Yes. If these convos take place...

"See, uh, like I have this new game that like I want to make. It would be so cool if you would look at my design document dude. Huh? Awesome!"

"I have a desigin document for a game I have been working on that I would like you to look at, thank you."


I know I would certainly give more time to the 2nd person vs the 1st person as I think any professional would in a similar situation.

And that has been my position throughout this thread.

Depends how bad the slang is. The most compitant developer I every worked with was from Africa and difficult to understand. Yet, he did amazing work as a developer. Because of that experience, I would give the slang guy the benefit of the doubt until I could see the work of both people.

That said, I don't know if I represent the majority. Nor would I behave like that was the case if I had a think accent or slang dialect.

**EDIT** Also, the nature of business I am in allows me to be more flexible in this area than if that person were working as a bank teller.

Because by using a term to describe someone's race you are making it a racial issue. A more accurate thing to have said would have been "Just another uneducated kid" if race doesn't have anything to do with it (as you are saying). By saying what you did, you;re only playing into noop's "they're all out to change me" paranoia.

Everyone that is out of college has been down that road, again, it has nothing to do with skin color.

Messageboards are racist

That is unfortunate. By not giving them equal time you may be missing out on the better idea. My point to Noop was that he would benefit from speaking proper english because it would give him more opportunities in life. That's the way things are. That doesn't mean that's the way things should be.

Doh< i wasn't clear. Slang as in my example to primelord not as an accent.

To me, I have no problem with accents. As you pointed out, someone from another country may be difficult to understand but as long as they talk professionaly I don't have a problem with it. The problem I have is people using "like, dude, swearing, etc..." in a business climate.

I think it always depends. Look at an easy case like a Southern accent. Even though people speak the same language, it is hard to rid yourself of that accent (although some people can do it with ease). I know in NYC some people hear a Southern accent and think "redneck." That is a problem in my mind. Yet I think those regional differences may always exist and that is why tolerance is important. Immigrants often assimilate language-wise within 1 or 2 generations, but there are always more immigrants, so that too is probably always going to be an issue.

slang is racist

Oprah is racist, that's no joke.

And just as with Arles's comment, I agree with this entirely.

I don't think that people with college degrees should automatically be considered better qualified for jobs. However, I made the choice to not get a degree, so that's just the way it is. I should not blame society and other people for my choice. It's the same sort of situation.

As I said, I'd give more time to the 2nd person. Never said I'd dismiss the the 1st person completely for the same reason you stated.

But as I think cthomer pointed out, resumes. You make an error-filled resume, whether it be grammar or something else and you're not going to get looked at. You WILL have your resume dumped in the trash in an instant.

According to someone I know who was there, the media misinterpreted the story. Cosby wasn't the keynote speaker or anything like that. He decided to go on a rant, after receiving an award for philanthrophy. So, if there was shock it was because they didn't expect him to go on like that.

She said that most of the people there received his remarks well, applauded and all that. So, it wasn't some big "outrage" like all the colored folks don't want to face the truth.

These threads are always interesting, no matter where you read them. Because it always makes me think people sit around wanting to say things like this all the time and they don't feel like they can say it until someone else does, then they can like "See, See...even a black person feels that way."

Cosby was preaching to the choir, saying nothing that no one in that audience didn't know. I don't see what the big deal is.

A definite fact. Actually - write it down!.

I was in charge of hiring for a position recently... and we had so many qualified applicants that I had to find a place to start. F'ed up resumes were dumped immediately, and that still left me with way too many resumes to reasonably handle.

The southern accent is the most notable one, and one I thought of immediately (actually, a New York accent is another one - and one that I find personally more grating than a southern accent :) ). That is an accent that covers a large area though, as opposed to what could be considered smaller "pockets". It's dominant in the region, but I wouldn't think that would be the case in other examples, such as an 'ebonic' dialect or a Hispanic one. I suppose I may be naive as to the extent that there is a lack of integration in some areas.

-----

I would have thought that wish mass communication forms such as radio and television, that some of these accents would have begun to largely go away...

And again I will say that I don't believe that is the way things should be. Certainly it depends on the job. If your resume has grammatical errors in it and part of your responsibilities will include writing then that is obviously a problem. If you are a computer programmer then it isn't always as big of a deal.

So in my programmer it is easy to just trash the resume with mistakes as assuming the person has no attention to detail. Again I agree with this assessment if there are spelling mistakes. Not running a spell checker in inexcusable. However despite the availabilty of a grammar checker in word it isn't always very good and really doesn't help if you don;t understand the rule anyway. That doesn't mean that person isn't a fantastic prgrammer. It only means he isn't a very good writer. Assuming he is just lazy can lead to a great employee not getting a chance because you made an assumption without getting to know the candidate.

It's the same thign with judgeing them by the way they speak. You are missing out by not giving them equal time just because they don't speak proper english. Everyone udnerstands that is the way the world is. However that doesn't mean you have to be that way.

Not in my neck of the woods. Walking down the street, you hear every accent, language, and variation on English.

There are more than just 1, and they're pretty different actually. Still - they're all horrible. :)

Long Island (the WORST), Brooklyn, Yonkers, all differnt, all bad.
South Jersey is also the typical "jersey" accent, and it's equally bad. Luckily, I've dodged them all - but deal with them on a regular basis in NYC.

And I understand that. I also understand why employers many times just cut out the resumes of candidates without degrees. Even though some of those may have actually been a better fit for the job. I still think it is unfortunate when a mistake like that costs a company a great employee.

Next time I try to relate to what noop is thinking from personal experience, I'll ask your permission. I apologize. If it's because it's something you don't want to hear, I don't apologize.

Call me a racist, I really don't care. Racism has nothing to do with words, it has everything to do with power. I contend you have little idea what actual racism is and that is good. Keep it that way.

I totally disagree, if you can't take the effort to proof-read your resume and make it the best it can be than you shouldn't get any job you apply for with that resume. I don't care if it's working at Burger King, writing code, or driving truck for a living. It goes to taking pride in what you do, attention to detail, and the willingness to do their best. If they can't be bothered to proofread their resume, why would I expect them to do their best in that job?

I understand what John Galt is saying - that it's unfortunate that one may be missing out on opportunities and/or learning something by not being more tolerant of a person's use of slang/hair length/body odor etc. However, in the business world especially, people just don't have the time (nor can they afford) to do this.

I see no problem with not hiring a person because they do not have the skills necessary to do the job correctly. Let's face it, communicaton is key in the business world. Whether you are directly interfacing with customers, or working in a team environment, the ability to effectively communicate your ideas is paramount. To call that prejudice is ridiculous. Can it occur? Certainly. But to make that jump right from the get-go is a bunch of "hooey".

I agree with you on an "ideals" level. On a practical level, don't you have to start discriminating somewhere though? I can't interview every applicant, and I think doing away with those who didn't take the time to present an error-free resume is a pretty fair way to start.

Wait, this sounds like my life!!!


And just from my perspective. HFP is the least racist guy I know. He's one of the good guys, so I don't really enjoy seeing him attacked like this.

I have lived in the South my entire life. My family are all from the South, and pretty much all have strong accents. Yet for some reason I do not. I credit it totally to television.

What am I not wanting to hear?

You're right, I don't have a lot of expereince with racism and I do try to keep it that way. Have I seen it? Yeah, a little but not a lot and I've tried to correct it whenever I see it (as I have in this thread).

I guess this is a north/south thing I don't know. I've lived in upstate NY my whole life and like I've said, I've seen racism but not to the extent that I think it happens in south (which I'm defining as below the mason-dixon line). I maintain that it's not as prevelent as noop makes it seem but as you are relating to noops personal experience, I base my beliefs off of my personal experiences.

ARGHHHHH I never said he was racist I said what he said was racist.

Truer words have never been spoken by mortal man.

Of course they all have spelling skill, but I do not. I also credit that to television.

edit: far from a dola.

Maybe I'll be a Senator too :) But I will have my eyes on the white house the whole time :)

I think this hits the nail on the head. Business resume screeners often have a limited timeframe to look through tons of resumes. Past experience (and studies) have shown that resumes with poor grammar or ones without college experience have a low probability in actually leading to that person being chosen for the position. Therefore, many will toss them out as a timesaver, even though there is a small chance they may be tossing out the best person.

Think of it like being a baseball scout. If someone comes in for a trial as a pitcher and they are 5-8 and throw 80 MPH tops, it's doubtful the scout will sign him even if he's had some level of success and may even have the potential to be the next great starter. The pitcher's initial presentation of himself puts him as a severe longshot to make it in the bigs.

As in many political threads, people seem to fear being called "prejudiced" or even worse, "racist" (even though no one ever actually is called "racist"). Making assumptions based on language variaitons is the very definition of prejudice (from dictionary.com)

1 a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

My point is that using language differences as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice. I know most people hate the idea that they could in fact be prejudiced, but IMO everyone of us is. That is how people work. The task for us, IMO, is to recognize our prejudices and try to minimize their effect on other people.

And just to preempt. I'm NOT saying communication isn't essential in the workplace. I'm saying that learning to tolerate different communication styles/accents/variations is something to which we should all aspire.

Using body odor as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice too, are you going to make that your next crusade?

And again I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I am talking about not understanding all of the grammatical rules. You see a mistake and assume that the person was lazy and didn't proof read his resume. However it is possible he didn't understand that he needed a cooma here or there or that he needs an ' in it's. Again I agree that is a huge problem if the person is going to be expected to write as part of his job. It's not nealry as big of a deal if he is being hired as a coder. Not it is certainly possible that the person is just lazy and didn't proof read, but you can't know for certain until you actually talk to that person.

While true, I think it's practically impossible. It would mean interviewing every applicant for every job.

sigh...

So when writing code it's ok if he doesn't proof check his work? Nah, he doesn't need that [ in there ;)

I'm sorry, if a person can't bother to do something that takes 5 seconds (hit spellcheck) or have someone look over their resume and it contains errors, then it's NOT getting looked at.

Seriously, do you ever read what other people say before you post?

As I've said, language is DIFFERENT than body odor (or most other examples) because it is much harder to adapt. Wearing deodorant is not the same thing as learning a second language with a conventional accent and with perfect spoken grammar.

No it's not. I don't really believe that anyone here is talking about changing people's accents. They are talking about the proper useage of language. No "like, uh, ya know, dude, awesome, rad, yo" is what they are talking about. Also, you have to speak english. As was pointed out by someone else, go over to say France and try getting a job by speaking only english and see how far you get.

My feelings/thoughts on this thread


1 - Bill Cosby Rocks, Black people need more leaders like him and less leaders like Jesse Jackson.

2 - Hopfully everyone in america will take note of what Bill said, not just black folks.

3 - Noop - You watch to much MTV and your confused. But don't worry, you'll grow out of it. But if you don't grow out of it, i'll see ya at the Mickey-D's drive thru window :) "Ya wan some fries wit dat dogg????

Seriously. Stop. Stop now. Try reading the thread again. All of this has been addressed and you ignore it. You do this in a lot of political threads. Stop. Please.

Believe me man, I spend more time talking to black people trying to motivate them out of the rut they are in then you would believe. A lot of it is fear and quite frankly we have put ourselves in that position through fear. It exists. Is it changing? Yes.

I seriously yell at my own race more than about anyone I know.

Wow, I hate to say this, but this sounds like a ton of whining self indulgent sympathy farming to me.

If you went through the work and effort to get the diploma, and more to get the degree, is it that much more effort on your part to learn to communbicate in a way that will all but guarentee you get a job? If you're unwillingness or inability to speak properly or at the very least coherently is what is keeping you from getting hired the fault does not lie with anyone but yourself for not making the effort to learn the good communications skills.

I admit I have a problem with people who can't or won't for whatever reason, learn to speak the language. Its not that I dislike their race creed color or anything else, its that If I can't UNDERSTAND you, how can you expect me to respect you? I don't expect someone in russia to give me a second look if I tried to go there and find work without first learning the proper language. I can speak any way I want when around those who understand me, but in mixed company its ignorant and rude to speak gibberish and then have the gall to wonder why everyone looks at me funny or won't offer me a job.

Businesses have every right to offer a lesser qualified person a job if they have better speaking skills, communication is the heartbeat of almost every company.

Why shouldn't the general populace exapect people to use the language properly? What possible reason could there be for forcing EVERYONE to learn 15 dialects when in fact those speaking the dialects are the ones using the speech incorrectly?

The whole conversation seems rediculous, if you can't communicate well you're not going to get very far, thats not racism, thats natural selection, if you're not willing to raise your level to the necessary point, you don't deserve the position/job/etc.

Understood. However, I also think the business world will be the LAST place you're going to find a lack of prejudice. Sure, there can be aspirations to do so, but when the bottom line is the company's money, YOUR job (as hiring manager), etc., you're going to find that one of the all-important factors is the minimization of risk. Hiring someone who speaks differently than the majority of your customers/employees is always going to be a risk.

I've never denied this is real world. I'm just hoping to change it (at least in my neck of the woods).

Don't worry about it, sometimes my bluntness gets me in trouble. I just hope noop got something out of this among the craters.

I should put in big bold letters an example. Maybe then you will get it.


Talk about fully loaded.

is this where you yell STRAW MAN?

I forgot no one is allowed to disagree with you John :rolleyes:



HFP - Like I told Dutch, I merely thought that comment was racsit since I took in that I thought you meant that all employers were racist, you clarified so I know what you mean now. Again, I don't doubt that you do that and I applaud you for it. Like I said, I just haven't seen it in my expeierences and I do think that it has to do with the part of the country I live in.

actually John, you should re-read it, this really isn't about anything more than a willingness to learn the language of the society you live in. Its about being responsible for yourself to the point that you can communicate in the common language around you.

The whole idea of it being race related and most of the other crap flowing through this thread is really not the point, its been brought up by some, IMO that have a chip on their shoulder about this topic and its easier to yell RACE and PREJUDICE and expect people to lower their standards for fear of litigation than it is to simply make the effort to speak and communicate clearly and understandably when outside your personal circle of friends and family.