Just when PETA couldn't get any stupider or grosser

[Galaxy]

How about a double scoop of mama's milk? - Diet and nutrition - MSNBC.com

How about a double scoop of mama's milk?
PETA proposes that Ben & Jerry's use breast milk in its ice cream
Breast Milk Ice Cream


WATERBURY, Vt. - Mooove over, Holsteins. PETA wants world-famous Ben & Jerry's Homemade Ice Cream to tap nursing moms, rather than cows, for the milk used in its ice cream.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is asking the ice cream maker to begin using breast milk in its products instead of cow's milk, saying it would reduce the suffering of cows and calves and give ice cream lovers a healthier product.

The idea got a cool reception Thursday from Ben & Jerry's officials, the company's customers and even La Leche League International, the world's oldest breast-feeding support organization, which promotes the practice — for babies, anyway.

PETA wrote a letter to company founders Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield on Tuesday, telling them cow's milk is hazardous and that milking them is cruel.

"If Ben and Jerry's replaced the cow's milk in its ice cream with breast milk, your customers — and cows — would reap the benefits," wrote Tracy Reiman, executive vice president of the animal rights advocacy group. She said dairy products have been linked to juvenile diabetes, allergies and obesity.

Ashley Byrne, a campaign coordinator for PETA, acknowledged the implausibility of substituting breast milk for cow's milk, but said it's no stranger than humans consuming the milk of another species.

"We're aware this idea is somewhat absurd, and that putting it into practice is a stretch. At the time same, it's pretty absurd for us to be drinking the milk of cows," she said.

It takes about 12 pounds — or 1 1/2 gallons of milk — to make a gallon of ice cream. Ben & Jerry's, which gets its milk exclusively from Vermont cows, won't say how much milk it uses or how much ice cream it sells.

As a standardized product under federal regulations, ice cream must be made with milk from healthy cows. Ice cream made from goat's milk, for example, would have to be labeled as such.

Presumably, so would mother's milk ice cream.

Ben & Jerry's will stick to cows
To Ben & Jerry's, the idea is udderly ridiculous.

"We applaud PETA's novel approach to bringing attention to an issue, but we believe a mother's milk is best used for her child," spokesman Sean Greenwood said in an e-mail. He didn't respond to requests for an interview.

Leon Berthiaume, general manager of the St. Albans Cooperative Creamery, which provides milk products to Ben & Jerry's, called the dairy products "among the safest in the world."

"Milk from cows has long-term health benefits and has been proven to be safe and healthy and an important part of the American diet for generations," he said. "I'm not ready to make that change."

Cow's milk and mother's milk aren't interchangeable, according to La Leche spokeswoman Jane Crouse, who says breast milk is a dynamic substance that's different with each woman and each child and might have difficulty being processed into ice cream.

Then there's the question of who would provide the milk, and whether they'd be paid.

"Some women feel compelled to donate milk to a milk bank for adopted babies, or for someone who's ill or unable to breast feed. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence about sisters who nurse each others' babies. There's a population of women very willing to share their milk. Whether there's enough to do it for a commercial entity, who can say?" she said.

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At the Ben & Jerry's factory in Waterbury, consumers gave a collective "Eww" to the idea Thursday.

"It's kind of creepy," said Jeff Waugh, 42, of Dayton, Ohio.

"I think it's a little nutty," said the Rev. Roger Wooton, 83, of Malden, Mass., finishing up a cup of Heath Bar Crunch.

"How would they get all that milk?" said his wife, Jane Wooton, 77.

Jen Wahlbrink, 34, of Phoenix, who breast-fed her 11-month-old son, Cameron, said she wouldn't touch ice cream made from mother's milk. She remembers her nursing days — and not that fondly.

"The (breast) pumps just weren't that much fun. You really do feel like a cow," she said, cradling her son in her hands.

[Mustang]

Mmm.. nice pint of Nipply Nougat

[Honolulu_Blue]

Two points.

First, why is it any grosser to consider drinking human's milk than cow's milk? If anything, it'd seem more natural for humans to drink human milk, since we're humans after all. We really weren't designed to consume milk, of any kind, after a certain age.

Second, this kind of stuff kills me about PETA. PETA does a ton of good. They really do. They have forced through a number of significant laws and regulations for the humane treatment of animals. There's just this radical section of the group that just always pushes things too far. This kind of nonsense is what makes it so easy for people to just dismiss a lot of the good PETA does. It's sad.

[JediKooter]

PETA is an f'ing joke.

[lungs]

I am a dairy farmer and let me just say that milk production is DIRECTLY correlated to how comfortable and happy our cows are.

Almost everything that comes out of PETA against dairying is complete bullshit. I say almost everything because I'll be the first to admit there are areas that could be improved in regard to humane treatment of animals.

But when people ask how in the world I can squeeze a 90 pound average daily yield out of my cows, the answer is simple. Put good food in front of them and a comfortable place to lay down. Not everybody does that, but they pay the consequences in their pocketbooks.

[fantom1979]

I love pitas, i don't think they are gross or stupid

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lungs

I am a dairy farmer and let me just say that milk production is DIRECTLY correlated to how comfortable and happy our cows are.

Almost everything that comes out of PETA against dairying is complete bullshit. I say almost everything because I'll be the first to admit there are areas that could be improved in regard to humane treatment of animals.

But when people ask how in the world I can squeeze a 90 pound average daily yield out of my cows, the answer is simple. Put good food in front of them and a comfortable place to lay down. Not everybody does that, but they pay the consequences in their pocketbooks.

Of course the food is mainly corn right... ?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

I love pitas, i don't think they are gross or stupid

Mmmmmmm hummus!

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

WATERBURY, Vt. - Mooove over, Holsteins. PETA wants world-famous Ben & Jerry's Homemade Ice Cream to tap nursing moms, rather than cows, for the milk used in its ice cream.

That's hot.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by lungs

I am a dairy farmer and let me just say that milk production is DIRECTLY correlated to how comfortable and happy our cows are.

Almost everything that comes out of PETA against dairying is complete bullshit. I say almost everything because I'll be the first to admit there are areas that could be improved in regard to humane treatment of animals.

But when people ask how in the world I can squeeze a 90 pound average daily yield out of my cows, the answer is simple. Put good food in front of them and a comfortable place to lay down. Not everybody does that, but they pay the consequences in their pocketbooks.

And I thank you for all of the tasty foods that you provide.

[Subby]

Yeah bovine breast milk is WAY LESS GROSS than human breast milk.

Good call.

[cartman]

I wonder what Noddadrop's stance is on this.

[MacroGuru]

I have to say....every once in a while a trip to the PETA website makes me realize that is one organization that is just slightly crazy and a little overzealous at times.

[EagleFan]

From the makers of Cherry Garcia we proudly present "Mamela Anderson".

[ISiddiqui]

I do wonder what PETA's female members think of this?

[RendeR]

Ashley Byrne, a campaign coordinator for PETA



According to the article I'd say they're not all that bothered by it.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by cartman

I wonder what Noddadrop's stance is on this.

Exactly my first thought when clicking the thread.

On the label:
"new and improved formula- PACKED WITH SEXUAL NERVES!"

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ashley Byrne, a campaign coordinator for PETA



According to the article I'd say they're not all that bothered by it.

I'm not talking about the crazies in executive positions; I mean the rank-and-file. Or feminists among them. You know, with the potentially catastrophic thing that could do to women's rights in less developed countries especially.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm not talking about the crazies in executive positions; I mean the rank-and-file. Or feminists among them. You know, with the potentially catastrophic thing that could do to women's rights in less developed countries especially.

Countries where the women have small boobs?

[BrianD]

Doesn't it cause problems to not milk cows frequently? They have to be milked whether the milk is used or not, right?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Countries where the women have small boobs?

I wonder what the Itty Bitty Titty Committee has to say about this?

[Raiders Army]

How is milking cruel to cows? I'd say the whole cut 'em up thing for steak and burgers is probably more cruel. PETA is a bunch of pussies. If they had any balls whatsoever, they'd take this to the limit and tell people that we shouldn't cut up cows for meat. Grandpa dies? Cut him up and eat him. Much more humane, right?

[Greyroofoo]

Where can I sign up to milk the women?

[lighthousekeeper]

Step 1: PETA arranges publicity stunt to raise awareness of an issue they care about by promoting some outlandish idea.

Step 2: People absolutely fall for it and mistake it for a serious suggestion(see above)

Step 3: PETA members smile

[jeff061]

Step 4: Issue is taken just as seriously as initial idea. Everything is forgotten. Repeat step one.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Second, this kind of stuff kills me about PETA. PETA does a ton of good. They really do. They have forced through a number of significant laws and regulations for the humane treatment of animals. There's just this radical section of the group that just always pushes things too far. This kind of nonsense is what makes it so easy for people to just dismiss a lot of the good PETA does. It's sad.

Very true. They need to shake up their public image. I'm glad we finally live in a world where the humane treatment of animals is actually a mainstream value - and yet PETA still acts like fringe extremist group.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Step 4: Issue is taken just as seriously as initial idea. Everything is forgotten. Repeat step one.

Exactly... they make the original issue seem just as ridiculous.

[tarcone]

PETA

People Eating Tasty Animals

Thats my favorite organization

[Sgran]

I respect PETA, but animal welfare is low on my list of priorities. I figure being vegetarian is doing my part. It also bugs me that I mysteriously got on their mailing list and can't get off.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I have to say....every once in a while a trip to the PETA website makes me realize that is one organization that is just slightly crazy and a little overzealous at times.

At times?

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Sgran

I respect PETA

I have to know: straight face?

[Tekneek]

Oh my god. How gross! Drink milk intended for a calf? HELL YEAH! A human? Absolutely not!

Where is the logic in that position?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

How is milking cruel to cows?

You need to read about how it is done. They take the baby away and let it starve for days (especially if it is male). So, while this mom cow is looking for its baby, they hook her up to a pumping machine. At least when a cow is killed, the torture has ended. You can only be killed once. When you have them give birth solely so they will be able to express milk, it is a torture that seems to never end. Now, you may think that is a wonderful and terrific idea, but I can definitely see how that is worse than just killing them.

Only if the way they started harvesting milk from humans were to have them give birth, take the baby and let it die, and have a depressed mom who cannot find its baby hooked up to a breast pumping machine would you see the same thing happening.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

You need to read about how it is done. They take the baby away and let it starve for days (especially if it is male). So, while this mom cow is looking for its baby, they hook her up to a pumping machine. At least when a cow is killed, the torture has ended. You can only be killed once. When you have them give birth solely so they will be able to express milk, it is a torture that seems to never end. Now, you may think that is a wonderful and terrific idea, but I can definitely see how that is worse than just killing them.

Only if the way they started harvesting milk from humans were to have them give birth, take the baby and let it die, and have a depressed mom who cannot find its baby hooked up to a breast pumping machine would you see the same thing happening.

Uhhh you couldn't be more wrong. You are correct that the calves are taken away immediately but the statement that they are starved for days is absolutely absurd. The calves are taken away immediately and fed immediately with milk from the mother that contains antibodies that are necessary for the calves survival.

As for milking the cows, I guess since I see it every day and see the cows fighting to get into the milking area to get milked, I would hardly call it inhumane. NOT milking them is inhumane.

It's always funny when somebody doesn't have a fucking clue opens up their mouth about topics like this. I live this shit every day. And you are clueless.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by lungs

Uhhh you couldn't be more wrong. You are correct that the calves are taken away immediately but the statement that they are starved for days is absolutely absurd. The calves are taken away immediately and fed immediately with milk from the mother that contains antibodies that are necessary for the calves survival.

How are the male calves cared for? Do you know where veal comes from?

As for milking the cows, I guess since I see it every day and see the cows fighting to get into the milking area to get milked, I would hardly call it inhumane. NOT milking them is inhumane.

So you do not even deny that the system is based on stealing the babies from their mothers?

It's always funny when somebody doesn't have a fucking clue opens up their mouth about topics like this. I live this shit every day. And you are clueless.

I have read plenty about it, asshole, and I will believe my other sources much more easily than I will believe somebody acting like an asshat on FOFC. You may "know" how it is done where you are, but I have read plenty, seen plenty of videos, and more that demonstrates vividly that your claims are not true across the board by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Keep living in dreamland, bitch, but don't claim it is the absolute truth.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

How are the male calves cared for? Do you know where veal comes from?



So you do not even deny that the system is based on stealing the babies from their mothers?



I have read plenty about it, asshole, and I will believe my other sources much more easily than I will believe somebody acting like an asshat on FOFC. You may "know" how it is done where you are, but I have read plenty, seen plenty of videos, and more that demonstrates vividly that your claims are not true across the board by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Keep living in dreamland, bitch, but don't claim it is the absolute truth.

Stealing babies from your mother? I don't think he said they are shipped away. Just they are moved to mothers that can help them survive (and I'm guessing within the same barn). These are cows, not humans. Animals do not have the same emotional and mental capabilities as humans.

I believe that dairy cows are not slaughter. I think cattle cow (or whatever they may be called) are raised for meat.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Stealing babies from your mother? These are cows, not humans. Animals do not have the same emotional and mental capabilities as humans.

I believe that dairy cows are not slaughter. I think cattle cow (or whatever they may be called) are raised for meat.

I have seen them charge at people who try to approach their young. There is no attachment? Why would they do such a thing then? And you do not think the calf is the baby and the cow who gave birth to it is the mother? What are they then? Something else? Also, from having talked to people who have raised cows, the mom very much wants to look after the baby after it is born. When they had one that did not survive, they told me plenty about how the mom called out and tried to find the baby for days. Of course, that is all bullshit to you, so it doesn't really matter. Deny it if you want to, but I am convinced otherwise and have zero ethical concerns with my position.

Indeed, it is generally different kinds of cows that are bred for the different purposes.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I have seen them charge at people who try to approach their young. There is no attachment? Why would they do such a thing then? And you do not think the calf is the baby and the cow who gave birth to it is the mother? What are they then? Something else? Also, from having talked to people who have raised cows, the mom very much wants to look after the baby after it is born. When they had one that did not survive, they told me plenty about how the mom called out and tried to find the baby for days. Of course, that is all bullshit to you, so it doesn't really matter. Deny it if you want to, but I am convinced otherwise and have zero ethical concerns with my position.

Indeed, it is generally different kinds of cows that are bred for the different purposes.

Wow. You've talked to a few people. Well guess what? I deliver baby calves on a daily basis. I've never once been charged or in any way had any aggression showed towards me from a mother.

Of course the mother wants to look after its young after it's born. It's instinct. On the other hand, I've also seen several mothers trample their calves to death.

When you say that after the calves are taken away they are starved to death, you show me that you don't have a god damned clue what you are talking about. Calves are the lifeblood of all farms. They are the future. They are immediately fed after being taken away from the mother and fed twice a day thereafter. The mothers are absolutely happy to be milked after the calf is taken away to help reduce the swelling and discomfort in their udders.

It just pisses the living hell out of me that people like you think they are experts after talking to somebody. You don't have a god damned clue. I do this every single day of the year. To say I don't know what I'm talking about is absurd. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

That being said, I'd gladly welcome you or anybody else onto my farm to see for yourself. I have no qualms about what I do for a living, and I'm damn well not going to sit by idly when morons like you spout completely baseless bullshit that's not even close to reality.

[Tekneek]

What type of place do you work at and who do you work for? Besides that, I would love to come and visit it. Can I have a tour? I want to see everything that you claim to be so wonderful. I know for a fact that few people, who are not employees, get onto the inside of what is known as a "factory farm." If you work at one, I would love to come in with a video camera, spend a week there with free reign (I will accept that somebody may need to accompany me, but I get to decide what to photograph and videotape - although, they can ask me to take pictures or video of whatever they want, as long as they never tell me no) and come out with evidence that all is wonderful.

I have seen otherwise, but if you work at one and everything is truly done right, surely they would love to share this with the world, right?

If you work at one that is not a "factory farm", then I will accept that you are probably right. But you're not right about how all of it is done at all farms, because I know better than that.

If I made any mistake, I let my statements about "factory farms" stand as if they applied to all farms. I accept that. I know about "factory farms" from plenty of research done by others. I know about good farms from being there myself.

Originally Posted by lungs

When you say that after the calves are taken away they are starved to death, you show me that you don't have a god damned clue what you are talking about. Calves are the lifeblood of all farms. They are the future. They are immediately fed after being taken away from the mother and fed twice a day thereafter. The mothers are absolutely happy to be milked after the calf is taken away to help reduce the swelling and discomfort in their udders.

So, you are saying that people know best how to care for the babies? Sure, some people kill their babies, so maybe we should take all of them away from their parents. Sounds like a good idea.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I have read plenty about it, asshole, and I will believe my other sources much more easily than I will believe somebody acting like an asshat on FOFC. You may "know" how it is done where you are, but I have read plenty, seen plenty of videos, and more that demonstrates vividly that your claims are not true across the board by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Keep living in dreamland, bitch, but don't claim it is the absolute truth.

Welp, you just ruined the thread.

Oh, and you came off as more of an asshat than he did.

Just commenting as a casual observer.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Welp, you just ruined the thread.

Oh, and you came off as more of an asshat than he did.

Just commenting as a casual observer.

I'm not sure that I care that much, but thanks for sharing. The mistakes that were made were both of us thinking we could let our comments represent all farms and we were both wrong with that.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Welp, you just ruined the thread.

Oh, and you came off as more of an asshat than he did.

Just commenting as a casual observer.

Yep.

[sabotai]

PETA is the animal rights as Fox News is to "fair and balanced"

[lungs]

We milk a little over 400 cows. Is that a factory farm? It's owned mostly by my father, who bought it from his father and I am now starting to take over as my dad starts to retire.

What I don't think you are understanding is that dairy is much different than any other species or even beef cattle. Like I said in an earlier post, with dairy cows, their production is directly correlated to how comfortable they are. Dairy farms that don't treat their cattle well don't last. It's just a plain fact.

Other species on the other hand, including cows harvested for meat, I can see problems with. I find veal crates to be absolutely appalling. Our calves are housed in groups of four in pens with plenty of room to move around and socialize with their pen mates. They are cared for by a lady that works for me who's only job is to take care of the calves. She is absolutely tremendous and I can't remember the last time a calf died under her care. I am constantly looking for new ways and new products to care for our calves, because an unhealthy calf will turn out to be an unhealthy, low producing cow.

Our cows are not pastured, but I feel their comfort level is better than that of a pasture. Our stalls are bedded with sand which studies have shown is the best surface for cows to lay on. A University of Wisconsin study was conducted in part on our farm, and our cows had the lowest incidence of lameness of any farm in the study. We have attributed an 8 pound per day increase per cow simply by having the cows lay on sand. We are very aggressive in terms of treating lameness. Our hoof trimmer is world renowned (if you can be as a hoof trimmer) for his work.

Now I won't try and paint everything as rosy for you. I'll be the first to admit that there are animal welfare issues we deal with. Handling cows that are unable to stand on their own is probably one of my biggest challenges and one I feel I've made improvements on compared to my father's past practices. I won't allow any live cow to be moved with a forklift (much like you saw in the slaughterhouse videos recently which I also found to be appalling and illegal). Down cows are lifted by their hips using a device designed for that purpose to see if they can stand on their own. My assistant is a trained butcher and if any euthanization is needed he is able to do so quickly and as humanely as death could possible be. FWIW, we use a .22 caliber gunshot to the head.

Another aspect I've found to be inhumane in dairy cattle is inbreeding. Simply put, inbred cows are less healthy and live shorter lives. The problem is that most breeds can trace back to two or three sires that are the foundation of every breed. Therefore on my farm I've decided to start crossing the breeds to help eliminate inbreeding. I use bloodlines from all over the world to help accomplish this.

I guess I'll quit rambling. I also want to apologize for my tone in previous posts. You painted a very broad brush over all dairy farmers. That pisses me off to no end. Dairy farmers that don't take care of their animals won't stay in business. Quite frankly your labeling of factory farms as horrible entities is off base. If I was a small farmer doing things all on my own, I'd be stretched very thin trying to do all the crops and take care of all the cows. As it is, we are large enough that we can specialize. I have nothing to do with the crops. My number one priority is the cows.

Like I said. Bring your cameras. Bring all your friends. I've got nothing to hide. And I'd venture to guess that most other dairy farmers don't either. If you want to call out large hog, chicken or beef operations, be my guest. Most criticism of the dairy industry is misguided at best, and downright ridiculous on most accounts.

[jeff061]

I think Tekneek's going to be branded after this thread. Pun intended.

I mean please, are you really arguing with a guy that lives it? Really?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by lungs

We milk a little over 400 cows. Is that a factory farm? It's owned mostly by my father, who bought it from his father and I am now starting to take over as my dad starts to retire.

I do not know, but I am willing to check with others who research these things as a "day job" and see what they have to say as well. Although 400 sounds like a big number, it is more than just numbers that makes a farm into a "factory farm" or "assembly line" type of operation.

What I don't think you are understanding is that dairy is much different than any other species or even beef cattle. Like I said in an earlier post, with dairy cows, their production is directly correlated to how comfortable they are. Dairy farms that don't treat their cattle well don't last. It's just a plain fact.

I've read quite a bit about the industry and while I do respect your sincerity (despite my overreaction earlier), I don't think it falls as clearly on the good side as you do. The really awful ones may be a minority in the industry, of that I cannot speak with certainty, but I know there are some that package up many of the male calves (after making sure they stay lean and unable to build up much muscle strength in order for the meat to stay tender) for sale as veal. The worst let them die on their own. These are the places that thrive on secrecy, the kind that can be found with the largest producers of beef, pork, etc (as you've noted elsewhere).

I guess I'll quit rambling. I also want to apologize for my tone in previous posts. You painted a very broad brush over all dairy farmers. That pisses me off to no end. Dairy farmers that don't take care of their animals won't stay in business. Quite frankly your labeling of factory farms as horrible entities is off base. If I was a small farmer doing things all on my own, I'd be stretched very thin trying to do all the crops and take care of all the cows. As it is, we are large enough that we can specialize. I have nothing to do with the crops. My number one priority is the cows.

I accept that apology and wish to make my own. I am sorry I blew up about it. On a better day, I'd like to present you with some authors and books and see if you are familiar with them or know of what they write. Their attempts to look into "factory farming" have been met with a large amount of stonewalling, with often only the "good farms" being open to their requests for information. "Factory farming" is about much more than numbers. It is about an attitude that extends into every part of the operation and attempts to turn it into an "assembly line" operation without regard for much more than short term results.

Like I said. Bring your cameras. Bring all your friends. I've got nothing to hide. And I'd venture to guess that most other dairy farmers don't either. If you want to call out large hog, chicken or beef operations, be my guest. Most criticism of the dairy industry is misguided at best, and downright ridiculous on most accounts.

I accept that and hope to follow up with you in some way.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I mean please, are you really arguing with a guy that lives it? Really?

Sure. Even an honest politician can't really insist that all of them are, can they? They may be able to prove that they have their shit together, and maybe even everybody they know personally does, but that hardly means everybody else does when there is plenty of evidence available that suggests otherwise.

[lungs]

I won't disagree that there are dairy farmers out there that don't have the best interest of the animals in mind. But I feel very confident that they are a very small minority. Some of the best animal husbandry I've ever seen has been on some very large farms and some of the worst I've seen have been on some very small farms. Poor husbandry doesn't know size of the farm. But in the dairy industry, the poor farmers simply don't last because in an industry with such a small profit margin, any management shortfalls will be very harmful to the health of the business.

I think our responses to each other earlier in this thread are a perfect example of how we should not handle this dialog. I'll admit I am quite ashamed of my tone earlier because I was doing no favors to myself and other farmers. I am human.

Those who criticize our industry certainly have value. While I feel they go too far in many cases, spreading lots of stretched truths and misleading facts, I understand they have the best of intentions for the animals in mind.

At a conference I attended last spring, the Professional Dairy Producers of Wisconsin invited a gentleman from the Humane Society of the United States to speak. It was thought provoking, to hear a very strong opposing view. I was happy that a lot of us came away, including the speaker, that we all do have the best interest of the animals in mind. It's not quite as black and white as farmers and activists would lead you to believe.

[MJ4H]

Big of both of you to apologize.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Big of both of you to apologize.

Note to self. Don't post hung over.