Interesting NY Times Article about ACC & Big East..

[MylesKnight]

Here's the Link....

...and here's the Article for you lazy types..


Big East boss to ACC: Back off 'Cuse, Miami

By DICK WEISS
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

The Big East Conference should be riding a huge wave of success this month. Syracuse won the NCAA men's tournament, Connecticut won the NCAA women's tournament and St. John's won the NIT.
But commissioner Mike Tranghese - one of the most influential voices in college athletics - is deeply upset about growing reports that the Atlantic Coast Conference - which apparently is looking to expand to 12teams in order to facilitate a lucrative postseason conference football playoff - is attempting to rip the heart out of his conference by assimilating some of its key members. According to Tranghese, the ACC has approached four Big East schools - Miami, Virginia Tech, Syracuse and Boston College - in a variety of ways about defecting from the Big East and joining that league.

"I have no use for the ACC right now," Tranghese said yesterday. "They're a bunch of hypocrites. They operate in the dark. They'll never acknowledge this, but I'm aware the ACC for the last couple of years, without ever picking up the phone or calling me, has basically gone out and tried to convince our teams to enter their league.

"They have already made two presentations to the University of Miami - and have been turned down - but they continue to come back, hoping to get the right answer. They've gone to Syracuse, Boston College and Virginia Tech.

"It's a free society. The ACC is entitled to go after another school. Just pick up the phone and tell somebody. Instead, they conduct their business through the press, commissioners, emissaries. I told our presidents I have a great deal of resentment about that. Our presidents at BC, Virginia Tech, Miami and Syracuse are happy. They're satisfied. But the ACC has tried to conquer by dividing. They whisper things to each person. They're trying to intimidate those schools, telling them, 'The Big East will not be a viable conference in the future and you could be left out if you don't come on board.'"

Tranghese feels that kind of scare tactic may have been what partially prevented Wake Forest coach SkipProsser from accepting the Pitt job when it was offered last week. Prosser eventually signed a 10-year deal to stay put at Wake. "Skip is a friend," Tranghese said. "He has every right to go to either Pitt or Wake, but it's obvious people in power got to him and convinced him our league would not be here.

"The ACC, probably more than anybody, has tried to disrupt our conference for a long time. They haven't done it yet. And, as long as I'm here, they're not going to do it."

Big East football consists of eight schools - Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, Rutgers, Temple, Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College. Connecticut is scheduled to replace Temple as a league member in two years. The BigEast receives an automatic bid to one of four BCSgames every year.

"This is completely being driven by football," Tranghese said. "It has nothing to do with basketball. The addition will not help them in basketball. It will hurt them. I'd like to know if the ACC has picked up the phone and told Roy Williams or Mike Krzyzewski it was expanding. If they want to compare what they've done and what we've done on the field, be my guest."


- Originally published on April 17, 2003

[MylesKnight]

DOLA!!

Whoops, make that NY Daily News.. Sorry!

[Marmel]

These kind of stories have been popping up every offseason.

While 12 team "Super conferences" may be the way things are going, I don't see a jump to the ACC as a step up for Big East teams. ACC football is a joke, and if the FSU program continues to decline (who knows as long as Bowden is around), football would be a step down.

As far as basketball, Big East has the Nat'l Mens and Womens champions, and outside of Duke, UNC(?), Maryland and Wake, the other schools are nothing to write home about.

I think eventually there will be a shake up in these two conferences, but I doubt it will be one conference pilfering teams from the other.


Edit, obviously the same can be said in reverse. The Big East would have trouble pilfering ACC teams because the football program doesn't have anything more to offer an ACC team than it already has....same in basketball. There conferences are pretty queal, IMO.

[MylesKnight]

Personally, I'm just hoping after all of these Conferences Shakedowns occur, which may happen in the next handful of years, UCF ends up in some kind of revamped form of the current Big East Conference.

That's the hope of a lot of UCF Alums, including Yours Truly, as well as a few members of the Athletic Dept. & Administration that I've spoken to about the issue from time to time.

[MylesKnight]

DOLA POST!!

From what I'm heard and read, the big issue that may cause all of the possible upcoming Conference Shifts is Football Playing vs. Non-Football Playing or Non-I-A Football Playing Universities within the same Conference currently.

Take the Big East as an example... Non-I-A Football Schools such as Georgetown, St. John's, Providence and Seton Hall obviously differ on their opinion of what is the most important factor in decision making for the Conference than do Football Powers Miami and Virginia Tech among others. This "bickering" that takes place may eventually be the downfall of the current Conference as either any number of Football Playing Schools bolt for a new League or Non-Footballers team up with Non-Football playing schools from other Conferences (say the A-10 and C-USA for instance) and form a new League of their own..

I know, this is all speculation, and it's been talked about time and time again.. although I'm not so sure it has here at FOFCentral.. I really think we will end up seeing some changes within the next few years though... and once that happens, the whole Domino effect could begin.

[Swaggs]

I think UCF may get in sooner, rather than later. Now that UCONN is in, UCF is the name I have heard that is most associated with the Big East.

If Temple shapes up, I can see them coming back or sticking around, with UCF being added.

[MylesKnight]

Hey Swaggs, just an FYI for you, UCF is in the beginning stages of building a new Basketball Arena/Conovocation Center in hope of eventually getting into a premier Conference.

The current Arena seats just over 5,000 and just doesn't have the kind of amenities necessary.. Although I must say the Golden Knight Basketball Program hardly fills the current Arena.. Basketball definitely needs work and will end up being the deciding factor for all-sports membership in a "BCS" type Conference. It's outstanding to see the Administration taking such a proactive approach though, I must say..

Here's an Article from the Orlando Sentinel about the planned Arena.

[Radii]

To suggest that Big East basketball is on the same level as the ACC by any measure but the most recent national champion is futile (feel free to try Marmel)

However, in every conference but the ACC, football is where the money is at. If the ACC is trying to expand to 12 teams for football, I sincerely hope they fail. I loved the 8 team ACC for years and years, and I've accepted the 9 team ACC, it has helped bring the rest of the conference up in football, though it will likely never be a power conference.

[Marmel]

Radii, just go back 5 years and count National Championships per conference.

[Wolfpack]

As an ACC fan, I take a bit of issue with "ACC football is a joke". Sure, FSU is down a bit. But then, you are discounting NC State, Maryland, and Virginia, who have begun to challenge the decade-old hegemony the Seminoles have had in the league. All three of those teams flogged their bowl opponents this past year. Unless you are going to concede that Notre Dame, Tennessee, and West Virginia were vastly overrated, it cannot be indicative that "ACC football is a joke". All three of those schools have begun to rake in the recruiting classes to make a serious push for national status as well.

In comparison to the Big East, sure the Big East won both basketball trophys this year (women's can't count for much since it is the same two schools every year, UConn and Tennessee, with no one else caring very much about the issue). The ACC won the previous two on the men's side. You do realize that when you are listing four ACC schools as among the national elite, that's a pretty high percentage of the nine total members, whereas the Big East got three teams into the tournament (shoud've had four and perhaps five) out of, what, 14 basketball-playing members?

Back to the issue at hand, most ACC fans are discrediting what Tranghese's saying here as a bunch of conspiracy theory nonsense. By-and-large most of the ACC fans don't want expansion anyway. (I myself am a fence-sitter on this issue) Clemson, Tech, and FSU have been pushing for expansion for years, but most of the northern schools are opposed to it. They like the setup whereby it's home-and-home every two years in football and every year in basketball, something they feel is lost with a two-division split. Also, because of revenue-sharing in the league (each team gets an equal distribution from both football and basketball money brought in by the conference as a whole, regardless of team performance during the season), the per-school payout is the highest in the country. Sure, other schools in other conferences get more individually, but all nine members benefit when FSU does well in football and Duke does well in basketball. Many fear that the revenue share for each school would go down if divided 12 ways rather than nine, even if there was some sort of bonanza from a football championship game.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know why this is an issue. This is like recruiting someone for a job. 99 times of a 100, you would be crazy to call the target employee's boss to tell him you are going to interview the employee. This guy won't say it, but if any conference made that call to him, he'd be on the phone to the target schools so fast, applying so much pressure, there'd be no reason for the other conference to even try.

My guess is at least one school is considering it, which is why this guy is going public.

[Wolfpack]

Marmel, go back to 1981 (Big East's inception) and count championships and Final Four bids per conference. (Yeah, I know, Wolfpacker blowing smoke by benefitting from his bitter rivals' success over the past decade, but dammit it's been a while since State basketball was as good as it's been the last two years, thanks to Peter "I can get all my facts wrong, my stories incorrect, and outright lie about everything else and still get my book on the shelf" Golenback)

[digamma]

Wolfpack,

Don't forget that Georgia Tech has been to a bowl game the past 6 years and has beaten NC State 5 out of 6. ClemPson has a decent football tradition too.

Your paragraph on ACC expansion pretty much describes the stand-off, but I think it is more Tobacco Road vs. the rest of the conference, with Maryland and Virginia willing to expand, but only under certain circumstances and with certain candidates.

[Radii]

Dean Smith should just run the entire ACC, mafia style, the way he does North Carolina Baskeball.

[Wolfpack]

'Tis true to some extent that Maryland and Virginia are more plyable on the expansion issue that the NC schools. NC State's push in football may give it some consideration to bring in expansion teams, but with basketball still king of the conference and both Duke and Wake being the only private schools in the league (neither is fond of watching football fall further behind due to newly added larger schools), it'll still take some wrangling to get anywhere on the expansion issue.

[Wolfpack]

Edit to add: "Dola!"

Radii: What do you think of the "rubout" of Doherty? I've read some wild stuff about why he got dismissed. Being isolated here in my perch behind enemy lines, it's hard to get a read on what brought everything about except for heresay and rumors on the internet. And who really runs the show at UNC? Many seem convinced that Dean's the real power even though he's not coaching anymore and that Baddour is something akin to a court jester in king's clothes.

BTW: Go to Hell Carolina! Go State!

[Mountain]

I don't know how many of you follow college baseball, but could you imagine the strength of the ACC in college baseball if you add Miami to the conference?. The ACC already has Florida St., Clemson, and Georgia Tech as perenial powers with Wake Forest being very solid the past few years. If the ACC is not already, it would be the best college baseball conference in the country.

[digamma]

I think you are right that big state universities are probably not candidates for expansion. However, Miami and Boston College tend to fit the conference nicely. Smaller private schools, with good academics. The problem is finding a third candidate in that mold.

[Radii]

Originally posted by Wolfpack
Radii: What do you think of the "rubout" of Doherty? I've read some wild stuff about why he got dismissed. Being isolated here in my perch behind enemy lines, it's hard to get a read on what brought everything about except for heresay and rumors on the internet. And who really runs the show at UNC? Many seem convinced that Dean's the real power even though he's not coaching anymore and that Baddour is something akin to a court jester in king's clothes.

I agree with a lot of the ESPN commentary by Bilas and Katz on this whole thing. UNC should have made it as painless as possible, instead of the whole giant charade about interviewing the players and making it look like the players drove the poor guy out.

If UNC had such an image to maintain in its teaching and coaching style, and they felt Doherty didn't live up to the standard, state that as the reason and move on, this crap about the players not liking him and driving him out is sad.

There is no question who's running the show at UNC, and I can't say I'm unhappy about it either honestly With Roy at the helm hopefully we've got another 10-15 years of stability ahead of us here.

I read something interested in an article today, again somewhere on ESPN, saying that Bill Guthridge never would have retired when he did, if he thought Roy Williams wasn't going to take the UNC job the first time around.

[/b]BTW: Go to Hell Carolina! Go State! [/b]

I think things are going to return to normal next year, with UNC back in the top 15, hopefully top 10, with hardfought games against NC State due to the rivalry that the good side will pull out anyway

[Wolfpack]

Miami I could see, BC I can't. One thing that gets lost in the shuffle of expansion talk is the added cost of sending all the non-revenue teams to their away games in such a spread out conference (then again, there is the WAC with Hawaii). Not to mention the league is defined by its location (Southeast) and adding a school that far north just seems terribly out of place. If I had total fiat and picked any three teams I want (I am ignoring the SEC due to the criminal nature of the conference) to join the ACC, it'd be Miami, VaTech, and Penn State. However, I am not king and cannot make such fiats.

Miami is probably the top choice and then after that who knows? VaTech has wanted to be in the ACC but the folks in Charlottesville don't want the Hokies crowding the turf in that state more than they already are. I've thought of bringing in WVU and Pittsburgh and having the "Backyard Brawl" in the league, but the big knock against WVU is academics and I'm not sure there's been any interest in Pittsburgh. I've even kicked around the notion of adding Temple because of location (Philadelphia) and a solid basketball program, and hey, perhaps Duke can beat them in football. I don't think the league, if it ever expands (a very big "if"), will go north of Pennsylvania, though.

[digamma]

WVU and Pitt would also be natural rivals for Maryland.

The trouble is if you expand, you have to bring in 3 teams. One gets you nowhere and just forces you to feed another mouth. Three more brings the total teams to 12 and gives you the magical conference championship game.

Do you remember a year or so ago when there were wild Florida to the ACC rumors? They will never leave the SEC, but think about how much fun that could be.

I don't think BC would be ruled out b/c of distance. It is still just a 2.5 hour flight from Tally. Plus, BC would be closer to Maryland than FSU is currently. I agree that this is some years off, if it even happens, but I think BC is realistically the second best candidate behind Miami.

[MylesKnight]

Concerning ACC possibilites, here's a thought.... Would South Carolina ever consider a return to the Conference? I realize USC has to like their current situation in the SEC but would the opportunity to renew some long lost Conference rivalries and the fact that the majority of the ACC schools are in close proximity to Columbia, SC?

I agree that if an ACC expansion is to occur it would be a 3 School expansion that in turn would create a 12 Team/2 Division Conference. Miami and Virginia Tech do seem to be the most logical candidates at this time, but I'm just not so sure the league would like to any farther north than it's current northernmost point, College Park, MD.

[MylesKnight]

DOLA AMIGOS!!


The reason I don't see Boston College fitting the equation is because of its location. Keep in mind most of the schedules in each sports in pretty much every Conference consist of Travel Partners.. Now, unless the ACC decided to add another northeastern school to go along with BC, I just don't see that working out... There are a lot more things to be concerned about than just Football and Hoops.. All of the non-revenue sports and the travel expenses involved in those take up a huge chunk of any school's Athletic Budget.

[digamma]

The ACC schools would never allow South Carolina back in--particularly those on Tobacco Road.

Virginia Tech is interesting. I've heard mixed things. One is along the lines of what Wolfpack wrote that UVA would never allow VPI in the conference. The other thing I've heard is the exact opposite--that UVA would not approve any expansion unless it included Va Tech. Who knows.

You raise a good point with regard to non-revenue sports and travel, but remember that Maryland to FSU is about a 14-16 hour car ride. That is a flight anyway. If you are going to add Miami, then it is even farther. That's why I don't think the travel excuse holds up for BC. It is shorter for Md and UVA to get to Boston than to Tally. Plus as of now, the ACC doesn't use travel partners. These are typically used when conferences play games on Thursday Saturday or Friday Saturday combinations. The ACC basketball schedule is set up for a weekend game and a mid-week game. The baseball schedule plays a three game series each weekend. Many of the other minor sports don't have teams from all members of the conference (soccer, lacrosse, wrestling, etc.) so there isn't a need for travel partners.

Add to that the fact that the ACC is dying to get into either the NYC or Boston market and BC seems like a viable candidate.

[Iceberg]

As a terps fan i would hate to see this happen. Adding Miami would dillute the strength of the basketball schedule and in football put yet another obstacle between the terps and national prominence. I think with florida state struggling all of the other emerging football powers are finally getting a chance to step out of fsu's shadow and dont want FSU to be replaced by Miami as the perenial conf. champ.

[lynchjm24]

As someone who loves the ACC (NC State) and worships the Big East (Connecticut), lets pull a SWC/Big 8 Deal.

Syracuse
Connecticut
Boston College
Miami
Va Tech
Pittsburgh

Florida State
North Carolina
North Carolina St
Maryland
Virginia
Georgia Tech
Clemson
Duke

Play 2 7 team divisions:
A: Maryland, Virginia, the 5 northern schools
B: Miami and the six 'deeper' south school

You've got football powers:
Florida St, Miami, Va Tech
Top 25 programs
Maryland, NC State, Pittsburgh
Schools with good football histories (and hopefully a return to top)
Clemson, G Tech, Syracuse

You'd have 7 schools in the Top 25 every year in football.

Then come basketball season forget about it:
For this coming season alone:
Pre season #1 and 1999 Champ Uconn
Defending National Champ Syracuse
Roy Williams to UNC
2001 Champ Duke
2002 Champ Maryland

You'd end up with at least 8 teams in the top 25.

Not to mention dominant programs in:
Baseball (Miami, Fla St, Clemson, Georgia Tech)
Women's BB (Connecticut, Duke)
Women's Soccer (North Carolina, Connecticut)
Men's Soccer (Clemson, Maryland, Connecticut)

Sorry, gotta go call Mikey - help put this deal together.

[lynchjm24]

Dola.

I highly doubt BC/Syracuse would bolt for the ACC. What's the advantage for them?

Yes, there would be something in it for Miami and Virginia Tech, but it's mostly just geography and neither of those schools is a Maryland with a solid program in both sports.

As a huge fan of both conferences (but my deepest loyalties run with the Big East), I'd hate to see Miami or Virginia Tech leave the conference (I do have a 3 year commitment on my UConn tickets and i'll flip if Miami and Virginia Tech never come to East Hartford, and I'm so ready for the Spring game tomorrow).

I would imagine that none of this will ever come to pass, hopefully that isn't just wishful thinking.

Edit: Go to hell Carolina. Go State!

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by digamma
I think you are right that big state universities are probably not candidates for expansion. However, Miami and Boston College tend to fit the conference nicely. Smaller private schools, with good academics. The problem is finding a third candidate in that mold.

Sorry for the triple dola.

The ACC consists of 7 large public universities and 2 small private schools. I think we've seen how the small private school perform in the fall, the ACC schools only keep Duke and Wake around so everyone has someone to schedule for homecoming .

I don't see how Boston College would fit better then a large state school.

[Wolfpack]

Wake's not the easy out it used to be since they're keeping Grobe around, though next year should be a tough one for them as they had several key players graduate.

Duke had a good football team up until the 1960s. Wake has never had one except for the occasional burp in the cosmos, like under Mackovic, Dooley, or Grobe. But, Wake has been smart to keep Grobe because he's exactly the kind of coach that school needs, someone who runs an offense that none of the other teams can handle very well, thus offsetting the talent differential somewhat (hell, they were up 14-0 on FSU after one quarter last year, which would have been patently absurb to think several years ago).

WRT South Carolina, digamma is correct. The Gamecocks and Frank McGuire burned tons of bridges with the ACC when they left after 1970. There has always been some hostility at times from the non-NC schools towards the NC schools because the out-state schools feel the NC schools hold too much power in the league (especially with league offices in Greensboro), i.e. Gary Williams remarking that he was in "Alaska" with relation to the rest of the ACC. He may be on to something, but it's more of a Duke/Carolina/Dick Vitale/Vast Nike-Swoosh Conspiracy. State and Wake can't catch much of a break against those two, either.

I can see that it probably is as far from College Park to Boston as it is from Tally to Miami, but the other thing to consider is that college sports are more important in the south than up north. The big northeastern cities have always had pro sports, so I don't think adding a Syracuse or BC adds much in terms of TV markets since they aren't the draw cards in that region. Miami, on the other hand, became a strong program during the time when practically the only other sports competition in the state was the Dolphins (sure, there was the Bucs, but they didn't actually play in the NFL until about two decades after they joined).

I'm not sure when, if ever, anything will happen. I think one of two things will set some sort of large conference realignment at the top levels into motion: 1) Notre Dame joins the Big Televen or 2) The miracle of miracles happens and we start having football playoffs after 2006, which may incidentally spur (1). Such shifts would cause other major conferences to look and see what they can snatch to keep up with the Big Ten (or whoever ND joins if it ever happened) or perhaps increase the football take with a championship game as very low tier major conference bowls fold up and take their money off the table because bowls that have little relevance now will be even harder sells with a playoff in place.

[MylesKnight]

A Response from Miami's Athletic Director (Link)

And again, for the lazy ones, here's the article...


'Canes content, but willing to listen to ACC wooing

By: Omar Kelly - Staff Writer
Posted: April 19, 2003

CORAL GABLES -- Paul Dee wants it known that the University of Miami is happy in the Big East Conference and isn't shopping around.

But with rumors arising that the nine-member Atlantic Coast Conference is looking to add three schools in order to fill the requirements to stage a lucrative conference championship game, Miami's athletic director admitted that if such a move is made, then UM and a number of the Big East's premier teams likely would be targeted. So the school is exploring its options.

"We do not have a `we're in, we're out' sign. We do not have a we're available, we're unavailable' sign. Right now its just talk," Dee said. "We understand where we are. The university just wants to be prepared in case something happened, whether somebody makes an invitation or somebody moves and you have to react. We're also looking at protecting ourselves in the league."

Big East Commissioner Mike Tranghese has accused ACC officials of poaching on his turf, claiming representatives of the ACC or members of the conference have approached four Big East schools -- Miami, Virginia Tech, Syracuse and Boston College -- in a variety of ways about defecting from the Big East and joining that league.

"They have already made two presentations to the University of Miami and have been turned down. But they continue to come back, hoping to get the right answer," Tranghese told the New York Daily News.

During Miami's baseball game against Florida State on Friday night, Dee said UM officials have not had any formal discussion with ACC representatives. He did acknowledge talking with officials from some ACC teams that are pushing for the conference to move to 12 members to boost the program's prestige as it renegotiates football television contracts, which generate about $25 million per year and run through the 2005 season.

If the ACC divides and stages a championship game, it could generate an additional $12 million from television rights deals, ticket sales and corporate sponsorships.

Because the Big East is the smallest of the major conferences, Dee said a raid would do the league serious harm. So for precautionary reasons, he said UM has to be prepared for all possibilities.

"You can't be unprepared," Dee said. "There are as many variables as you want to be variables. You make the list and we'll give you five more.

"There are so many things you need to consider. Travel. What sports they offer? Whether they are indoor sports or outdoor sports?... You go and do your analysis on those things in case something comes, and you have to react."

- Copyright © 2003, South Florida Sun-Sentinel