Teens Acquitted of Murdering Illegal
 

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see. Not much different from the old days when all white juries acquitted people of lynching black men. Had been following it throughout and admit that I'm not surprised considering the part of the country this took place in. Hopefully the Feds pursue charges.

No murder conviction in Mexican immigrant's beating death - CNN.com

Give that quote to the local tourism board.

Way to be ignorant yourself there, chief.

Sad to say but I am not surprised by this... the more things change the more they stay the same. Hopefully justice will be served.

I dunno. There are some that agree with RM:

Residents disagree on verdict | republicanherald.com | The Republican-Herald



I found this to be quite funny though:


I like how MALDEF wants the laws to be upheld. I wonder how much they're working to get rid of the illegal immigrants?

On an entirely different note, sometimes I get tired of the United States trying to be holier than thou. If we're going to treat our illegal Mexican immigrants properly, I'd like to have our citizens get treated properly in Mexico who are there legally.

If the report describing his immigration status is accurate then I couldn't agree more. They should have been brought to justice a long time ago.

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.


It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

Acquittal = Racism?

Convictions are hard in this country. There are many criminals roaming the street. Very, very few charges result in a conviction on the original charge.

That's party because jurors can be morons, but it's mostly because defense attorneys have a lot more leeway when it comes to ethics (because you can't appeal an acquittal, even if they say, lie about the facts, or attempt to appeal to the subtle racism of the jury.) Happens all the time.

It's funny to see things turned around - the anti-prosecution/law enforcement types get a sense of how hard it is when it's a personal cause to them.

Feel better now after your little rant? Would hate to think it was completely wasted.

Having lived close to that region for many, many years, and having spent a good bit of time there, I wouldn't necessarily say it's "racist".

It's "patriotic".

Well, to be fair the immigrants from Europe could either win "citizenship" by war or through diplomacy. Comparing the 1400s to now is ridiculous. (BTW, I am a legal immigrant.)

My point is that it's funny to me that an organization which wants to uphold certain laws doesn't necessarily find it troublesome that other laws are being broken. Granted, MALDEF is working towards a better immigration system.

I used to live in Quakertown, not to far away and I would say this is accurate.

I'm sorry but this is such a tired argument.

That's like saying if my great grandfather has slaves I should somehow be responsible.

It was a totally different time back then.

Nothing to do with the horrible thing that happened, but I find it mind-boggling that there are people ignorant enough to think that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Just wow.

(edit: I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, just that I don't think anyone can say that it isn't a problem at all)

My father grew up in that town. I haven't been back there in around 5 or 6 years since my grandfather died.

I agree this seems pretty gross, but after the racism exhibited by the OJ jury, nothing suprises me anymore.

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

The problem is that these are the people holding up anything sensible from getting done.

As I've said before, I employ what are likely to be illegal immigrants (but I submit ALL their paperwork to the government even though it is likely fabricated). I'm not sure anybody could argue that I'm looking to undercut American workers, my guys get compensated better than most factories pay in the area.

And to appease the anti-immigration folks, ALL of my employees go back to their home country after two or three years.

So why the hell can't we get a guest worker program going?

OMG...so true!!!

The jury foreman came out and said it himself.

Jury Foreman Calls Other Jurors Racist - WNEP

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but it's widely known as a rather racist area. Any remember these videos from the area?

I think this is because Hazelton (which outlawed housing to immigrants, I believe) is within a short driving distance to Pottsville.

That said, the area is still pretty...well, long in the tooth.

What do you think is the biggest problems with illegal immigration? Not trying to start anything, but I've just never noticed this massive problem with illegals that others are having.

Where do you live, Rain?

Yes, yes.

I was kind of wondering the same thing, might be an attractive alternative locale at some point.

Keep trying to paint a whole area with a broad brush.

After all, it's not like you generalize anything you've ever said at FOFC.

"Widely known" = lol

Dola

I also love where you got that video. Let me run to find some Republican websites with videos showing extreme left-wing individuals in action to counter your "evidence".

lol, the title within the video itself should pretty much tell you everything that you need to know about it.

Chicago

It's par for the course for Rainmaker.

You truly believe that if it was 4 Mexican kids who killed a white guy that they wouldn't have been found guilty?

Or.........Maybe it was because the key witnesses were all pretty much involved in the altercation and there was no way to get the straight story about an attack that is pretty clearly racially motivated.

Either way you look at it racism is involved and as usual manifests itself in the most chickenshit of ways possible.

Well, might not be as much an issue in Chicago.

It's definitely an issue in SoCal, one of the biggest actually.

Yep, I'll admit this probably factors into my attitude, living in Wisconsin, since we don't see illegal immigrants in as large of numbers here. Also, while I don't really want to paint with a broad brush, I'd say in general we get a more motivated immigrant because they have a greater distance to travel to get here and our winters suck to them. Sure, there are bad apples here, but the great majority of them are here and not hurting a thing (in most cases, paying into social security which they'll never collect).

That said, I'm all for deporting those involved in crime (other than the crime of simply being here). I'm not sure how to handle granting citizenship, and I wonder what % actually desire citizenship. None of my employees are interested in staying here, and most are actually entrepreneurs from Nicaragua that have no way to raise capital in their home country, and come here and work for a few years to start businesses back in Nicaragua.

And they absolutely adore Ronald Reagan, being former Contras.

What are the issues in SoCal? There is a large Mexican population here in Chicago in many parts but they've never bothered me or caused any issues in my life. In fact, it's in their best interest to stay out of any trouble they can.

I will actually go with the curve here, and blame A-Rod for this.

Well given that the jury, well the foreman, said that the evidence didn't support the charges, I'd like to have enough faith in the system to state that such a verdict would be reasonable. It should be pretty clear that there is more at play here than four white guys beating up a Mexican kid. Was he alone? Was he targetted because he was Mexican? Was it just a stupid teen age brawl, that had nothing to do with race?

So given the facts available to us, it certainly shouldn't be a stretch to say that the acquittal was a reasonable outcome.


I'm about as law abiding a citizen as possible. I back law enforcement at prett much all opportunity. I predicted the Rodney King verdict, as I followed it from a distance, and knew the case being made was weak weak weak. So stating those facts. Last year I was on a jury, and basically acquitted a hardened repeat felon because I believed the cop was making shit up. The charge was only drunk driving, but still. It is up to the prosecution to build and present a case. If the jury acquits it isn't always because they are a bunch of a racists.

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

Colombus Day would be more bullshit. After all, it's spelled Columbus. Accept no imitations. As for the sins of the "white man", you realize that the New World wasn't some sort of sunny-skied utopia, right?

This is one of my favorite pieces of Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence":

The pattern is absolutely repeated in Arizona and working for a State Medicaid plan it is a huge strain on an already depleted budget, despite measures inacted to prevent use of state services by Illegals.

Here in North Carolina, unlicensed / uninsured / drunk driving is probably the biggest issue that impacts folks on a fairly regular basis.

Yeah, that's main thing I was referring to with the "Traffic/Driving" issue I pointed out above. The other issues are just as big, but that one also stands out in CA.

It's also an issue in education.

Yeah, that's covered under "illegals taking advantage of social services in the US", but you're right, that particular issue should be highlighted under that, as well as use of medical services at public hospitals where they can't turn people away (I'm talking elective/non-critical type stuff, all humans, no matter there status should and do receive emergency services).

Don't these people also bring in revenues to the state through the various taxes that they have to pay? Or business to local store owners? How about the cheap labor that allows certain businesses to thrive

As for the social services argument, it seems your issue would be more with poor people than illegals. They take advantage of costly social services while contributing nothing to the pot as well. Cutting back on those services in general would seem to alleviate this problem.

I agree with the other arguments except the jobs one. I think it's somewhat silly when people complain about that. But traffic and overpopulation in areas would be an issue. I'm definitely for better enforcement of our borders but I do think the hardcore groups hurt the cause and spread apocalyptic jibberish to muddy their point.

If you're being paid under the table, you're not paying income tax. Sales tax on purchases isn't enough to justify wholesale usage of the system, while contributing comparatively little. That cheap labor can be (and is) done by legal immigrants. It can also now be done by some of the millions of desperate job seekers in California currently, where our unemployment rate is significantly higher than the rest of the country's. And if businesses need to pay under the table, cheap and illegal labor to survive, they should not be surviving, and be replaced by more efficient businesses in the capitalistic model.


No, poor but legal people pay taxes. They have the same right to those services as anyone. Poor people do contribute to the pot. Cutting back on services to the poor will likely just result in an increase in crime.


I think with the jobs one, you don't know just how prevalent legal immigration is here. There are plenty of good people I know, Mexicans/South Americans for the most part, who got here legally and are working hard for their families here, and they are definitely hurt by illegal immigration. It's a huge issue for them (as is the likelihood that the recession is actually causing established social classes--i.e. whites and blacks, suburban middle classers--to take jobs they are overqualified for to pay the bills, which shrinks the job market for legal immigrants).

So do illegal immigrants.

Not the two big ones (income and property).

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.

How exactly do illegal immigrants paid under the table pay income taxes?

And the ones that do (i.e. the ones that submit illegal paperwork) can't be paid under the minimum, thus removing the primary advantage to hiring them froma business perspective.

Those illegals I have less of a problem with, although I would prefer they be part of a guest worker program and have an official status.

You would be surprised how many don't, especially in the contruction and farm labor sectors.

Or...the prosecutor just did his job poorly.

Unlike you, I actually am from Northeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania and have witnessed first-hand inadequacies of the judicial system in various Keystone counties.

For example: Judges take bribes to send youth to private prisons - The Gathering For Justice

But, nah, it's the jurors fault for the prosecution's inability to prove a reasonable doubt. Let's leave lawyers who do a crappy job off the hook.

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants that are paid under the table.

I'm talking about the ones with fake paperwork but file taxes, which is the norm around here, not the exception. Paying under the minimum is NOT why people hire illegal immigrants around here.

Here is a link that talks about an estimate of how much they pay in.

If paying under the minimum wage is the sole purpose of hiring illegal immigrants, then it wouldn't make sense for me to be paying them $13-$16/hour but I do. That's in line with what factories pay around here. We are probably higher than most farms, but I honestly don't know of any farms that do pay under the table. The only attempts at defrauding the system I've encountered were some of my employees claiming to have many more children than they actually had. A 22 year old claimed to have 8 kids, and when we told him that would raise the suspicion of INS (even though it probably wouldn't have) he quickly recanted and said he had 2.

Again, I'm sure paying under the table is probably prevalent down where you come from. I've got nothing against punishing these employers. But the notion that the only reason people hire illegal immigrants is to pay under the minimum wage is highly misguided and not at all true.

Actually, I am a farmer, so I know a little about that sector.

Being paid under the table is not a illegal only problem. I'd imagine most servers don't report all their tips and that there are thousands of jobs that are paid cash and not reported as income. This would appear to be an issue with businesses trying to avoid having to pay payroll taxes.


Well 40% of our country doesn't pay federal income tax. In California, those making small hourly wages are certainly not coming close to contributing and justifying their usage of the system. I think it's fine to say that people shouldn't get services if they aren't paying into the pot, but that should be a universal view toward all people who are not paying in, including those who are unemployed (about 10% of California's population).

I think that's a simplistic view of how illegals participate in our economy. Cheap labor has a trickle down effect on everyone. You enjoy not having to pay a lot of money for fruit at the grocery store. That cost is low because they aren't paying high wages for people to pick it. You enjoy paying a reasonable price at a restaurant for your meal which wouldn't be possible without cheap labor washing dishes. Most major companies in this country rely on cheap labor from somewhere. I'd rather it be in the U.S. with a mix of illegals and legal residents than some factory in China where no one hear sees a dime.

If a poor, uneducated guy who crossed the border with nothing but the shirt on his back is able to beat you out for a job, then it's time to look in the mirror and change something. There is a reason we don't see brain surgeons whining about losing jobs to illegals. Those who are losing jobs should probably get more education or acquire a valuable skill. Just being a resident here doesn't mean you should have a job if you are unqualified and unskilled.

Did you not read one of the articles? The foreman himself said that some on the jury were racist and had made up their minds already.

Shitty prosecutor or not, this case wasn't rocket science. You don't need four healthy guys doing that much damage in "self-defense". If they can't figure out that this was murder, then they are fucking idiots.

They do pay property taxes in a way. Those are factored into the cost of rent and passed on to the renters.

What if the foreman himself is racist? Since when did the foreman become lord of the courtroom and all knowing about the prejudices of his fellow jurors?

Also, I'm glad you are now an expert on this case. When did you discover this outrage and become so fully convinced that you know everything that occured. After all, you must've been sitting in the courtroom for the trial, right?

I'm glad we can all learn from courageous stance you've taken against this outcome. I'm sure those 14 hours were a lot of pain and deliberation in your own mind.

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

Good, I'm glad you agree with me that we need more information before declaring those guilty of crimes. More is needed.

They did not beat hiim to death IIRC. He died from complications arising from the beating. There's a huge difference there in intent.

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

My Crim's a little bit rusty, but if the guy would have lived but for doctor's error, then that might be a superceding cause for the death (although both could be charged).

THat depends really. Did the injury itself kill him? then yes. Did he die of a heart attack two days later? then probably not. Depends entirely on wether the CAUSE of death was the wounds YOU inflicted and if in fact ins hooting him it can be proved that you were TRYING to kill him.

Murder isn't black and white, its not I hit you you die I get convicted of murder. Life is full of shadows and shades.

I object severely to that statement

My ancestors came here for religious freedom, not because of taxes.

Have you seen Twelve Angry Men :)

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

But you're in Wisconsin. I'm sure farming is different down here in SoCal than it is up there.

Not my choice of words. The choice of the police, doctors, and prosecutors.

Yes, when they are talking about "supporting" or "prolonging" something, not in the context you are using.

Is your argument about the case really coming down to semantics and how a random word is used?

I mean if you have some sort of evidence that shows that the injuries Luis Ramirez received during the fight were not the result of his death, then great. But if your argument in the case is that the men should be innocent because I used the word sustained, then I don't know what else to say.

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

Ok, so I could certianly understand manslaughter charges.

Can you PROVE they wanted to KILL him?

Therein lies the real difference.

There are certainly plenty of jobs that are paid under the table, and they are all illegal, yes, no matter who's being paid. To act like this excuses the fact that an immense amount of these jobs are being done by illegals, though, is irresponsible of you. Just because it's not 100% illegals responsible for this doesn't mean it's not an illegal immigration problem.

By the by, I am a server, part time, here in CA, and we're required to report at least 8% of our sales as tip income, in addition to our wages (which in CA is the minimum, not what is done in some other states, where there is a special, much lower minimum for tipped employees). 8% is not the standard 15% given for restaurant service, no, but that additional 7% is also eaten away at in the form of tip outs, to bussers, bartenders, hostesses and the like, so that servers will maybe get away with 3% or so of their tipping wages as unclaimed tipping income. This is as wrong as anyone else, but these servers do still pay in significantly in income taxes, because whereas 3% of their tipping income may go unclaimed, 8% certainly is, and this is enforced by restaurants, because if the restaurant numebrs don't add up, the feds and state come after the restaurants first. Oh, and I claim 100% of my tips (not that you care, but figured I would say it).


What 40%? You mean the sick, the elderly, children? Every society bares those costs. It's called humanity. All workers drawing a paycheck on the up and up is required to pay income tax. Not everyone is going to get out of the system what they put in. Some will take more, some will take less. Point is, though, everyone's paying in--except under the table paid illegals, that is. Except for transients and those who for whatever reason have given up ever being employed, most of that 10% are fervently trying to find employment. As with the sick, elderly and children, this is a cost any society willingly bares. Once again, none of this leads one to the conclusion that illegal immigration is not a problem.


Guess what? That cheap labor doesn't keep much of its money here in the US. It sends it back home. So you're not seeing much of those dimes either way. Simplistic or not, it's the truth. The economy will adjust, and life will go on. None of this justifies illegal immigration. It's not the answer to stick with a current problem to avoid a potential problem down the road.


The people being beat out for those jobs are most often not Americans, but illegal immigrants. Read the part you quoted of me to which this is a response to. These are legal immigrants who did things the right way and came to this country for a chance at a better life, and they are losing their jobs to their own former countrymen, who are here because they broke the law to get here and are getting paid less than what legal immigrants are able to take as honest, tax paying employees.

In Socal There indeed IS a line. On damned near every street corner. Illegal and elgal alike. The difference is the illegals are willing 99.999 times out of 100 work for a lot less than legals.

FYI, circumvent labor laws == money. It's always about money (for businesses).

If people can't be found for a job, than those businesses need to improve their wages, or get out of the game altogether. It's called capitalism.

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Nail on the head.

Rain, come on out to LA. I'll take you on a tour of the Home Depots in the area, and you tell me if there is a labor shortage.

On the flip side, if you want to make more money, make yourself valuable. Get an education and acquire skills in demand. Like I said, there aren't brain surgeons sitting around bitching about the illegals taking all their jobs.

Labor laws do not equal capitalism. In a true capitalist system, companies would hire who they want for what they want. There wouldn't be minimum wage requirements, payroll taxes, and workman's comp. You can't say it's capitalism for business owners but socialism for workers.

Want to clarify this for us Jon? While I understand your sentiment as a puritanical right wing freak bastard, I'm wondering at the "common criminal" notation. Other than being an immigrant I'm not seeing anything in the articles that points to the dead kid as a criminal?

Common criminal? He was an undocumented person. That's like saying we shouldn't care when a guy is murdered who had an expired drivers license.

Just admit you're wrong and we'll move on.

Considering your track record, I'm not holding my breath.

No thanks, your taxes are too high. :)

If someone is sitting in a Home Depot parking lot who is uneducated and unskilled, is it not their fault too? I guess I look at it a different way. If you're competing with these illegals for jobs, it's probably time to make yourself more valuable in the work force. You can't demand higher pay for jobs that require nothing but a working pulse.

I'm sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood both the thread title and the explicit reference in the linked article.

So I'll ask a simple question or two, maybe I'm working from bad info somewhere.
1) Was he in the country legally?

2) Was his presence in the country legal at any point? (i.e. did he maybe enter legally and then overstay a visa or something like that)

I'm working from the understanding that the answer to both question is no, but please straighten me out if that's not right.

Speaking only from my own point of view, we are essentially competing with factories, as my farm is essentially a milk factory.

Normal factories can pick and choose when it can shut down or produce at a lower capacity. My factory is dealing with living and breathing animals that the switch can't simply be turned off. We are operating 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

So given the choice between a similar paying factory job that is a day job with weekends off, and a farming job that entails working plenty of nights and weekends, which would be more attractive? Oh and in most factory jobs, getting covered with manure isn't part of the normal day.

Temporary workers fit my operation very well. For the most part, they are here to work and that's about it. Their families remain in their native country so they don't desire time off on weekends to spend with their families or normal working hours.

I also believe I am getting a higher quality worker. I'd essentially be scraping the bottom of the barrel by hiring American workers. The unemployable in many cases. The economy hasn't hit this area as hard as SoCal. The Nicaraguans I hire are from families that I've worked closely with for the past three or four years. They take turns coming to the United States and bring a brother or cousin here a month or two before they leave in order to train them before their departure. With Americans, it's usually two weeks notice and there you're stuck looking for somebody. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when you have an opportunity to have a seamless transition, why not take it?

The language barrier is not a problem in my case either, as I am semi-fluent in Spanish and also have two bilingual people on staff (both Mexican). I could go on and on about advantages to hiring the people that I hire and it has nothing to do with paying a lower wage.


In terms of dairy farming, the labor practices are fairly similar between California and Wisconsin. Now when you talk about produce farming, that is probably where the differences come in.

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

I'm really clad Christ didn't feel same way about those two guys on the crosses next to him.

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. The police officer surely doesn't put a bullet in your head if you drive around without a license.

Lungs, what part of Wisconsin are you in if you don't mind me asking? I got my undergraduate at Winona but spent a lot of time in LaCrosse and even worked in Arcadia for a couple years.

About a half hour northwest of Madison.

The people who do these jobs, getting an education and acquiring in demand skills is not an easy option, and for some, isn't available at all. Try to tell the hard working legal emigre from Mexico that to save his job washing dishes he's about to lose to an illegal immigrant, he's going to have to stop working his second job--which he can't afford to lose so he can feed his family--so he can go to school--which he can't afford--to get the education you say is there and available for him.

This is an irrelevant point to the discussion, and I am not sure why you're bringing it up, except perhaps to give yourself straw man fuel, when the real merits of your argument are lacking. Remember, the original point is that illegal immigration is a problem and represents a serious burden for some states. Current residents improving their education or their job skills, while fine and dandy, has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, which would still exist either way. So stop arguing something pointless and get back on the subject.

We don't have a true capitalistic society, but a general one. It's capitalism within the confines of the laws the government places on it, which includes labor laws. These laws are there to protect workers, and, yes, citizens. Legal ones who pay taxes. These laws also protect legal immigrants, BTW. Within the confines of that system, though, we do indeed have capitalism as our basic system of economics, and in that system it is survival of the fittest. If businesses can't get by without breaking the rules, they should not survive. And if you think other companies won't come in to replace them just fine, you're fooling yourself.

See you're wrong in that you're arguing that the situation fits a murder charge. You're saying they should be convicted of murder as charged, when the articles I just read through seem more like a teen brawl that got out of hand. Murder requires intent to kill (in most cases) and if the DA was smarter than the average turnip he would have gone for multiple charges of manslaughter and probably gotten his convictions. But Manslaughter doesn't make big headlines so based on what I've read it looks like the prosecutor's office fucked themselves.

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

Schmidty with the win.

If someone is uneducated and unskilled, that can be because of the choices they made, but is also likely the lack of choices they were given. You do look at it in a different way. You believe that there are jobs in this country only fit for illegals to do. I believe that if a job needs doing that a business will pay for because it will generate revenue, that it is worthy of being done by anyone, and paid to the level of its value in generating said revenue. And that that by legal requirement is done within the realm of labor law (and thus by legal workers). It's not that people who are unskilled/uneducated should be able to be better than illegals at that job, it's that they shouldn't have to compete with those illegal workers in the first place. It's not their job to protect their right to earn a living--it's the government's.

And believe it or not, a "working pulse" is all that's needed to draw a minimum wage in this country. If you have a problem with where that wage level is set, your problem is not here, but with your Congressman.

Wow Jon, just fucking wow. With as little as I think of you ever, you mange to somehow prove what an utter and complete waste of human flesh you really are time and time again.