Miami accepts? Hampton Roads Paper says so. - Page 2

cthomer5000 · 07-01-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SunDancer
Could Big East try to get UMass and Villanova to jump up from 1-AA? I think they need to kickout Temple and Rutgers, while you lose them, you lose the deadweights.

That's a questionable call on Rutgers. While the football program is only presumably on the rise, the baseball team is excellent, the soccer team is excellent. The women's programs are excellent, and the men's basketball team is geinuinely on the brink. They're only dead weight in football, and they could change as soon as this year.

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 10:32 AM

Marm, I think a viable future depends upon prestige, ratings and marketability (in other words: $$$). Most of the Big East leftovers do not have any prestige or marketability beyond their local market. BC lost its rivalry with UM but still has ND. Outside NY, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, no one else will care about the Big East anymore in football - and the networks know that. It losts it's national viability and I don't want SU on a sinking ship.

cthomer5000 · 07-01-2003, 10:36 AM

The more I think about it, the more I think the Big East's run as a power conference is done. I really think they should focus on becoming a 16 team conference, with 8 basketball only members. That way they stay solid, if not become the best conference, in the #2 money sport, but they may be able to put themselves in a good position to become a solid football conference.

my proposal:

football/basketball
U-Conn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Pitt
Lousiville
Cincinnati

basketball only
Providence
Villanova
St John's
Seton Hall
Notre Dame
Georgetown

2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 10:36 AM

A-

Why did ACC want BC and Syracuse? for the Boston and New York Markets.

It does not matter if the nation wants to see these teams, but with 54,000,000 people in the Northeast corridor, there is a market for sure. I honestly think there is a market in the Northeast for Northeast football. The thing is, we don't care about teams outside of the area, at all, but we will watch the 'local' teams quite religiously. And even if a small percentage of the total population watch, that small percentage still tunrs into a big number based on population.

I think it is clear that the ACC did not really want VPI, but saw it as the only way to get Miami. As I heard floated around, 5% of the New York market is better than 50% of the Virginia market.

albionmoonlight · 07-01-2003, 10:37 AM

A--

I understand your concern, but I think that SU's combination of academic excellence, and competitiveness in men's basketball and football and links to the NYC market will give you enough leverage to move to another BCS conference and/or attract others to the Big East. You would have gone to the ACC but for the Virgina legislature and that weirdness. I can't say for sure, but I think that you will be fine when all of the dust settles.

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
The more I think about it, the more I think the Big East's run as a power conference is done. I really think they should focus on becoming a 16 team conference, with 8 basketball only members. That way they stay solid, if not become the best conference, in the #2 money sport, but they may be able to put themselves in a good position to become a solid football conference.

my proposal:

football/basketball
U-Conn
Rutgers
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Pitt
Lousiville
Cincinnati

basketball only
Providence
Villanova
St John's
Seton Hall
Notre Dame
Georgetown

2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier

I would doubt that ct.....read what Tranghese had to say,

Worst Commissioner Ever?

The football schools hate this guy and hate what he did not even try to prevent. I will be surprised if the football schools do not break away from him and his basketball conference.

On the other hand, if they are able to get rid of Tranghese, and get a competant commish, your plan may be viable.

Butter · 07-01-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
2 of the following 3:
Marquette
Dayton
Xavier

Oooh, oooh! Dayton, Dayton!!!!

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I think it is clear that the ACC did not really want VPI, but saw it as the only way to get Miami. As I heard floated around, 5% of the New York market is better than 50% of the Virginia market.

That's good and the basis for why I do not discount SU going to the ACC (political shit aside). This would easily keep SU viable with its rivalry with UM (and create new ones) and certainly would be exciting for basketball to be in the same conference as Duke and UNC.

Despite the demographics, there is no national exposure anymore for the Big East leftovers and that's all that matters when it comes to the BCS bowls and national TV coverage. Like you said, SU can bring in at least 5% of NY (which would attractive to any elite conference, BCS and bowls), so why be content on just keeping that regional?

Daimyo · 07-01-2003, 11:13 AM

I don't think SU has to worry much as long as they aren't indecisive. Some power conference will want what they can bring.

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
That's good and the basis for why I do not discount SU going to the ACC (political shit aside). This would easily keep SU viable with its rivalry with UM (and create new ones) and certainly would be exciting for basketball to be in the same conference as Duke and UNC.

Despite the demographics, there is no national exposure anymore for the Big East leftovers and that's all that matters when it comes to the BCS bowls and national TV coverage. Like you said, SU can bring in at least 5% of NY (which would attractive to any elite conference, BCS and bowls), so why be content on just keeping that regional?

If you read that article I posted you will see there is no way we will ever go to the ACC. None....and most fans are glad at this point. It hink I would rather go independant than join the ACC.

vtbub · 07-01-2003, 11:29 AM

What about SU, BC and Pitt joining the Big 10?

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
If you read that article I posted you will see there is no way we will ever go to the ACC. None....and most fans are glad at this point. It hink I would rather go independant than join the ACC.

Never say never. With the right amount of persuasion ($$$), SU will jump ship, esp. if Miami has the clout. The fans don't get a vote.

I would not mind SU going independent for football (if anyone besides ND does that anymore). That's certainly better than remaining in the Big East, imo. In the old days, weren't SU and Penn State independents, including when SU won the national championship?

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 11:36 AM

OK, as long as Jake and Buzz are in charge, SU will not be going to the ACC. By the time they retire (3-5+ years), I think the ACC will already have a 12th team.

The problem with independant status is scheduling. Once conference play starts, who is SU going to schedule? Besides Notre Dame there are no independants worth scheduling. Maybe if the remaining Big East teams all went independant, but kept a loose association for scheduling each other.....but then why not just stay in the conference. Plus, what about all the other sports? Are you suggesting just going independant for football, and remaining a participant in the big East for basketball and the non-revenue sports? I am sure that will be talked about, but it just goes back to the scheduling problems.

Also, an independant has zero bowl tie-ins. A Poulon Weed-Eater bowl is still better than no bowl for a 8-4 Syracuse football team in the Big East compared to a 9-3 or 10-2 Syracuse football team as an independant.

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 11:38 AM

dola (I keep thinking of other things after I post)

If you have been following along, you will see that Miami went from having all the clout in the Big East to having Zero clout in the ACC. All the power in the ACC is on tobacco road, as should be blatantly clear now (well, I guess in the Virginia government as well).

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 11:42 AM

I don't know. Miami could be their only BCS-capable team (and potentially, it's biggest money-maker) so that could give them enough clout to overcome the basketball-centric mindset.

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 11:46 AM

Duke and UNC would not even vote for Miami in this latest round of expansion, knowing full well that FSU was in danger of losing the ACC's BCS bid. Even with 11 teams, unless the bylaws of the ACC change, it will still only take 2 no votes to strike anythnig down. You can rest assured UNC and Duke will supply those 2 votes, especially for a northern team like SU.

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 11:50 AM

Here's my question, something that I haven't heard mentioned at all... What happens with Temple?

The agreement with Temple to leave Big East Football and add Connecticut was made before all of this ACC Mumbo Jumbo began.

Now that Miami & VT are gone and the Big East is down a couple of schools, would the Big East reconsider keeping Temple, this time as an all-sports member? We all know Temple Basketball is quite a gem, regardless of how they've fared these last couple of seasons. Could Temple Basketball and the fact the Big East is in a bit of a needy situation get the Owls into the Conference as a Full-Fledged Member?

Here's how the Big East Football Conference looks now...

Boston College
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (leaving in '04?)
West Virginia

...now, the league will add UConn for Football in '04 I believe. Why not give keep Temple, add Louisville, and there you go. You keep the same number of teams you had before all of this began (8 for Football, 13 for All-Sports), you keep Notre Dame and their Big East Football "Affiliation" that currently exists, and you keep your BCS Bid.

The only real negative I see is there is really no standout Football Program among this group. Sure, Pittsbugh, Louisville and depending on the year, BC, Syracuse and West Virginia are fringe Top 25 Programs, but where is the consistent National Power?

Notre Dame (unfortunately

) would fit that bill, but how would the Big East Football Playing Schools feel if ND consistently took the Conference's BCS Bid because of their "tie in" with the league that currently exists for Football? I don't think they'd be happy about it at all and things would change quickly.

One other note while I'm here.

I think a lot of you are misinformed (or shall I say just ignorant) when it comes to UCF and USF as strong possibilities. These Universities are both in the Top 20 in terms of size in all of America. Academically, they actually don't trail the University of Florida (which is consistently rated as one of top Public Universities in America by many sources) by much at all (UF's Tradition is what gives them the edge in this, as UCF and USF are both fairly new Universities). Add to that the fact that UCF and USF have come a long way in a very short period of time in I-A Football, and they both have the ability to get the kind of $$$ necessary to compete on the major stage of Division I-A Athletics with that $$$ only increasing in time as both schools grow in age and in stature.

Add to that the fact that a Conference like the Big East needs a foothold in the state of Florida for recruiting purposes (and this is true for those of you who may question this comment, just check out how the MAC and CUSA schools have increased Recruiting tenfold in the state since UCF and USF joined those respective Conferences for Football).

The old "Directional School" argument is really tired. If you actually took the time to research there two Universites, you'd see what I'm talking about.

Now would either of them come in and dominate the Big East Conference right away? No way.. But, in terms of the future, you really would be hard pressed to find a school with more potential outside of the University of Louisville.

As for UCF in particular, Football would compete right away and only get better, Baseball would be very strong, Women's Sports would be very strong outside of Hoops right away, and all other Men's Sports outside of Hoops would compete well..

Men's & Women's Basketball would be the two things that would definitely need the most work, but if you took a look at what UCF is doing in terms of upgrading those programs, you'd see why they would definitely be worth the risk. A new 10,000+ seat On-Campus Arena is on the way, $$ is being spent to build a new Sports Training Facility which will be done within the year and we have ourselves an Athletic Director whose stated goal is to get this University into the big time level of Division I-A Athletics and is doing whatever it takes to take the steps to make this happen with the unwavering support of the University Brass.

(Rambling Finished)

QuikSand · 07-01-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
Even with 11 teams, unless the bylaws of the ACC change, it will still only take 2 no votes to strike anythnig down. You can rest assured UNC and Duke will supply those 2 votes, especially for a northern team like SU.

Doesn't it take 3 votes to reject a proposal in the ACC?

I though UNC and Duke both voted against the expansion that just happened, with UVA as the third and ultimately deciding potential "no" vote.

vtbub · 07-01-2003, 11:52 AM

Maybe the Big East should recruit tobacco road

Marmel · 07-01-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QuikSand
Doesn't it take 3 votes to reject a proposal in the ACC?

I though UNC and Duke both voted against the expansion that just happened, with UVA as the third and ultimately deciding potential "no" vote.

You are correct, it is 3. My bad.

Makes you wonder why, once Virginia's hands were untied, SU or BC still did not have the votes necessary. Somebody from Tobacco Road is voting with UNC/Duke I guess.

SirFozzie · 07-01-2003, 12:04 PM

Marmel: NC State changed their mind on BC/Syracuse at the last minute (reportedly, it would have been BC to get the third invite), and that doomed everything

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 12:05 PM

But the Million Dollar Question is just how long do newcomers Miami & Virginia Tech have to wait before getting a vote in these matter?

(Posting this for clarification, forgive me if someone has already pointed all of this earlier). I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, the ACC requires a 75% majority in regards to expansion and individual schools. Now 7 out of the current 9 would be 78%, but when the League expands to 11 and if Miami & VT get votes on the matter, it would require a 9 out 11 vote as 8 out of 11 is only roughly 73%.

Now, this rule could change now that the league has 11 Members, but it may not..

If it does stay that way we would be in the same situation where we were before where the N.C. Coalition aka Duke and UNC would need only 1 school to go along with them to veto any option brought to the table that they did not like. And with all the differing opinions that seem to exist in the ACC, I don't think that would be too difficult.

Getting School #12 into the Conference could be a helluvan affair.

Bee · 07-01-2003, 12:06 PM

I think UCF would be a good fit for the Big East. Something that we might see is the Big East try to get to 12 teams so they could have a championship game. Keep Temple, add UConn, Louisville, UCF, USF, Cinci, & Marshall. While none of the teams are currently national powerhouses in football, we've seen that these things can change a great deal over relatively short periods of time. It wasn't that long ago that VTech was a mediocre football school and people were predicting the death of Miami football.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 12:46 PM

MK: You are correct. It will take nine of eleven for expansion in an 11-team ACC.

If expansion consideration is made before July 1, 2004, it'll be seven of nine current ACC members as it is now. After that, Miami and VT are aboard and would have full priviledges to vote (AFAIK).

I outlined above that getting a twelfth is far from a done deal with the likes of ECU perhaps pressuring the NC legislature to get them in. (God forbid)

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 01:46 PM

Thanks for the clarification Wolfpack..

Very interesting comments about the whole ECU/ACC situation. Yes I do remember hearing about the fuss the NC Legislature made about the in-state ACC Schools scheduling ECU for Football a few years ago.

This is a whole different ballgame we're talking about now though. 5 Schools from 1 State in a Major Conference? And, add to that the fact that the ACC Basketball folks would not be happy about a third shall we say "Lackluster Hoops Program" being invited into the Conference..

I think Louisville is a very intriging possibility, although geographically at least, it doesn't make too much sense for what is a pretty compact Conference. Keep in mind though, Miami isn't exactly real close to the rest of the Conference either.. Anyone ever made the trip from Miami to Tallahassee or Miami to Atlanta by car? You know what I'm talking about..

The ACC may have to work quickly though if Louisville is a consideration. Regardless of what the Big East has said recently, I don't see them sitting around and letting their Football League run with only 6 teams in 2004.. and we all know Louisville is basically just waiting on the phone call as we speak.

The other intriging possibility for the ACC is South Carolina. Now this is a perfect geographical fit with outstanding support. Talk about your avid fans, these folks sell out Williams-Brice Stadium in Columbia year after year regardless how well the Football Team is performing.. Remember that 0-for Season a few years back? USC Basketball is up and down but I would say is at the very least on par with Miami and better than Virginia Tech.

That brings up a whole new issue though, what if South Carolina left the SEC for the ACC? Where would the SEC turn then? One of the CUSA schools? USF or UCF? Or dare I say maybe even the University of Texas out of the Big 12?

And what if it was Texas (although I don't see Texas making any move whatsoever without Texas A&M a part of the equation as well)? What would the Big 12 do?

And what about the Big 10? When will they finally offer someone out there that 12th spot and who will that be?

And let's not forget about the Mountain West Conference possibly expanding one of these days, very well by taking a school or two (or possibly more) from the WAC. Then what does the WAC do? And what about the Sun Belt Conference?

Man, the whole domino effect of all of this could be absolutely incredible.

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 01:50 PM

It may be a domino effect in the short term but I see a merging effect being much more important in the long term.

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 02:03 PM

Merging? As in.... Please Continue.

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 02:32 PM

East = ACC + BE

South = SEC + CUSA

MidWest = B10 + MAC

West = B12 + WAC

Pacific = P10 + MWC

scooper · 07-01-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
East = ACC + BE

South = SEC + CUSA

MidWest = B10 + MAC

West = B12 + WAC

Pacific = P10 + MWC

[Cue Imperial March: duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh]

Don't forget

National=ND

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 03:16 PM

South Carolina might be a good fit for the ACC, geographically and rivalry wise (Clemson). However, I hope and PRAY that the ACC is smart enough not to go after a school in the SEC. Why? If the SEC loses a school, where are they MOST likely to turn? Florida State or Clemson. So in effect, the ACC would swap Florida State for South Carolina. Not a good move.

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 03:20 PM

Interesting thought Buzzbee. The SEC is the true Cream of the Crop when it comes to Football & Athletics $$$ Generated.

I would assume the ACC would make sure their schools signed something stating they would not leave the ACC for the SEC if their league was to take a school from the SEC. That is, if they learned from the mistakes of the Big East. Get things in WRITING!!

Interesting thought though and definitely something to consider. Would a school like FSU rather be in a Conference with Florida or one with Miami if it came down to it?

Could you imagine a SEC Eastern Division with Florida, Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee for Football? WOW!

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Interesting thought Buzzbee. The SEC is the true Cream of the Crop when it comes to Football & Athletics $$$ Generated.

I would assume the ACC would make sure their schools signed something stating they would not leave the ACC for the SEC if their league was to take a school from the SEC. That is, if they learned from the mistakes of the Big East. Get things in WRITING!!

Interesting thought though and definitely something to consider. Would a school like FSU rather be in a Conference with Florida or one with Miami if it came down to it?

Could you imagine a SEC Eastern Division with Florida, Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee for Football? WOW!

And to take it a step further, what if the SEC were to woo Florida State and Clemson from the ACC and then boot Vandy and Ole Miss. It might look something like this:

East:

Florida
Florida State
Georgia
South Carolina
Clemson
Kentucky

West:

Tennessee
Auburn
Alabama
LSU
Arkansas
Miss. State

That's pretty scary. Adding Tennesee to the West and Florida State to the Ease would make both of them pretty damn scary.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 03:42 PM

Well, the ACC, unlike the Big East, has a hellacious penalty for leaving the conference. It's 75% reduction in revenue in the final year, plus a proportionate percentage of ACC property (or something like that). If FSU left in 2004 and the numbers in 2003 were the same as 2002, that would be roughly $7.3 million taken away.

Also, USuCk burned a lot of bridges when they left in 1971. Hard to tell if the new blood (GT, FSU, VT, Miami) could convince any of the old-liners it's worth bringing them back anyway. Also, why would South Carolina want to leave a league like the SEC? About the only thing I can think of would be travel, as they are on the periphery of the SEC but would practically be smack in the middle of the ACC.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 03:44 PM

dola (maybe),

I've been on some of the FSU boards and most fans there said if they wanted into the SEC, they'd want to be in the West rather than the East, since by a quirk of geography, other than Arkansas, they're pretty close to most of the West teams. (Though I haven't checked to verify that fact...just supposition)

digamma · 07-01-2003, 03:49 PM

With South Carolina, the bad blood goes both ways. The Gamecocks hate all things ACC.

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
dola (maybe),

I've been on some of the FSU boards and most fans there said if they wanted into the SEC, they'd want to be in the West rather than the East, since by a quirk of geography, other than Arkansas, they're pretty close to most of the West teams. (Though I haven't checked to verify that fact...just supposition)

I was thinking in terms of keeping the FSU/Florida rivalry. Putting FSU in the east would maintain the rivalry game. I think they would be forced to rotate if FSU were in the West.

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 03:55 PM

Actually the way SEC Football Scheduling is set up, UF & FSU would still be able to keep their rivalry intact each and every season if they were placed in opposite divisions.

The way it works is each SEC Team plays 8 Conference Games.. 1 against each fellow Divisional School (5), 1 against a pre-determined Rival School from the opposite Division (1), and 2 against any of the other 5 schools from the opposite Division, with this rotating I believe every 2 years (2)..

This is why Tennessee/Alabama and Georgia/Auburn are still played every year. (Who lucked out and got Vandy anyway.. I believe it was Ole Miss). The others I believe are, Florida/LSU (Ouch LSU!), Arkansas/South Carolina (the Two Newbies), and Kentucky/Mississippi State (the Huge Rivalry that is

).

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 04:31 PM

I stand corrected.

lynchjm24 · 07-01-2003, 07:19 PM

To me the best Big East option at this point is to cut ties with the basketball schools. Keeping some crazy confederation of 13-16 teams all pulling in opposite directions will be a problem again on down the line.

I'd take the 6 that are left:
Syracuse
BC
Connecticut
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia

Add the following no-brainers:
Louisville
Central Florida

Then add 2 of the following:
Marshall
South Florida
Cincinnati
Temple

I'd miss my annual journey to the Garden, but the simple joy of kicking the crap out of Syracuse every fall would make up for it

.

Swaggs · 07-01-2003, 08:04 PM

I think the following would be a pretty nice conference:

Syracuse
BC
Connecticut
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
South Florida
Central Florida

The first four teams are pretty close geographically, as are the second four. I would think it would be wise to grab both Florida schools, to minimize the risk if one fails and to give them a natural rival to build upon.

ScottVib · 07-02-2003, 10:53 AM

Agree with Swaggs... if they go to 12 then you take Temple (Philly market, decent in hoops, and a natural fit, plus Rutgers needs someone they can compete with

) and perhaps UMass after an upgrade to 1-A (which is being discussed, Villanova had the same offer the UConn is taking advantage of to join the football conference and declined). If not UMass then you grab Marshall (after placating West Virginia).

It'll be a good, actually one of the best, conferences for Basketball (Calhoun apparently has been talking to Huggins of Cincy and both are allegedly excited about possibly being a part of (as they put it) the top hoops conference in the land) and while not at the level of the 5 "top" conferences in football, it's just below them hanging in as the 6th best conference in the land (only down one spot from their previous "5th" ranking) and if SU can rebuild and rebound, Pitt continues to develop, and Louisville continues to pump money into its programs then the league will likely to continue to improve and grow. (BC will still be a solid (not spectacular) program, West Virginia will mix in a few good years with a group of average seasons, UConn is growing, Cincy's been good of late, and the Florida Schools' are growing, and Rutgers is still there, if they went to 12 they'd pick up Temple who's actually improved the last season or two, and either an upgrading UMass program or a very good Marshall football program)

Commissioner Tranghese has kept things above board (unlike the ACC) and has already contacted both the Conference USA commissioner and the Atlantic Ten's commissioner to give them a heads up that the Big East may be looking at some of their teams. It will be really interesting to see how things shake out after the last dominoe has fallen.

07-01-2003, 10:36 AM	#54
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	A- Why did ACC want BC and Syracuse? for the Boston and New York Markets. It does not matter if the nation wants to see these teams, but with 54,000,000 people in the Northeast corridor, there is a market for sure. I honestly think there is a market in the Northeast for Northeast football. The thing is, we don't care about teams outside of the area, at all, but we will watch the 'local' teams quite religiously. And even if a small percentage of the total population watch, that small percentage still tunrs into a big number based on population. I think it is clear that the ACC did not really want VPI, but saw it as the only way to get Miami. As I heard floated around, 5% of the New York market is better than 50% of the Virginia market. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

07-01-2003, 11:29 AM	#61
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	What about SU, BC and Pitt joining the Big 10? __________________

07-01-2003, 11:36 AM	#63
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	OK, as long as Jake and Buzz are in charge, SU will not be going to the ACC. By the time they retire (3-5+ years), I think the ACC will already have a 12th team. The problem with independant status is scheduling. Once conference play starts, who is SU going to schedule? Besides Notre Dame there are no independants worth scheduling. Maybe if the remaining Big East teams all went independant, but kept a loose association for scheduling each other.....but then why not just stay in the conference. Plus, what about all the other sports? Are you suggesting just going independant for football, and remaining a participant in the big East for basketball and the non-revenue sports? I am sure that will be talked about, but it just goes back to the scheduling problems. Also, an independant has zero bowl tie-ins. A Poulon Weed-Eater bowl is still better than no bowl for a 8-4 Syracuse football team in the Big East compared to a 9-3 or 10-2 Syracuse football team as an independant. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

07-01-2003, 11:38 AM	#64
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	dola (I keep thinking of other things after I post) If you have been following along, you will see that Miami went from having all the clout in the Big East to having Zero clout in the ACC. All the power in the ACC is on tobacco road, as should be blatantly clear now (well, I guess in the Virginia government as well). __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

07-01-2003, 11:46 AM	#66
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Duke and UNC would not even vote for Miami in this latest round of expansion, knowing full well that FSU was in danger of losing the ACC's BCS bid. Even with 11 teams, unless the bylaws of the ACC change, it will still only take 2 no votes to strike anythnig down. You can rest assured UNC and Duke will supply those 2 votes, especially for a northern team like SU. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

07-01-2003, 10:32 AM	#52
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	Marm, I think a viable future depends upon prestige, ratings and marketability (in other words: $$$). Most of the Big East leftovers do not have any prestige or marketability beyond their local market. BC lost its rivalry with UM but still has ND. Outside NY, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, no one else will care about the Big East anymore in football - and the networks know that. It losts it's national viability and I don't want SU on a sinking ship.

07-01-2003, 10:37 AM	#55
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	A-- I understand your concern, but I think that SU's combination of academic excellence, and competitiveness in men's basketball and football and links to the NYC market will give you enough leverage to move to another BCS conference and/or attract others to the Big East. You would have gone to the ACC but for the Virgina legislature and that weirdness. I can't say for sure, but I think that you will be fine when all of the dust settles.

07-01-2003, 11:13 AM	#59
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	I don't think SU has to worry much as long as they aren't indecisive. Some power conference will want what they can bring.

07-01-2003, 11:42 AM	#65
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	I don't know. Miami could be their only BCS-capable team (and potentially, it's biggest money-maker) so that could give them enough clout to overcome the basketball-centric mindset.

07-01-2003, 11:50 AM	#67
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Here's my question, something that I haven't heard mentioned at all... What happens with Temple? The agreement with Temple to leave Big East Football and add Connecticut was made before all of this ACC Mumbo Jumbo began. Now that Miami & VT are gone and the Big East is down a couple of schools, would the Big East reconsider keeping Temple, this time as an all-sports member? We all know Temple Basketball is quite a gem, regardless of how they've fared these last couple of seasons. Could Temple Basketball and the fact the Big East is in a bit of a needy situation get the Owls into the Conference as a Full-Fledged Member? Here's how the Big East Football Conference looks now... Boston College Pittsburgh Rutgers Syracuse Temple (leaving in '04?) West Virginia ...now, the league will add UConn for Football in '04 I believe. Why not give keep Temple, add Louisville, and there you go. You keep the same number of teams you had before all of this began (8 for Football, 13 for All-Sports), you keep Notre Dame and their Big East Football "Affiliation" that currently exists, and you keep your BCS Bid. The only real negative I see is there is really no standout Football Program among this group. Sure, Pittsbugh, Louisville and depending on the year, BC, Syracuse and West Virginia are fringe Top 25 Programs, but where is the consistent National Power? Notre Dame (unfortunately ) would fit that bill, but how would the Big East Football Playing Schools feel if ND consistently took the Conference's BCS Bid because of their "tie in" with the league that currently exists for Football? I don't think they'd be happy about it at all and things would change quickly. One other note while I'm here. I think a lot of you are misinformed (or shall I say just ignorant) when it comes to UCF and USF as strong possibilities. These Universities are both in the Top 20 in terms of size in all of America. Academically, they actually don't trail the University of Florida (which is consistently rated as one of top Public Universities in America by many sources) by much at all (UF's Tradition is what gives them the edge in this, as UCF and USF are both fairly new Universities). Add to that the fact that UCF and USF have come a long way in a very short period of time in I-A Football, and they both have the ability to get the kind of $$$ necessary to compete on the major stage of Division I-A Athletics with that $$$ only increasing in time as both schools grow in age and in stature. Add to that the fact that a Conference like the Big East needs a foothold in the state of Florida for recruiting purposes (and this is true for those of you who may question this comment, just check out how the MAC and CUSA schools have increased Recruiting tenfold in the state since UCF and USF joined those respective Conferences for Football). The old "Directional School" argument is really tired. If you actually took the time to research there two Universites, you'd see what I'm talking about. Now would either of them come in and dominate the Big East Conference right away? No way.. But, in terms of the future, you really would be hard pressed to find a school with more potential outside of the University of Louisville. As for UCF in particular, Football would compete right away and only get better, Baseball would be very strong, Women's Sports would be very strong outside of Hoops right away, and all other Men's Sports outside of Hoops would compete well.. Men's & Women's Basketball would be the two things that would definitely need the most work, but if you took a look at what UCF is doing in terms of upgrading those programs, you'd see why they would definitely be worth the risk. A new 10,000+ seat On-Campus Arena is on the way, $$ is being spent to build a new Sports Training Facility which will be done within the year and we have ourselves an Athletic Director whose stated goal is to get this University into the big time level of Division I-A Athletics and is doing whatever it takes to take the steps to make this happen with the unwavering support of the University Brass. (Rambling Finished) __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 12:09 PM.

07-01-2003, 11:52 AM	#69
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	Maybe the Big East should recruit tobacco road __________________

07-01-2003, 12:04 PM	#71
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Marmel: NC State changed their mind on BC/Syracuse at the last minute (reportedly, it would have been BC to get the third invite), and that doomed everything __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

07-01-2003, 12:05 PM	#72
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	But the Million Dollar Question is just how long do newcomers Miami & Virginia Tech have to wait before getting a vote in these matter? (Posting this for clarification, forgive me if someone has already pointed all of this earlier). I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, the ACC requires a 75% majority in regards to expansion and individual schools. Now 7 out of the current 9 would be 78%, but when the League expands to 11 and if Miami & VT get votes on the matter, it would require a 9 out 11 vote as 8 out of 11 is only roughly 73%. Now, this rule could change now that the league has 11 Members, but it may not.. If it does stay that way we would be in the same situation where we were before where the N.C. Coalition aka Duke and UNC would need only 1 school to go along with them to veto any option brought to the table that they did not like. And with all the differing opinions that seem to exist in the ACC, I don't think that would be too difficult. Getting School #12 into the Conference could be a helluvan affair. __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 12:07 PM.

07-01-2003, 12:06 PM	#73
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I think UCF would be a good fit for the Big East. Something that we might see is the Big East try to get to 12 teams so they could have a championship game. Keep Temple, add UConn, Louisville, UCF, USF, Cinci, & Marshall. While none of the teams are currently national powerhouses in football, we've seen that these things can change a great deal over relatively short periods of time. It wasn't that long ago that VTech was a mediocre football school and people were predicting the death of Miami football.

07-01-2003, 12:46 PM	#74
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	MK: You are correct. It will take nine of eleven for expansion in an 11-team ACC. If expansion consideration is made before July 1, 2004, it'll be seven of nine current ACC members as it is now. After that, Miami and VT are aboard and would have full priviledges to vote (AFAIK). I outlined above that getting a twelfth is far from a done deal with the likes of ECU perhaps pressuring the NC legislature to get them in. (God forbid)

07-01-2003, 01:46 PM	#75
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Thanks for the clarification Wolfpack.. Very interesting comments about the whole ECU/ACC situation. Yes I do remember hearing about the fuss the NC Legislature made about the in-state ACC Schools scheduling ECU for Football a few years ago. This is a whole different ballgame we're talking about now though. 5 Schools from 1 State in a Major Conference? And, add to that the fact that the ACC Basketball folks would not be happy about a third shall we say "Lackluster Hoops Program" being invited into the Conference.. I think Louisville is a very intriging possibility, although geographically at least, it doesn't make too much sense for what is a pretty compact Conference. Keep in mind though, Miami isn't exactly real close to the rest of the Conference either.. Anyone ever made the trip from Miami to Tallahassee or Miami to Atlanta by car? You know what I'm talking about.. The ACC may have to work quickly though if Louisville is a consideration. Regardless of what the Big East has said recently, I don't see them sitting around and letting their Football League run with only 6 teams in 2004.. and we all know Louisville is basically just waiting on the phone call as we speak. The other intriging possibility for the ACC is South Carolina. Now this is a perfect geographical fit with outstanding support. Talk about your avid fans, these folks sell out Williams-Brice Stadium in Columbia year after year regardless how well the Football Team is performing.. Remember that 0-for Season a few years back? USC Basketball is up and down but I would say is at the very least on par with Miami and better than Virginia Tech. That brings up a whole new issue though, what if South Carolina left the SEC for the ACC? Where would the SEC turn then? One of the CUSA schools? USF or UCF? Or dare I say maybe even the University of Texas out of the Big 12? And what if it was Texas (although I don't see Texas making any move whatsoever without Texas A&M a part of the equation as well)? What would the Big 12 do? And what about the Big 10? When will they finally offer someone out there that 12th spot and who will that be? And let's not forget about the Mountain West Conference possibly expanding one of these days, very well by taking a school or two (or possibly more) from the WAC. Then what does the WAC do? And what about the Sun Belt Conference? Man, the whole domino effect of all of this could be absolutely incredible. __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!!

07-01-2003, 01:50 PM	#76
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	It may be a domino effect in the short term but I see a merging effect being much more important in the long term.

07-01-2003, 02:03 PM	#77
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Merging? As in.... Please Continue. __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!!

07-01-2003, 02:32 PM	#78
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	East = ACC + BE South = SEC + CUSA MidWest = B10 + MAC West = B12 + WAC Pacific = P10 + MWC

07-01-2003, 03:16 PM	#80
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	South Carolina might be a good fit for the ACC, geographically and rivalry wise (Clemson). However, I hope and PRAY that the ACC is smart enough not to go after a school in the SEC. Why? If the SEC loses a school, where are they MOST likely to turn? Florida State or Clemson. So in effect, the ACC would swap Florida State for South Carolina. Not a good move. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-01-2003, 03:20 PM	#81
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Interesting thought Buzzbee. The SEC is the true Cream of the Crop when it comes to Football & Athletics $$$ Generated. I would assume the ACC would make sure their schools signed something stating they would not leave the ACC for the SEC if their league was to take a school from the SEC. That is, if they learned from the mistakes of the Big East. Get things in WRITING!! Interesting thought though and definitely something to consider. Would a school like FSU rather be in a Conference with Florida or one with Miami if it came down to it? Could you imagine a SEC Eastern Division with Florida, Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee for Football? WOW! __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 03:23 PM.

07-01-2003, 03:42 PM	#83
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	Well, the ACC, unlike the Big East, has a hellacious penalty for leaving the conference. It's 75% reduction in revenue in the final year, plus a proportionate percentage of ACC property (or something like that). If FSU left in 2004 and the numbers in 2003 were the same as 2002, that would be roughly $7.3 million taken away. Also, USuCk burned a lot of bridges when they left in 1971. Hard to tell if the new blood (GT, FSU, VT, Miami) could convince any of the old-liners it's worth bringing them back anyway. Also, why would South Carolina want to leave a league like the SEC? About the only thing I can think of would be travel, as they are on the periphery of the SEC but would practically be smack in the middle of the ACC.

07-01-2003, 03:44 PM	#84
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	dola (maybe), I've been on some of the FSU boards and most fans there said if they wanted into the SEC, they'd want to be in the West rather than the East, since by a quirk of geography, other than Arkansas, they're pretty close to most of the West teams. (Though I haven't checked to verify that fact...just supposition)

07-01-2003, 03:49 PM	#85
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	With South Carolina, the bad blood goes both ways. The Gamecocks hate all things ACC.

07-01-2003, 03:55 PM	#87
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Actually the way SEC Football Scheduling is set up, UF & FSU would still be able to keep their rivalry intact each and every season if they were placed in opposite divisions. The way it works is each SEC Team plays 8 Conference Games.. 1 against each fellow Divisional School (5), 1 against a pre-determined Rival School from the opposite Division (1), and 2 against any of the other 5 schools from the opposite Division, with this rotating I believe every 2 years (2).. This is why Tennessee/Alabama and Georgia/Auburn are still played every year. (Who lucked out and got Vandy anyway.. I believe it was Ole Miss). The others I believe are, Florida/LSU (Ouch LSU!), Arkansas/South Carolina (the Two Newbies), and Kentucky/Mississippi State (the Huge Rivalry that is ). __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 03:57 PM.

07-01-2003, 04:31 PM	#88
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	I stand corrected. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-01-2003, 07:19 PM	#89
lynchjm24 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hartford	To me the best Big East option at this point is to cut ties with the basketball schools. Keeping some crazy confederation of 13-16 teams all pulling in opposite directions will be a problem again on down the line. I'd take the 6 that are left: Syracuse BC Connecticut Rutgers Pittsburgh West Virginia Add the following no-brainers: Louisville Central Florida Then add 2 of the following: Marshall South Florida Cincinnati Temple I'd miss my annual journey to the Garden, but the simple joy of kicking the crap out of Syracuse every fall would make up for it .

07-01-2003, 08:04 PM	#90
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	I think the following would be a pretty nice conference: Syracuse BC Connecticut Rutgers Pittsburgh West Virginia Louisville Cincinnati South Florida Central Florida The first four teams are pretty close geographically, as are the second four. I would think it would be wise to grab both Florida schools, to minimize the risk if one fails and to give them a natural rival to build upon. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-02-2003, 10:53 AM	#91
ScottVib High School Varsity Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: My Computer	Agree with Swaggs... if they go to 12 then you take Temple (Philly market, decent in hoops, and a natural fit, plus Rutgers needs someone they can compete with ) and perhaps UMass after an upgrade to 1-A (which is being discussed, Villanova had the same offer the UConn is taking advantage of to join the football conference and declined). If not UMass then you grab Marshall (after placating West Virginia). It'll be a good, actually one of the best, conferences for Basketball (Calhoun apparently has been talking to Huggins of Cincy and both are allegedly excited about possibly being a part of (as they put it) the top hoops conference in the land) and while not at the level of the 5 "top" conferences in football, it's just below them hanging in as the 6th best conference in the land (only down one spot from their previous "5th" ranking) and if SU can rebuild and rebound, Pitt continues to develop, and Louisville continues to pump money into its programs then the league will likely to continue to improve and grow. (BC will still be a solid (not spectacular) program, West Virginia will mix in a few good years with a group of average seasons, UConn is growing, Cincy's been good of late, and the Florida Schools' are growing, and Rutgers is still there, if they went to 12 they'd pick up Temple who's actually improved the last season or two, and either an upgrading UMass program or a very good Marshall football program) Commissioner Tranghese has kept things above board (unlike the ACC) and has already contacted both the Conference USA commissioner and the Atlantic Ten's commissioner to give them a heads up that the Big East may be looking at some of their teams. It will be really interesting to see how things shake out after the last dominoe has fallen.

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