I'd like an Iraq burger, no WMD or Saddam please

[Airhog]

So now that we have basically conquer...I mean liberated Iraq, we should start seeing WMD. This war might be justified if he does has a huge stash of WMD. The media hasnt really mentioned anything in the last few days about them. It shouldnt take very long to discover some proof that he had the weapons.

And im not talking just one or two drums of mustard gas. He was supposed to have tons of the stuff, and If he did then where is it?
Maybe he buried it in the desert? Maybe he gave it away to some other country or a terrorist group.

So what if no weapons are ever found? What then? How will the world react to this?


Also, what happened to saddam or his top ranked officals? This is another subject im surpised that the media hasnt brought up more.
If they didnt get saddam, will he try to raise an army after we leave, and take back iraq?

[Chief Rum]

To be honest, I don't think it really matters anymore if they find a huge stash of WMD, at least not with regards to Iraq. Historians may make a big deal of it, and I am sure the Democrats will in 2004, but other than that, I think the circumstances involved in this war will heavily mitigate backlash about that.

For one thing, some signs of WMD's have been found. Some have been disproven. Others have not. Also, it is still a known fact that Saddam has used chemical weapons before, and that he had a huge stockpile of them as of '98 that has never been accounted for. So even if no more weapons are found, I don't think you'll see much backlash because of it.

Another huge factor in this is the war itself. It was short, and relatively mild on the casualty-scale. The images of the people of Iraq cheering for the arrival of American soldiers and of them defiling symbols of Saddam and his regime are vivid and have been shown everywhere. And what resistance Iraq showed was fraught with potential war crime acts, and also there is their questionable treatment of POWs.

So basically, we have proven Saddam was an evil bastard who should have been gotten rid of a long time ago, and we did it in a relatively painless manner (for coalition forces). I think the greater good of what we have done outweighs the questionable circumstances or the intentions with which we first invaded.

If Bill Gates donates a billion dollars to charity for a tax break, does not that billion dollars still do good?

Chief Rum

[ACStrider]

I said this in another thread, and I'll say it again. Just because we haven't come forward with a stockpile of confirmed WMD (A) doesn't mean that we haven't found any and (B) doesn't mean that there aren't any out there.

The fact is that while the greater portion of the fighting is over, there is still resistance out there. Our armed forces have had to dismantle Hussein's army, free the land, restore order, preserve order (in the north) and root out any remaining resistance. All this in a matter of a few weeks. Cut them a little slack. To complicate the matter, there have been instances where we have found chemicals and have had people prematurely come out saying that they were WMD only to be proven wrong. Could it be that they actually are in possession of WMD but haven't done the thourough testing reqired to validate it? Could it be that there are more pressing issues at the moment then to go searching through underground labs, desert locations and bombed out buildings in search of contraband?

Any way you look at it this has been a successful campaign that has done the US, the Iraqi people and the world a great service. Will WMD be found? I can't tell you. I think they will because Saddam and his regime have proven themselves to be viscious, tyrannical and ruthless. They have possessed and used WMD in the past, and NEVER proved that they rid themselves of these weapons.

[sachmo71]

Well, on the subject of people prematurely saying that chemical weapons have been found only to be proved wrong...don't worry about it. The reporters had a responsibility to do that. They did a great job, and all for the good of America.

[JPhillips]

ACStrider: From my understanding we do have teams of folks searching labs and such for WMD. I'm pretty sure Franks has said as much at siome point.

I have a big problem with the WMD stuff. I was reluctantly in favor of military action, and I didn't really doubt the admin when they kept saying they had very specific evidence about WMD. Well, if we had such specific evidence why can't we find the stuff now? Did we not have the great evidence that we said we did? And if we exaggerated what we had then, why should I believe the admin now when they say they have evidence of Syria's WMD but can't share much because they want to keep their sources safe?

We had plenty of good arguments for dealing with Iraq, but the admin exaggerated evidence, used fake evidence(perhaps not knowingly), and made a big deal out of British intel docs that turned out to be plagarized from a master's thesis. Now it looks like we may have been stretching the truth regarding our WMD evidence. I wish the admin would have actually stuck to good arguments for dealing with Iraq rather than continually trying to find the argument that played the best politically.

"AHA! What if we called it liberating the Iraqi people?"

[Chief Rum]

Generally, JPhillips I agree with what you just said. The only place I would differ is the specificity of this evidence. Is this a fact established somewhere within administration rhetoric, or is it just your impression of that? For example, no specifics have really been given, so I'm not sure how specific you are assuming the evidence is, or why you assume the specific evidence is location-related, rather than in other regards. On what do you base your assumption that we know exactly where the stuff is?

I think we need a bit more information before we start tossing out allegations of stretching the truth about WMDs. The truth is we just don't know yet, and we need to give coalition forces the time to do their job. There's still sporadic fighting going there, not to mention the numerous other country-running tasks they are trying to take care of right now. Franks said there are still some 3,000 sites left to be searched, and that's probably just based on pre-war intel.

Chief Rum

[44Niners]

There is a preponderance of evidence that they do have WMD. Finding them in a country as large as Iraq will not be easy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html

mms://media3.online.pbs.org/media4/frontline/roadtowar/windows/roadtowar_hi.wmv

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/unscom/experts/defectors.html

http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1998/mj98/mj98albright.html

[Easy Mac]

I think the thing is, they promised things in these wars they haven't delivered (Bin Laden, Saddam (maybe), WMD's). But thats the nature of the beast of politics. You shift focus just enough from things you don't want to be looked at (*cough* Clinton *cough*) and state other goals. Its how politics work. I don't begrudge the administration for that, its what all politicians do. I just think we have to find something and really reform Iraq, or else its going to be a colossal failure (not squid)

[Bee]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Finding them in a country as large as Iraq will not be easy.

That must be why we were so patient with the UN Inspection team.

[Hammer755]

Airhog,

I believe those are totally fair questions you asked. I think the answer to all of them is that this is not over yet. We are still not done in Afghanistan, let alone Iraq. The search for bin Laden, WMD, and Saddam Hussein continues and will continue for quite some time.

[Fidatelo]

Originally posted by Hammer755
The search for bin Laden, WMD, and Saddam Hussein continues and will continue for quite some time.

Did you just channel OJ right there? I can just picture, 6 months from now Bush is on the 8th green: "The hunt for the real killers is not over!"

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Fidatelo
Did you just channel OJ right there? I can just picture, 6 months from now Bush is on the 8th green: "The hunt for the real killers is not over!"

If there are no WMD, he must be set free!!!

[Fidatelo]

Saddam at War Crimes trial:

"See, the plutonium shell... ergh!... it does not... unh!.... fit into this warhead!"

[Hammer755]

Here's an article I just came across that discusses Saddam's 'Systematic Concealment Organization.' It is run like a corporation, with detail organization charts even.

The article is very long, I'll post a link and the conclusion.

How Iraq conceals and obtains its Weapons of Mass Destruction

CONCLUSION

The vast nature of Saddam’s concealment apparatus is an indication of how much he has invested in protecting the “crown jewels” of his military arsenal.

A select committee under the supervision of Presidential Secretary ‘Abid Hamid Mahmud makes the decisions regarding concealment. However, Saddam Hussein also assigns many duties regarding WMD to each of the agencies of this apparatus, following his policy that competition will produce better results, thus decentralizing the network ostensibly centered around Mahmud.

For example, both the Presidential Secretary and Special Security rival each other for operational control of the concealment process. MIMI, MIC, Special Security and General Intelligence all play a role in covert procurement of Iraq’s WMD technology in foreign countries. The Special Committee of the National Security Council and the National Monitoring Directorate were designed to have identical missions. Both the SRG and the Emergency Forces compete in protecting, moving and concealing Iraq’s programs. Special Security and General Intelligence are both responsible for providing security for Iraq’s military facilities. In Saddam’s vision, if one agency fails in its mandate, another will compensate for its failure.

The Iraqi concealment apparatus has over seven years of experience now in countering UN inspections, as well as a four year “window-of-opportunity” to hide, conceal and camouflage its WMD program in the absence of any inspectors. The concealment apparatus benefited from these years of expertise to call on numerous intelligence agents, scientists, and soldiers to fill it ranks.

French inspectors on the UNMOVIC team have remarked that the Iraqis have made “progress in their know-how and ability to hide things in the twelve and a half years of embargo.”(118) Other inspectors expressed how impressed they were with the apparatus’s professional skill, which makes it “difficult to find irrefutable proof and evidence of flagrant violations.”(119)

The UNMOVIC team in Iraq has a formidable adversary. UN inspections have slowed Iraq’s progress in further developing its WMD capability, but the scope of this concealment apparatus could indicate that many of these programs remain largely intact.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Hammer755

French inspectors on the UNMOVIC team have remarked that the Iraqis have made “progress in their know-how and ability to hide things in the twelve and a half years of embargo.”

Well, if the French were impressed with his ability to hide, I am too.