18 year old, I would invest in a good chastity belt. Maybe what I'm saying is that although I'd like to think that I'm open-minded enough to let my daughter date an older man, in practice I certainly wouldn't.

I don't think your situation is comparable to this one though. 18 and 15 isn't such a huge gap, especially considering women develop emotionally a little faster than men during that time. You're still young, have relatively similar life experiences and no one really has the power in the relationship.

What I don't think Axxon or RendeR are factoring in is brain development. No matter how mature we may think the girl is, how well it turns out, or what her beliefs are, she is still underdeveloped mentally. Her decisions are not being made with an adult mind. I think that's very dangerous and will alter her entire life. She was not given the opportunity to develop and find out who she really was.

I also think it's real dangerous to make exceptions based on how things turned out. Does that mean if a child is molested but ends up being a doctor, the Priest should have the charges dropped? It's also impossible to determine what a good outcome is. While some are saying this is working out for her, who is to say this girl couldn't have made it to a major college and become a doctor or something? She's working at a grocery store and going to a community college.

In any event, I apologize if anyone has taken my comments as personal attacks on them. I think it's a good discussion.

[RedKingGold]

Doesn't it always seem that threads like this end up becoming about RendeR and his life choices?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Doesn't it always seem that threads like this end up becoming about RendeR and his life choices?

HAAARRRRRRR, I think ye be right, matey!

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Doesn't it always seem that threads like this end up becoming about RendeR and his life choices?

Only when such discussions relate to something in my life. Is it my fault that I've lived a full and varied life? Is it wrong that I share my experiences in life? Sorry it bothers you so. You can feel free not to follow along.

[kcchief19]

I'm going to try and tackle a larger question here and hope that it doesn't get lost. That said, I think it's important to draw a distinction between what is illegal vs. what is inappropriate. Clearly the evidence in this case suggests that the relationship wasn't illegal, simply inappropriate. Personally, I'd argue that it wasn't inappropriate because of the ages but because school employees (teachers/coaches) shouldn't date their students.

But it happens. It happens a lot. We hear about the sensational cases when their is a pregnancy or the teacher is hot. I'd imagine that it happens hundreds if not thousands of times per year. I would imagine there are plenty of cases when it is not caught and others when it is not proven or is dealt with off the record. I have personal knowledge of each of those three cases.

Why does it happen? First, this just in ... high school kids have hormones. Plus, high school kids frequently develop crushes on their teachers. I would be willing to bet money that in 90% of the cases where teachers and students have relationships, the student is the one who initiates it. I would be willing to suppose that frequently there extenuating circumstances that spark the relationship: maybe the student has a problem with school or home and the teacher is helping; coach-type relationships are another, whether it's track, cheerleading, debate, newspaper/yearbook, etc.; or work-type relationships where the teacher and student spend more time together or one-one-one time together.

You can make all the laws you want to regulate personal behavior but you cannot change the laws of nature. As it has been said, biology trumps virtue. One you have two post-pubescent people with sexual attraction and urges, it is unrealistic to believe that an arbitrary age cutoff will control those urges. If two people of a certain biological development are attracted to each other, that's not exactly something you can legislate to stop. It's unreasonably to believe that puritanical view of romantic relationship can somehow be enforced. The age of consent is an arbitrary line.

I'll admit that I had a crush on a high school teacher. She was young so she was really only about eight years older than I was. She ran a post-curricular activity I was very involved in so we spent a lot of time together. I flirted with her and she realized that. Like anyone, there was no doubt she was flattered by the attention I gave her. But she dealt with the situation professionally while trying to preserve my feelings.

If she had reciprocated my advances, I would certainly have taken advantage of that and I don't think I would have been the victim. If anything, I think she would have been the victim. It's hard to reject someone that you like and you know will be hurt by your rejection, but she had to reject me to protect herself.

Can a 38-year-old and a 14-year-old have a romantic relationship? Michael Douglas is 25 years older than Catherine Zeta Jones. Sean Connery was People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59 and there are still 20- and 30-something women who think he's gorgeous in his 70s. By and large, you can't really control who you fall in love with. But as long as the person you are attracted to is consenting and of a biological age, nature doesn't seem to have a problem with it -- we're the ones that a have a problem with it.

On one level, teachers and students aren't that different from a supervisor-employee relationship. While there are frequently rules against it, these relationships frequently develop for the same reason they develop in high schools -- the people at work (or school) are the people you spend the most time with.

We shouldn't be surprised that students and teachers develop relationships. Why wouldn't a high school student fall for and older person? I think we would all agree that high school students are a mess -- why wouldn't you prefer to have a relationship with a mature adult? From the other perspective, high school students in love can be adoring. Who wouldn't enjoy that type of affection?

I also think we have double standards. I think most people, especially men, are more understanding when a male student has a relationship with a female teacher than vice versa. I think a lot of guys don't see a problem with a 16-year-old having a relationship with a 14-year-old, even though that would be just as "illegal" as a 38-year-old and a 14-year-old.

I'm aware that if you believe there is no way that a 14-year-old can be attracted to a 38-year-old and vice versa, nothing will change your mind. I think your'e being naive. The only thing keeping two people apart in this scenario who are attracted to each other is a sense of virtue, and frankly that's not enough.

All of this said, I don't think it's appropriate for a teacher to date a student. I think teachers should try to take steps to avoid these situations and we should provide them with more training, support and resources to protect them from these situations. But just as coworkers will date in their workplace, when it happens the people involved should carefully consider and accept the ramifications. It sounds like that's the case here.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Is it my fault that I've lived a full and varied life?

I'm 24, so I'm probably too old to garner your attention, but I gotta answer this question with a question of my own:

Which AOL chat do people with full and varied lives meet each other in? Is it AOL created or user created? I'm just wondering, because all the 17 year olds I talk to in chat rooms won't do anything more than low self-esteem induced webcam stripping.

Oh, and A/S/L?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

RainMaker says I MUST be a sexual predator since I am so much older than my wife. Who am I or or anyone in a nearly 12 year relationship built on love, sacrifice, support and mutual trust and admiration to argue with RAINMAKERS OBVIOUSLY more well supported views on the world.

You clearly choose not to read the thread. If your wife was 14 years old and you were 38 when you met her, then yes, I'd consider you an unsavory character. If you were both adults, it's fine. Your bodies and minds had matured to a level that could handle a relationship.

Trying to compare adult relationships to that of a middle aged man and child is absurd. Your arguments are no different than those made by pro-pedophilia advocacy groups like NAMBLA and PIE. The "exceptions" because "she pursued it" or "she turned out alright".

You keep spouting off about "evidence". We are giving our opinions on the topic of children and middle aged men dating. There is no "evidence" needed, it's a philosophical debate about what we feel is right and wrong. Trying to spin the conversation around is not going to change the fact that your beliefs are eerily similar to some unsavory groups.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I'm 24, so I'm probably too old to garner your attention, but I gotta answer this question with a question of my own:

Which AOL chat do people with full and varied lives meet each other in? Is it AOL created or user created? I'm just wondering, because all the 17 year olds I talk to in chat rooms won't do anything more than low self-esteem induced webcam stripping.

Oh, and A/S/L?

LOL we met on a EW-Too style "talker" not a typical chat room like you describe. The differences are probably minute, but there is a higher level of learning curve to use the one's we met in.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You clearly choose not to read the thread. If your wife was 14 years old and you were 38 when you met her, then yes, I'd consider you an unsavory character. If you were both adults, it's fine. Your bodies and minds had matured to a level that could handle a relationship.

Trying to compare adult relationships to that of a middle aged man and child is absurd. Your arguments are no different than those made by pro-pedophilia advocacy groups like NAMBLA and PIE. The "exceptions" because "she pursued it" or "she turned out alright".

You keep spouting off about "evidence". We are giving our opinions on the topic of children and middle aged men dating. There is no "evidence" needed, it's a philosophical debate about what we feel is right and wrong. Trying to spin the conversation around is not going to change the fact that your beliefs are eerily similar to some unsavory groups.

Wow, you really don't read for comprehension do you?You know what. I'm done feeding the troll to. If you can't read what is being said and realize that we're not defending HIM or condoning the act, but simply trying to reign your ignorance in a bit then you just never going to get it.

To you the world is black and white. To YOU there is no middle ground there are no exceptions to anything. To YOU people are either right or wrong and there can be NO other possible outcome.

You're opinion is ignorant. Your continued argument is repetitive, lazy and without substance. You draw in ideas and comments from examples that are not relevant to this specific situation.

I suggest you bookmark the thread, save it for a few months, then return and re-read what was posted. Sometimes it takes getting ones head out of one......hrm...out of the situation, to help one see more clearly what others have tried to explain.

Good Day.


PS: learn what "spinning" a situation means. The only one spinning this story and their explanation here is you.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'm going to try and tackle a larger question here and hope that it doesn't get lost. That said, I think it's important to draw a distinction between what is illegal vs. what is inappropriate. Clearly the evidence in this case suggests that the relationship wasn't illegal, simply inappropriate. Personally, I'd argue that it wasn't inappropriate because of the ages but because school employees (teachers/coaches) shouldn't date their students.

But it happens. It happens a lot. We hear about the sensational cases when their is a pregnancy or the teacher is hot. I'd imagine that it happens hundreds if not thousands of times per year. I would imagine there are plenty of cases when it is not caught and others when it is not proven or is dealt with off the record. I have personal knowledge of each of those three cases.

Why does it happen? First, this just in ... high school kids have hormones. Plus, high school kids frequently develop crushes on their teachers. I would be willing to bet money that in 90% of the cases where teachers and students have relationships, the student is the one who initiates it. I would be willing to suppose that frequently there extenuating circumstances that spark the relationship: maybe the student has a problem with school or home and the teacher is helping; coach-type relationships are another, whether it's track, cheerleading, debate, newspaper/yearbook, etc.; or work-type relationships where the teacher and student spend more time together or one-one-one time together.

You can make all the laws you want to regulate personal behavior but you cannot change the laws of nature. As it has been said, biology trumps virtue. One you have two post-pubescent people with sexual attraction and urges, it is unrealistic to believe that an arbitrary age cutoff will control those urges. If two people of a certain biological development are attracted to each other, that's not exactly something you can legislate to stop. It's unreasonably to believe that puritanical view of romantic relationship can somehow be enforced. The age of consent is an arbitrary line.

I'll admit that I had a crush on a high school teacher. She was young so she was really only about eight years older than I was. She ran a post-curricular activity I was very involved in so we spent a lot of time together. I flirted with her and she realized that. Like anyone, there was no doubt she was flattered by the attention I gave her. But she dealt with the situation professionally while trying to preserve my feelings.

If she had reciprocated my advances, I would certainly have taken advantage of that and I don't think I would have been the victim. If anything, I think she would have been the victim. It's hard to reject someone that you like and you know will be hurt by your rejection, but she had to reject me to protect herself.

Can a 38-year-old and a 14-year-old have a romantic relationship? Michael Douglas is 25 years older than Catherine Zeta Jones. Sean Connery was People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59 and there are still 20- and 30-something women who think he's gorgeous in his 70s. By and large, you can't really control who you fall in love with. But as long as the person you are attracted to is consenting and of a biological age, nature doesn't seem to have a problem with it -- we're the ones that a have a problem with it.

On one level, teachers and students aren't that different from a supervisor-employee relationship. While there are frequently rules against it, these relationships frequently develop for the same reason they develop in high schools -- the people at work (or school) are the people you spend the most time with.

We shouldn't be surprised that students and teachers develop relationships. Why wouldn't a high school student fall for and older person? I think we would all agree that high school students are a mess -- why wouldn't you prefer to have a relationship with a mature adult? From the other perspective, high school students in love can be adoring. Who wouldn't enjoy that type of affection?

I also think we have double standards. I think most people, especially men, are more understanding when a male student has a relationship with a female teacher than vice versa. I think a lot of guys don't see a problem with a 16-year-old having a relationship with a 14-year-old, even though that would be just as "illegal" as a 38-year-old and a 14-year-old.

I'm aware that if you believe there is no way that a 14-year-old can be attracted to a 38-year-old and vice versa, nothing will change your mind. I think your'e being naive. The only thing keeping two people apart in this scenario who are attracted to each other is a sense of virtue, and frankly that's not enough.

All of this said, I don't think it's appropriate for a teacher to date a student. I think teachers should try to take steps to avoid these situations and we should provide them with more training, support and resources to protect them from these situations. But just as coworkers will date in their workplace, when it happens the people involved should carefully consider and accept the ramifications. It sounds like that's the case here.

It quite interesting to read the other Child molestor hot (read the last page or so) and this thread.