OT: Open letter to tech employers

[Maple Leafs]

Probably only funny to a few, but to those in the industry it hits too close to home.

an open letter to employers

Recently viewed at an employment web site:

- 3-5 years of Web based application design and administration experience (preferably with Webmaster or similar certification),
- Expert Level Java / HTML / XML / XSL / PearlScript / CGI / JavaScript development,
- Familiarity with XML standards/technologies (including Web Services), XML Schemas, DTDs, and XML/XSL development tools (editors/parsers),
- Reasonable ASP / Vbscript / Php development experience,
- Familiarity with J2EE/EJB, component development, OO development (RUP methodology), 3/N tier Web application architectures, Web Application Servers (WebSphere, WebLogic, Jboss, iPlanet, etc.),
- Familiarity with Unix platforms (Linux/HP-UX, AIX, Solaris),
- Familiarity with ODA standards and compliance,
- Good experience with Web content management, trouble shooting, site administration and related tools, Web site trend/traffic monitoring/analysis,
- Familiarity with security standards/issues (PKI, SSL, HTTPs, etc.), backend database interfacing (JDBC, ODBC, ASP), interfacing with Queues and mail providers (JMS, SMTP, MIME), front-end database reporting tools (Cristal Reports, etc.),
- Good experience with SQL databases (Oracle, DB2, MySQL, SQL Server, Access, etc.), Web Servers (IIS, Apache, TomCat, etc.), NT/W2000 platforms, networking with TCP/IP, MS Office automation tools (Word, Excel, Access, Outlook, Power Point),
- Good experience with Web development/administration/maintenance tools, such as PhotoShop, FrontPage, DreamWeaver,
- Good understanding and application of state of-the-art Web design/development products/tools/best practices,
- Business requirement specification, Modeling and Web Application Architecture,
- Highly developed analytical, problem solving and decision making,
- Should be conversant with Change / Problem / Issue Management,
- Quality Assurance Testing of Web applications,
- Web End-to-end Testing Tools and Techniques
- Effective Presentation Techniques
- Documentation,
- Oral and Written Communication

This, sad as it is to say, was for one job. And the job, amusingly enough, wasn't even for a Web Developer, Programmer, or Engineer. It was for a Webmaster.

Let's put aside the fact that this was obviously written by an HR person who had little technical knowledge (Expert Level PearlScript is one of my all-time favourites). The fact is, employers, that if your job descriptions read like this you aren't going to be able to hire anyone that is good enough to actually meet the requirements.

Taking this one point at time...

Certifications are a pretty rare animal in this biz, at least so far. Particularly for something as vague as a Webmaster. Certification definitely does not mean that you're getting someone with the skills and qualifications you are looking for. In fact, hiring someone with "Webmaster" certification may well mean that you're hiring someone with as little knowledge of the field as you have. Sorry. It's the truth.

Expert level HTML and programming skills in the same person are very rare. Why? It's easy enough to figure out - learning Java, CGI, Pe[a]rl, and other backend technologies at an expert level takes a huge amount of time. HTML, XSL and other front-end technologies also take a huge amount of time. Finding someone who has devoted huge amounts of time to both is difficult. And even if you found them, you'd never be able to hire them. I'll tell you why in a moment.

Programmers rarely know Photoshop or Dreamweaver. Again, this is pretty straightforward. They are two different disciplines. It would be like asking your finance people to start selling, or your salespeople to start balancing the books. Some crossover is possible in many people in this field — programmers who know a bit of front-end, front-end people who know a bit of programming — but by and large you're not going to find expert skills in both. Or anything even approaching expert skills in both.

A job ad for Web services, Tomcat, J2EE/EJB, and FrontPage in the same ad is the funniest thing I've ever seen. Sort of like putting a brand-new engine in a car that's spackled together with PolyFilla and duct tape. You want a quality web site? Don't put the word FrontPage in your job ads.

Traffic analysis is rarely in the purview of programmers. They may look at the numbers to ensure they're not overloading the system. But there is a world of difference between that and actual traffic analysis. Traffic analysis touches the worlds of marketing, search engine optimization, user experience, information architecture, and corporate communication. Rarely is a programmer involved in this kind of thing.

Java and Perl programmers don't play with PowerPoint, Access, or Word. Period. They are too busy playing with real applications.

People who might actually have these skills will never respond to this ad. There are a few people out there who may have 95% of the skills you're looking for, with nearly all the experience you require. There may be quite a few people who have 75% of the skills you are looking for. These are all very talented people, to have even met 75% of the goals set out by this job ad. But by putting together a job ad like the one above — something that absolutely screams “We don't know what we're doing!” — you've guaranteed that none of these very talented people would ever want to come to work for you.

Even in this recession, where there are more out-of-work tech people than ever, employers and employees both have to remember that there is such a thing as mutual respect. If you want us to learn your business, take a bit of time to learn ours. At the very least, avoid laundry lists of requirements if you have no idea what they mean. Build up a relationship of trust with us and we will reward you with loyalty and dedication, not to mention the inevitable overtime that most tech people go through at least occasionally. Don't insult us, and we won't insult you.

SOURCE: hxxp://www.angiemckaig.com/archives/2003/01/26/an_open_letter_to_employers/index.html

[PackerFanatic]

nice

[cartman]

That ranks up there with the ads I saw back in 2001 looking for people with at least 10 years of administration experience with Windows NT or Windows 2000.

[flere-imsaho]

I continue to see ads looking for 20+ years experience with Java, or HTML, or something similar.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I continue to see ads looking for 20+ years experience with Java, or HTML, or something similar.

Yes, I remember seeing ads in 2001 asking for 10+ years of HTML experience.

The only thing missing from the ad above is the line "This is a temporary contract position." Because the people with all those skills are sitting at home looking for short-term work.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The only thing missing from the ad above is the line "This is a temporary contract position."

Haha, that reminds me.... I love the ads that, in describing the company, extol its virtues of taking care of its workforce, etc... and then mention it's a 3-month contract with no option to hire.

[MacroGuru]

It's crazy out there...here in Utah, I am only looking for someone with PHP/MySQL knowledge, 3+ years experience.

I can't find them, and the ones that do apply, they are underqualified when it comes to answering some base PHP, MySQL and XML questions.

I couldn't fathom throwing something like this up and expecting a true, positive response.

[Maple Leafs]

I've been on the other side. I've written job descriptions, then had the bosses tell me I had to add more qualifications because "you never know". I tried to explain that there may be people out there with the skills we need who won't apply to a job description like that, but the general consensus seems to be that everyone applies to jobs they're not qualified for anyways.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by indoorsoccersim

It's crazy out there...here in Utah, I am only looking for someone with PHP/MySQL knowledge, 3+ years experience.

I can't find them, and the ones that do apply, they are underqualified when it comes to answering some base PHP, MySQL and XML questions.

I couldn't fathom throwing something like this up and expecting a true, positive response.

To be honest, there aren't that many people with 3+ years of MySQL experience out there. It really only started to get a lot of traction in the corporate arena at the middle of 2004. Before then it was mainly a piece of hobbyist software. The cert for it only came out around the beginning of 2004.

[wishbone]

The only way to get all of these skills in one job is to grow them internally. You have to start a person at one thing and then just keep adding work and skillsets one by one. You end up with a burnt-out shell of a person that will go somewhere else and do half the work for twice the money. Then you place an ad like this amd wonder why no one is qualified.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cartman

That ranks up there with the ads I saw back in 2001 looking for people with at least 10 years of administration experience with Windows NT or Windows 2000.

Hahaha

SI

[PackerFanatic]

When I get into this job market, I certainly hope the ads are not like that, lol.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Probably only funny to a few, but to those in the industry it hits too close to home.

I've spent enough time in/around a "real" IT department to understand what's funny about the ad, but I've also been the "in-between guy" (trying to translate rank & file into tech-talk & tech-talk back into rank & file) to draw a different conclusion about a couple of things.

Programmers rarely know Photoshop or Dreamweaver. ... Java and Perl programmers don't play with PowerPoint, Access, or Word. ... Don't put the word FrontPage in your job ads. ... Traffic analysis is rarely in the purview of programmers.

Taken individually, I don't have any argument with your analysis, but taken collectively (and having BTDT with a list of wants/needs that looked fairly similar, circa 10 years ago) I believe they really are looking for someone who can do "things no one else here knows how to do" AND who can still relate to their current employees well enough to be effective ... and even to this day, that means knowing how to handle things handed over in every WYSIWYG format imaginable -- .ppt, .doc., .pdf, .jpg -- you name it, one person in the company who has to create the informational content will probably know how to do so in that one & only one format.

What they're looking for, based on my reading of the ad, is one part IT coordinator, one part IT director, one part mind-reader, and one part magician. Given the countless applicants I've seen who promise to be all those things and much more, I'm not surprised that they still (mistakenly) believe those things can all be rolled into one. Then again, the best tech guy I've ever worked with was pretty much all those things & then some. He's also a total masochist for putting up with the impossible situation that's created for him, but I'm not sure that putting "must be masochistic" is acceptable verbage in a job ad.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by cartman

To be honest, there aren't that many people with 3+ years of MySQL experience out there. It really only started to get a lot of traction in the corporate arena at the middle of 2004. Before then it was mainly a piece of hobbyist software. The cert for it only came out around the beginning of 2004.

I know it's barely over that.

I am need that kind of knowledge on the PHP side more than anything else.

[Mustang]

Sounds like a job for Chuck Norris...

[Icy]

It as stupid as when you read as requirements:

- University studies (that you end at 23 year old if you're a good student)
- Postgrade master (usually two more years)
- At least one year expent in a foreign country learning the language
- At least 5 years of experience as project manager in a similar bussines.
- Maximum age: 30 years old

How the hell are you going to have time to finish university, study a postgrade master, go to another country for at least a year, find a job, climb to project manager, work 5 years in that position and be under 30 years old??

[Celeval]

You forgot willing to travel 60-80% on a moment's notice.

[VPI97]

It's a long winded ad, but I don't think I agree with the author's assumption that programmers are either front end (html/xml/asp/etc) or back end (java/perl/c) or desktop (office) or graphical (photoshop/etc). There are plenty of times I've found myself to be in a situation where I've had to do all of the above. A quick look at my resume lists:

§ High level of experience with Visual Studio (5, 6, .NET) (includes, C, C++, C#, VB)
§ High level of experience with ASP, ASP.NET, VBScript, JavaScript, PHP, Cold Fusion
§ High level of experience with XML, XSL, XSLT
§ High level of experience with VB for MS Office Applications
§ High level of database experience - Oracle, SQL Server, MySQL, DB2, DB/400, SYBASE, Access
§ Medium level of experience with Java, J2EE
§ Medium level of experience with AIX Unix, AS/400 servers
§ High level of experience with Crystal Reports
§ High level of experience with Loftware Labelling development and server administration
§ High level of experience with Exceed WMS
§ Medium level of experience with PKMS WMS


Maybe that just means I've been in this business far too long

[Icy]

Impressive resume VPI and i agree with you on that. I work as webmaster/online marketeer so i work mainly with html/php/javascript, MySQL and photoshop/dreamweaver, etc but i had to learn UNIX/Apache too when i started to rent my own non managed dedicated servers. At the end a web guy has to learn about everything unless you work for a very big company that has a guy for each specific work.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's a long winded ad, but I don't think I agree with the author's assumption that programmers are either front end (html/xml/asp/etc) or back end (java/perl/c) or desktop (office) or graphical (photoshop/etc). There are plenty of times I've found myself to be in a situation where I've had to do all of the above. A quick look at my resume lists:

I think the discrepancy comes from the description being written by a non-tech type, and interpretations of words. To someone tech-stupid, "a high level of experience in Photoshop" can be gotten by working at it for a few weeks. Certainly all you need for the webmaster job above.

And you must see VPI, how it would be impossible for you to have 5-10 years of experience (the non-IT standard for "high level of experience" in a field) in all of the things you list .

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Samdari

And you must see VPI, how it would be impossible for you to have 5-10 years of experience (the non-IT standard for "high level of experience" in a field) in all of the things you list .

Shrug...spend nine years in my shoes and you'll see how it's possible

I've had the benefit (luck?) of only working for major companies with large three and four tiered projects and each shop gave me free reign to work on every aspect of an application. I've never been in a "one platform/one language all the time" type of environment because that's something I wouldn't enjoy. I've always found it better to have a hand in every pot, because I have a lack of patience when it comes to depending on another coder to keep up.

[lighthousekeeper]

one question - are you looking for a job? i'm hiring...

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's a long winded ad, but I don't think I agree with the author's assumption that programmers are either front end (html/xml/asp/etc) or back end (java/perl/c) or desktop (office) or graphical (photoshop/etc). There are plenty of times I've found myself to be in a situation where I've had to do all of the above. A quick look at my resume lists:

§ High level of experience with Visual Studio (5, 6, .NET) (includes, C, C++, C#, VB)
§ High level of experience with ASP, ASP.NET, VBScript, JavaScript, PHP, Cold Fusion
§ High level of experience with XML, XSL, XSLT
§ High level of experience with VB for MS Office Applications
§ High level of database experience - Oracle, SQL Server, MySQL, DB2, DB/400, SYBASE, Access
§ Medium level of experience with Java, J2EE
§ Medium level of experience with AIX Unix, AS/400 servers
§ High level of experience with Crystal Reports
§ High level of experience with Loftware Labelling development and server administration
§ High level of experience with Exceed WMS
§ Medium level of experience with PKMS WMS


Maybe that just means I've been in this business far too long

[Buccaneer]

I react to this by thinking, 'what's the problem?'. I can name several developers in my IT dept. (and I just for a public utility) that have most of those qualifications. The thing is that once you learn the basis of web programming and oop, the rest is easy to pick up. After I was a consultant, I joined the company and did Unix system admin, network admin and db admin and from that, I went into programming and now am getting into many forms of .NET and db programming as a lead. It all builds upon what you knew before.

Take a look at VPI's list again. You will see many overlaps, including things are integrated with others. Primarily, he has the client and server sides covered, both from a system level and from a programming level, plus many of the tools that are commonly used in such an environment. That he is able to reach a high level of experience is a matter of intelligence and committment.

And that's the key in which I disagree with the original author. While I and my managers have written similar job descriptions (internally and for HR), we look beyond the skill sets. The most important thing is that you are able to understand the foundation or principles, one should be able to adapt to new tool sets quickly, so adding more alphabets is just a matter of personal development and committment.

A few years ago, we did go after those with more specific tool set experience, esp. in the emerging technologies, but it most cases, they have have failed and are no longer with the company. The reason is two-fold: 1) they lacked the broader understanding of application development (an analogy is that they knew how to use a socket wrench on a spark plug very, very well but had no idea how the car ran); and 2) they lacked any sense of how our business is run and how applications we manage fit into the business processes. This may work for those that hire or off-shore code jockeys, but with the integration of IT into the business processes becoming very critical (not only for the success of the business but for the justification of IT), we would score job candidates 50% on tool sets and technical competencies and 50% on behavior, attitudes and willing to learn and understand business processes.

Sorry to be long winded, this touches very close to home but in a different way than the original author intended.

[ZXTT]

I saw a posting in college that said something like "must have received four-year degree in two years".

[jamesUMD]

My favorite was an ad for a Govenrment posting that said that you must have "at least 5 years experience with Weapons of Mass Destruction"

I was laughing for days after that one.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by jamesUMD

My favorite was an ad for a Govenrment posting that said that you must have "at least 5 years experience with Weapons of Mass Destruction"

Maybe they wanted to make sure Saddam didn't apply?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jamesUMD

"at least 5 years experience with Weapons of Mass Destruction"

I prefer hiring experienced people for those positions myself.

[TroyF]

I really disagree with a lot of what the author was stating.

As has already been said, programmers do work with many different things. Many of them are tech geeks and enjoy working with many types of applications.

Many great web designers got their start on Front Page. It's not a bad starting point at all. And once you get familiar with it, it can grow with you. It's not the application you should use to design high end web pages, but it's not like it's some utterly disgusting thing to know either.

And the Microsoft Office Suite? Sorry, but you'd better damned well have a decent understanding of them. It's not that you need to know them all inside and out, but you'd better know at least the basics of all of them.

[Buccaneer]

Ok, I got some time and I don't feel like getting back to FBCB yet. Let's break this down (CAVEAT: despite my IT experience, I do not know the tools for web applications)

- 3-5 years of Web based application design and administration experience (preferably with Webmaster or similar certification),

Not hard since there are a million web sites and many, many webmaster. Many I know who do not do this professional, do it for personal reasons.

- Expert Level Java / HTML / XML / XSL / PearlScript / CGI / JavaScript development,

From my understanding, Perl and CGI are old school stuff. True Java can get into oop but not necessarily. The rest are scripting or interchange formatting that can be picked by reading a wrox book.

- Familiarity with XML standards/technologies (including Web Services), XML Schemas, DTDs, and XML/XSL development tools (editors/parsers),

XML is an evolution from previous markup languages. Familiarity is something that can be understood in a day, plus a few days fooling around with it.

- Reasonable ASP / Vbscript / Php development experience,

ASP can get pretty complicated, I believe. The rest are easy for "reasonable" experience.

- Familiarity with J2EE/EJB, component development, OO development (RUP methodology), 3/N tier Web application architectures, Web Application Servers (WebSphere, WebLogic, Jboss, iPlanet, etc.),

Ok, this is a catch-all type of deal. I don't think it implies that you are familiar with all of it but again, you know one web app server development environment, you can learn any other. I would think a web developer successfully developing one scalable application in, say, WebLogic, can meet this requirement.

- Familiarity with Unix platforms (Linux/HP-UX, AIX, Solaris),

Not sure what this has evolved to since my early day of being an Unix admin, but I think if you know what cron jobs are and know the file system structure can pass for familiarity.

- Familiarity with ODA standards and compliance,

ODA?

- Good experience with Web content management, trouble shooting, site administration and related tools, Web site trend/traffic monitoring/analysis,

All good (and even bad) content application (like vB) comes with control panels that can do all of this. The tricky one is "trouble shooting" which even the best developers have a hard time doing. I have come to believe that being able to troubleshoot expertly is a gift...or at least a good strategy/textsim gamer.

- Familiarity with security standards/issues (PKI, SSL, HTTPs, etc.), backend database interfacing (JDBC, ODBC, ASP), interfacing with Queues and mail providers (JMS, SMTP, MIME), front-end database reporting tools (Cristal Reports, etc.),

Good grief. I think just knowing what all of these alphabet soups are would count for familiarity. Crystal Reports have now become embedded in many application development environments (I got it with my GIS SDK but haven't had the need to do anything with it yet).

- Good experience with SQL databases (Oracle, DB2, MySQL, SQL Server, Access, etc.), Web Servers (IIS, Apache, TomCat, etc.), NT/W2000 platforms, networking with TCP/IP, MS Office automation tools (Word, Excel, Access, Outlook, Power Point),

Translation: OleDbConnection, OleDbAdapter, OleDbReader.

- Good experience with Web development/administration/maintenance tools, such as PhotoShop, FrontPage, DreamWeaver,

PhotoShop has become a web development tool? FrontPage/DW have been around a long time. Even I do all of my eBay stuff with FP and html tagging.

- Good understanding and application of state of-the-art Web design/development products/tools/best practices,

Ahh. Now we are getting into something beyond knowing the tools. In my experience of having staff doing this stuff since the mid-90s, most don't even know what "best practices" are. I am still of the opinion that one of the primary reasons for the dotcom crash was way too many hotshot mechanics disdainful of legacy and emerging IT business processes and practices.

- Business requirement specification, Modeling and Web Application Architecture,

Redundant.

- Highly developed analytical, problem solving and decision making,

Lol. Probably comes with the territory for the most part, except many fall down on decision making unless guided by a good manager. Too many wanting to fit the application to the tool(s) and not the other way around as it should be.

- Should be conversant with Change / Problem / Issue Management,

In other words, know how to be part of a development team with the expectation of carrying a project through its full development cycle.

- Quality Assurance Testing of Web applications,

Know how to debug.

- Web End-to-end Testing Tools and Techniques

More tools that are part of the usual cycle.

- Effective Presentation Techniques

Here is where some will fail. I have too many geeks working on my team that can only talk in jargon and alphabet soups. We just let other make presentations instead.

- Documentation,

The bane of programmers. Even I and my staff do a poor job at this but with Quality By Design, auditing and CM tools become more popular (and critical) (along with XML standards), this is absolutely a requirement.

- Oral and Written Communication

THE MOST IMPORTANT TOOL, imo. In the many interviews I have conducted with a team, we weight this very highly and have rejected many superb programmers because they cannot communicate effectively (particular written). If you only learn ONE thing in college, learn how to write and present effectively. The rest you can pick up on your own.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

If you only learn ONE thing in college, learn how to write and present effectively.[/b]

Amen to that.

The ability to communicate ideas & concepts clearly is darned near a dying art as far as I can tell over the past 10 years. But it's a big part of what got me where I am today (well, that and marrying well )

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Amen to that.

The ability to communicate ideas & concepts clearly is darned near a dying art as far as I can tell over the past 10 years. But it's a big part of what got me where I am today (well, that and marrying well )

Now you wouldn't blame chat rooms, text messaging and l33t-speak would you?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

- Good experience with Web content management, trouble shooting, site administration and related tools, Web site trend/traffic monitoring/analysis,

All good (and even bad) content application (like vB) comes with control panels that can do all of this.

You've seen a control panel that can do web traffic analysis? I'd like to buy it. Depending on the site, traffic analysis can be practically an entire job on its own. "The uptime was 99.9%" might count as anaylsis for some types ofsites, but it a lot of cases you need some serious expertise and a tech guy is unlikely to have it.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

You've seen a control panel that can do web traffic analysis? I'd like to buy it. Depending on the site, traffic analysis can be practically an entire job on its own. "The uptime was 99.9%" might count as anaylsis for some types ofsites, but it a lot of cases you need some serious expertise and a tech guy is unlikely to have it.

I recall, from years ago, Unix panels that tracks pings, snoops, traces, packet loadings and (can't think of the term) where you can see not only the path but volume as well. But I believe you, I'm sure this can get fairly sophisticated, esp. when load balancing.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I recall, from years ago, Unix panels that tracks pings, snoops, traces, packet loadings and (can't think of the term) where you can see not only the path but volume as well. But I believe you, I'm sure this can get fairly sophisticated, esp. when load balancing.

Are you talking about MRTG?

[dacman]

True Java can get into oop but not necessarily.

True Java is nothing but OOP.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by dacman

True Java can get into oop but not necessarily.

True Java is nothing but OOP.

Yes, but there's more to it that what Java has implemented.

[Daimyo]

The key line is

Expert Level Java / HTML / XML / XSL / PearlScript / CGI / JavaScript development

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone truly at an expert level in all seven of those. If you accept expert in one or two combined with pretty good experience in the rest it becomes very reasonable though.

ood experience with SQL databases (Oracle, DB2, MySQL, SQL Server, Access, etc.), Web Servers (IIS, Apache, TomCat, etc.), NT/W2000 platforms, networking with TCP/IP, MS Office automation tools (Word, Excel, Access, Outlook, Power Point),
- Good experience with Web development/administration/maintenance tools, such as PhotoShop, FrontPage, DreamWeaver,
- Good understanding and application of state of-the-art Web design/development products/tools/best practices,

Anyone who has developed dynamic web apps should have good experience with some sort of SQL based application (I interpret that to mean you can write T-SQL statements, develop stored procedures, run traces for debugging, etc) and probably one web platform.

People who list "good TCP/IP experience" is a pet peeve of mine... to me good TCP/IP experience means you can decode raw TCP/IP packets and troubleshoot at that level, but I highly doubt that's what they mean (or anyone who lists in on their resume other than me). I doubt they even care much about understanding the protocol, but probably just care that you know what an IP and subnet mask are...

The other stuff there is pretty basic... even if you're not in IT you better know how to use Office and some sort html editor. The photoshop thing is funny because I'd bet you don't need anywhere near good photoshop experience for that job -- probably know what photoshop is is enough.

Everything else is either set to a pretty low standard (familarity) or none-technical stuff (Should be conversant with Change / Problem / Issue Management) that shows you have common sense and/or understand the business side of IT.

Heck, I'm not even a programmer (security admin), but if I could substitute .NET for Java, VBScript for PERLScript, and ASP/ASP.NET for CGI I think I'd even qualify.