Overrated Children's Writers

[rkmsuf]

Who wants to straighten out my longfellow?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I would say the empirical evidence proves it. Books like the ones mentioned above would not be popular if children (young adults?) did not enjoy them and pass them along to friends. It would certainly be preferred that they are reading higher quality writing, but if they prefer the poorer quality, I'm fine with that.

I'm not much of an expert on children's literature -- I'm just going off what I see in this thread. I didn't think Anxiety was calling out all children's lit, though -- just those three authors. Given the choice, I'd certainly encourage children to read books with better grammar.

This reminds me -- I have a friend who's written a children's book, and had it published independently. I bought a copy from him, and noticed that he spelled "descent" as "decent" a couple times-- I struggled as to whether or not to tell him about it. I mean, as the humanitarian I am, I thought that any kids reading this shouldn't be reading books with words spelled wrong, but on the other hand, do I really want to be the guy who corrects spelling mistakes in his friend's book? I mean, I'm not a writer, and probably never will be, so who am I to criticize? It'd be pretty awkward, I think. Also, the book was already published, and it's not like he was going to chuck all the copies because of it. But I pondered it for a while.

[Subby]

After reading another Berenstain Bears book at bedtime last night, I am ready to straight up murder someone.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Subby

After reading another Berenstain Bears book at bedtime last night, I am ready to straight up murder someone.

Maybe one day wifey will let you start reading "big boy" books.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not much of an expert on children's literature -- I'm just going off what I see in this thread. I didn't think Anxiety was calling out all children's lit, though -- just those three authors. Given the choice, I'd certainly encourage children to read books with better grammar.

This reminds me -- I have a friend who's written a children's book, and had it published independently. I bought a copy from him, and noticed that he spelled "descent" as "decent" a couple times-- I struggled as to whether or not to tell him about it. I mean, as the humanitarian I am, I thought that any kids reading this shouldn't be reading books with words spelled wrong, but on the other hand, do I really want to be the guy who corrects spelling mistakes in his friend's book? I mean, I'm not a writer, and probably never will be, so who am I to criticize? It'd be pretty awkward, I think. Also, the book was already published, and it's not like he was going to chuck all the copies because of it. But I pondered it for a while.

My aunt has somewhere around 15 children's and young adult books published. I haven't really read any of them, though.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Maybe one day wifey will let you start reading "big boy" books.

She's just happy I'm reading and not watching the N.

[korme]

So after reading the initial post am I the only one that gets what Anxiety is trying to say? He's just saying the stories could be just as memorable and such, but they couldn't write any better than that? That's, frankly, embarassing to anyone who cares about writing.

Also, I do remember reading The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as a kid and having a difficult time with it - but I don't think I knew why. Meanwhile, I was reading Stephen King and such and having no problems. I wonder if other kids feel the same way, but just feel that maybe their reading is inadequate if they struggle with a book like TLTW&TW?

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

So after reading the initial post am I the only one that gets what Anxiety is trying to say? He's just saying the stories could be just as memorable and such, but they couldn't write any better than that? That's, frankly, embarassing to anyone who cares about writing.

Also, I do remember reading The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as a kid and having a difficult time with it - but I don't think I knew why. Meanwhile, I was reading Stephen King and such and having no problems. I wonder if other kids feel the same way, but just feel that maybe their reading is inadequate if they struggle with a book like TLTW&TW?

I think EVERYONE knows what Anxiety is trying to say. Unfortunately, there are several things wrong with his premise, not the least of which is the irony of an argument about writing being so poorly written itself.

To address your point, maybe some kids are turned off by reading because they don't enjoy certain books that everything thinks they should. I think that the fact that so many people like a lot of the books that Anxiety rails against speaks more to the fact that many people don't care how well they were written or not. The strength of the story can often compensate for an author's shortcomings as a writer.

[chesapeake]

Grammar is a tool, not a law. The point of language is to convey ideas; when grammar and points of style become a hinderance to that, they should be immediately disregarded.

I grant you that Lewis takes that to an unreadable extreme.

I just reread The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and Watership Down last fall. Oz was clunky, plodding and often uncomfortably abrupt. The dialogue was frequently on-the-nose. I understand that some (perhaps all) of this was intentional. Baum was writing a novel for children and says so in the author's forward. For young kids, you have to keep it simple and short.

Oz does not translate into a very good children's book in this day and age, in my opinion. The casual killing that takes place in it is really stunning.

Watership Down is a far more complex animal, getting deep into some pretty adult themes. Although Adams's story began as a tale he told to his daughters, when he fleshed it out into a novel it became much more than a children's story. Maybe his editor should have attacked the manuscript with a better red pen, but whatever grammatical and stylistic problems that may exist are far outweighed by the evocation of a fascinating world with a complex society and well-constructed mythos.

Or, perhaps, I just like stories with the widdle bunnies! They're so cute!

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

So after reading the initial post am I the only one that gets what Anxiety is trying to say? He's just saying the stories could be just as memorable and such, but they couldn't write any better than that? That's, frankly, embarassing to anyone who cares about writing.

Also, I do remember reading The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as a kid and having a difficult time with it - but I don't think I knew why. Meanwhile, I was reading Stephen King and such and having no problems. I wonder if other kids feel the same way, but just feel that maybe their reading is inadequate if they struggle with a book like TLTW&TW?

Anxiety has already told us in another thread that Stephen King is a hack. Maybe that explains it?

[3ric]

While we're on the topic of C.S. Lewis, can somebody give a reasonable explanation why the concept of a candy called "Turkish Delight" exist in an alternate universe such as Narnia? It's something that's buggering me ever since reading LWW for the first time.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by 3ric

While we're on the topic of C.S. Lewis, can somebody give a reasonable explanation why the concept of a candy called "Turkish Delight" exist in an alternate universe such as Narnia? It's something that's buggering me ever since reading LWW for the first time.

Maybe something to do with latent Orientalism?

[st.cronin]

Buggering, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by 3ric

While we're on the topic of C.S. Lewis, can somebody give a reasonable explanation why the concept of a candy called "Turkish Delight" exist in an alternate universe such as Narnia? It's something that's buggering me ever since reading LWW for the first time.

It was something the Witch pulled from Edward's mind to use as the perfect bribe and then magically created?

Substandard grammar and sentence structure doesn't seem like a huge deal to me in children's literature. Kids don't have a well-developed understanding of these things yet so writing in a style that is comfortable to read is probably more important. This is probably similar to why vocabulary needs to be kept simple.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by 3ric

While we're on the topic of C.S. Lewis, can somebody give a reasonable explanation why the concept of a candy called "Turkish Delight" exist in an alternate universe such as Narnia? It's something that's buggering me ever since reading LWW for the first time.

Well, maybe Santa brought it into Narnia. He was there, after all, and St. Nicholas was Turkish.

I would think people would be more alarmed with the children's alcohol consumption in Narnia.

[sterlingice]

As much as I thought the ending of the series was pitiful, I loved the writing style of the Lemony Snicket books. Very well written, but I would think they would struggle a little more for an audience than they did as the series seems too dark for kids but "too kiddy" for teens. Then again, every once in a while, the author will have a really bad phrase he falls in love with or bad passage and it just plays like a sour note in a symphony.

SI

[Barkeep49]

Let me throw my credentials out there:
I am currently a Librarian, have previously been a classroom teacher, and have worked 8 years in positions similar to that of Librarian, though with different titles.

Anxiety is absolutely correct that much of Children's literature was appallingly written. Literary standards simply did not matter to many publishers and so we have books which are classics which would not be published in their current form today. This trend is not nearly as true today as it was 10 years ago and is a positive trend.

However, I agree with all of the people who take exception to the idea that these writers are "overrated". Authors like Lewis and Adams, and to a less degree Milne, are still read and enjoyed by children today. The movies sparked particular interest in Lewis, but he's always steadily read over the years. Baum, on the other hand, in my experience is almost never read directly by children these days, but instead is used more as a read aloud to children.

Of course there are some masters of writing for children, Dr. Seuss and Roald Dahl both spring to mind as people who excelled in both craft and story. But in the end in children's books, just as it is for many adults, story is more important than craft, and that's the way it should be.

[Barkeep49]

DOLA - Quick further clarification. Not only are Lewis and Milne still read today, but their works were important in the history of Children's literature. Their works clearly and directly inspired other writers, some of whom would also be considered important figures in the pantheon of children's lit. This influence further underscores the importance of story over craft.

[Greyroofoo]

Whenever I read books as a kid, I can never remember thinking, "Damn, now that is one well placed comma!"

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I'll agree with this.

And also Cam's statement that the way you have presented the argument is needlessly confrontational. It makes people WANT to disagree with you...

Can't you see how bad this is?

Originally Posted by wade moore

Yeah. And fwiw I (as I do with children's lit and education stuff) talked to my fiance who has a Master's Degree in Reading Education (that sounds pompous, i don't mean it to) this morning.

She pretty much agrees with Anxiety - but she explained in a way that didn't make me want to poke her in the eye .

Edit: Agreed with the principle, not necessarily the specific works.

These two quotes are quite timely for me. I'm seeing this played out at work on a daily basis. I promoted an employee a few months ago to a position as Director of quality ad security for my division. He has pretty well alienated himself from his peers in just a few short weeks. I've had seemingly numerous conversations with him that boil down to "You can't hope to succeed in your job by walking into a management meeting, and declaring that every one of your peers is clueless moron ."

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Whenever I read books as a kid, I can never remember thinking, "Damn, now that is one well placed comma!"

Of course you wouldn't because you didn't have that kind intellectual framework. But I'm guessing you might remember being entranced by something like

At the far end of town
where the Grickle-grass grows
and the wind smells slow-and-sour when it blows
and no birds ever sing excepting old crows...
is the Street of the Lifted Lorax

Just because a child cannot articulate the details doesn't meant that they don't recognize quality.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Even if we are to accept that Baum is a better writer (as opposed to storyteller), so what? The fact that Lewis, Milne, and Richard Adams are still read today would indicate to me that their storytelling abilities are good enough to make up for their lack of proper grammar.

On a side note, this seems to be a really odd thing to get worked up about. Or maybe it's just me, but the language you use (Can;t you see that Baum is a significantly better writer?/I hope you can see the bad writing here./etc) just strikes me as oddly strident for a discussion about children's literature.

Also, I'm having trouble with your statement "What is important here is the craft of writing, not the clever ideas that may have arisen therein (if any)." In my opinion, when discussing literature, it's pointless to seperate the two. One can read a beautifully written passage and appreciate it for what it is, but if the author can't tell a story to save their life, then no one is going to read their beautifully crafted shitty story.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You mean this isn't a parody thread?

I have got to agree. It must be a slow work day at the the ole college huh?

[watravaler]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I agree with Anxiety, specifically about CS Lewis. I like the Narnia books, but he's terribly overrated as a writer and a thinker.

Second...and I did enjoy LWW back in the day...

[General Mike]

Dear Mr. Henshaw was the worst book I ever read as a kid.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I didn't really see Anxiety's post as confrontational. I kind of liked it, mainly because I've been thinking the same thing about Lewis for quite some time now.

A couple of weeks ago, I started reading a chapter a night to our kids (ages 4 and 6) in "The Magician's Nephew," which is of course one of Lewis' Narnia books.

I encourage our kids to ask questions when they don't understand words or sentences, so the pace can be kind of deliberate at times with any book, but Lewis' book was a mess. Most of the problems stemmed from the quality of the writing and the storytelling, and not from the vocabulary. There are sections that would work fine, and then they'd be sections that don't serve any purpose, and sentences that are so sloppily written that my kids were lost.

While I can admit the historical significance of Lewis' work, I have to confess that not only do I think Narnia is poorly written, I also think the stories are lacking. To be fair, I've only read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, but it struck me as a weak book on the whole. Magician's Nephew seems even worse.

I can see that Lewis has a certain touch to present scenes from a children's perspective, which held my kids' interest for a while. And a few of the ideas are somewhat compelling. But other than that, I just don't see any greatness in the collection.