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-   -   Bill Cosby ruffles some feathers. (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=25773)

primelord 05-21-2004 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeval
I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

Kevin


I understand where you are coming from. I do however think in this particular situation it can lead to a lessor candidate getting the job just because they have better understanding of proper grammar. I do agree there is very little excuse for an incorrectly spelled word on a resume. That is pure laziness. The grammar checker is a whole different ball game though. It is not always correct with it's suggestions as it doesn't always properly identify what you were trying to say. If you don't understand the grammar rule in the first place then just blindly following Word's grammar checker can make for a pretty unreadable sentence.

With that all being said I understand that employers generally have a ton of resumes to go through and they need to find a way to thin the field to even make it managable. If you have determined that someone who doesn't correctly place commas is likely to also not be a good employee then so be it. However I will say again that I know several people who are very good at their job who don't write well at all. Any company looking for C++ programmers would be making a mistake by passing on them because of a grammatical error in their resume. They might be the exception to the rule, but it still shows that it may not always be in your best interest to just dismiss someone from a mistake on their resume.

Noop 05-21-2004 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple
You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.


Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.

Chubby 05-21-2004 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii
We have a guy in our office from the Virgin Islands. When he is on the phone with his family, his accent is so thick that we literally cannot understand half of what he says, even though he is speaking plain english. Around everyone else he is easy to understand. He never talks about "changing who he is" like he has a chip on his shoulder.

We also have a girl who is indian. Her accent is quite thick. On the phone I cannot understand her and often have to ask her to repeat herself. When she is in our office and face to face and I can watch her speak, I can pick up most everything though. She is shielded from customers because most of our customers would not be able to understand her. This means more work for everyone, we all occasionally have to talk to a customer for her, or pick up her slack b/c of the language barrier. She is very technically competant though so she is employed.

Are we racist because we don't want the girl who cannot be understood by many customers talking to customers? Are we racist b/c we appreciate the guy with the *thick* island accent toning it down when he talks to everyone else?

Honestly, noop, I think you are picking a battle that doesn't need to be fought, and going into it with a major chip on your shoulder.

I hate dressing up past jeans and a t-shirt. Hell, I don't even like jeans, I'd prefer shorts. I only own khakis and polo shirts b/c my job has a dress code that requires them.

I cuss a lot outside of work, with my friends. I don't cuss very often in the office. Do these thigns mean I'm forced to "change who I am" to work? Sort of, but its just not worth fighting, even though I could go to work in shorts, cussing every other word and get my job done just as well. Just not a battle worth fighting. I refuse to wear a suit, so I won't take a job that requires it. I'm limiting myself, knowingly and intentionally, in this way,and i'm fine with it.

BTW, I really like the example given earlier of the valley girl teen, "like, um, yeah, seriously, whatever, I'm 21." It's not a race thing here, that girl doesn't get hired either if that's how she conducts herself at an interview.


/looks at noop's post above and nods with radii's post

HornedFrog Purple 05-21-2004 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
If a white kid walked in the door for an interview and started speaking like an uneducated, white priveliged kid he'd get tossed out just as fast as your example. It's not a color issue, it's a education and communication issue but you don't want to see that.


It's obvious you don't even read before you hit quote.

1. I was speaking to noop. Maybe that's why I quoted him.
2. You can replace "Just another black kid" to "Just another piece of white trash", "Just another mexican", et cetera. Your red herring can take a hiatus.

Obviously, this is a communication issue.

wig 05-21-2004 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


You're still in high school, aren't you? :)

Noop 05-21-2004 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wig
You're still in high school, aren't you? :)


Sadly yes. :(

cthomer5000 05-21-2004 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


I think this is an entirely different thread, as nothing you wrote about pertains to race whatsoever. That's more of a general attack on the structure of our society.

VPI97 05-21-2004 11:38 AM


HornedFrog Purple 05-21-2004 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


Well welcome to the real world. Everybody has to go through it. :D

Chubby 05-21-2004 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97



:rolleyes:

kserra 05-21-2004 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


noop,

all I can say to your many posts is I'm sorry...

sorry that you are so angry,

sorry that you don't realize everyone must "play the game" to get a job,

sorry that you see racism everywhere, even in well-meaning people,

sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror...

are some people racist? yes
are most? no
do all people hate conforming and "playing the game"? hell yes
do most suck it up and do it, while trying to maintain some sense of self? yes

that's all...

Kevin

Noop 05-21-2004 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000
I think this is an entirely different thread, as nothing you wrote about pertains to race whatsoever. That's more of a general attack on the structure of our society.

I was talking to HornedFrog Purple.

"Kserra - sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror..."

I am the maker of my own problems. If I am poor I sure as hell am not going to say it is the white mans fault. It would be my fault because I chose to believe what I believe. I am not angry believe me I am not I am in awe of how people accept this...

Franklinnoble 05-21-2004 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Sadly yes. :(


Why is that sad? You haven't been expelled or anything... and, honestly, it doesn't get any easier for you. I'd be pretty happy if I were still in high school... well, except for the fact that I'm almost 30... I'd probably be embarassed... but, you know, high school chicks like older guys, so...

Eh... I got nothing.

wig 05-21-2004 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
kserra - I am not angry just can't understand why people accept it.


When you are in the real world for a few years, you'll understand.

Chubby 05-21-2004 11:48 AM

cthomer - noop and HFP are having a private convo that we aren't allowed to comment on for some reason.

Ksyrup 05-21-2004 11:48 AM

I realize that there is a racial overtone to this particular issue (with regard to speech), but really, this is no different than a white kid with long hair who wants to get a job in corporate America. Hell, look at the hippie guy from ESPN's Dream Job competition. You heard it straight from "The Man" representing ESPN - that's not the image ESPN wants to portray.

That's the bottom line. Black, white, green, or blue, we all have to change who we are in some respect to make ourselves as attractive as we can to those with the power to hire. I dress like an absolute slob when I'm not working, but I never bring that into the office, because if I did, I wouldn't be sitting in this particular office right now. That's just life, folks.

Tekneek 05-21-2004 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.


If you want to speak slang/street, that is fine. Don't blame other people, or society, when you don't get the opportunities that you think you deserve. We all make choices in life, and we have to live with the consequences, and most of them are nobody else's fault. *THAT* was his point.

Tekneek 05-21-2004 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt
It is only because "proper" English is practiced by the largely white majority that other forms of English are held in lower regard.


Go to France and speak a poor form of French, that a lot of French people may have trouble understanding. Try to be successful with this. Do you think you will find success? I'd guess not. It's because you are not speaking the appropriate language for what you are trying to do. It's not unfair, it's a reality. You made the decision to not learn proper French before you got started. It is the same principle. If you can't speak clearly in the language used in that business, society, etc, you should not expect to have the same opportunity as someone who can. It gives you one extra hurdle that you have to clear.

Noop 05-21-2004 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek
If you want to speak slang/street, that is fine. Don't blame other people, or society, when you don't get the opportunities that you think you deserve. We all make choices in life, and we have to live with the consequences, and most of them are nobody else's fault. *THAT* was his point.


Please spare me. Your taking it entirely wrong. Period.

Arles 05-21-2004 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
I am not angry believe me I am not I am in awe of how people accept this...

Then complete devote yourself to a marketable passion and start your own company. Then you make the rules and can atleast behave how you wish a majority of the time (although you may still need to make occasional changes when dealing with clients).

Chubby 05-21-2004 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
Please spare me. Your taking it entirely wrong. Period.


And if you are equating talking slang in a business atmosphere to slavery then YOU are taking it entirely wrong. Period. Exclamation point.

Franklinnoble 05-21-2004 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arles
Then complete devote yourself to a marketable passion and start your own company. Then you make the rules and can atleast behave how you wish a majority of the time (although you may still need to make occasional changes when dealing with clients).


Bah. Get buffed out and become an underwear model... won't matter how you speak at that point.

wig 05-21-2004 11:59 AM

ok, this topic is dead now.

wig 05-21-2004 11:59 AM

We need 1 more owner for WigFL.

Noop 05-21-2004 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
And if you are equating talking slang in a business atmosphere to slavery then YOU are taking it entirely wrong. Period. Exclamation point.


I was making an example. You are looking for something I am not going to give you. Period. Go back to making fun of Dean Houston. Period.

wig 05-21-2004 12:00 PM

WigFL isn't racist, like job interviews are.

wig 05-21-2004 12:00 PM

WigFL isn't racist, like the English language is.

heybrad 05-21-2004 12:01 PM

Noop...

Just a note from one old FOFCer to a young FOFCer. You have you're whole life ahead of you. If you've decided at this young age that you're going to fail no matter what... guess what, you probably will. I'm only throwing this out there, because I had some crappy things earlier in life and it was pointed out to me that being your age is probably the best time to make good things happen. It doesnt get any easier as you get older.

wig 05-21-2004 12:01 PM

However, if you are a black man on a bicycle in the street as stevew walks home from work, don't be shocked if he runs away.

cthomer5000 05-21-2004 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
I was talking to HornedFrog Purple.


Oh, ok...

Just so you know, you posted this in the general discussion forum (not as a private message). You might want to double-check next time.

wig 05-21-2004 12:01 PM

He's not being racist, he's just scared to lose his $8 and pack of smokes.

Chubby 05-21-2004 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
I was making an example. You are looking for something I am not going to give you. Period. Go back to making fun of Dean Houston. Period.

Go back to your private conversation with HFP and hating the world. Period. Exclamation point.

Your example was incredibly poor, deal with it.

John Galt 05-21-2004 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog
Again, the solution seems pretty simple: if you want a leg up, learn "proper English."

If you want a leg up in the job hiring market, there are several ways to do it:
  • Conform your dress to the standard expectation.
  • Conform your spoken language to the standard expectation.
  • "Conform" your education to the standard expectation (ie, if you don't have a degree, maybe you should consider earning one...)
  • Conform your written grammar to the standard expectation
  • "Conform" your skills to the standard expectation (go get certified, for example)
My point is that "conforming" one's language to an expected norm just makes sense.


Those are pretty high standards for someone who is speaking English as a Second Language and/or someone who was raised in an environment were "proper English" wasn't widely used. I'm a believer in teaching "proper English," but I also believe in tolerating and trying to understand those that don't.

wig 05-21-2004 12:03 PM

And don't be scared of solly, even though he looks exactly like Powder.

Noop 05-21-2004 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heybrad
Noop...

Just a note from one old FOFCer to a young FOFCer. You have you're whole life ahead of you. If you've decided at this young age that you're going to fail no matter what... guess what, you probably will. I'm only throwing this out there, because I had some crappy things earlier in life and it was pointed out to me that being your age is probably the best time to make good things happen. It doesnt get any easier as you get older.


I know I am not going to fail. I am just amazed by people's actions and what not. Believe me when I say I learn alot from these type of threads. I just don't like folks giving me sideway remarks. But thank you for the advice.

HornedFrog Purple 05-21-2004 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
cthomer - noop and HFP are having a private convo that we aren't allowed to comment on for some reason.


You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty.

Noop, I wish I was asking these kind of questions when I was your age. At least you are being honest. When I went out into the "real world" I was more confused than you were. In fact, I was downright scared because my environment was always around my own people (am I allowed to say that Chubby?). But as the years went by, I realized you have to give a little to get a little. Everybody does whether you have long hair, piercing on every oriface, can't speak a lick of English or whatever. Is that fair? Probably not. But it is socially fair.

The only way you are going to break the mold is to smash it with a sledgehammer and never look back. But don't let anyone ever tell you who you are.

heybrad 05-21-2004 12:04 PM

Did I not get the memo? Are we supposed to spell out the end of our sentences now question mark

Chubby 05-21-2004 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heybrad
Did I not get the memo? Are we supposed to spell out the end of our sentences now question mark

hey brad :p

Do you have a copy of the memo? Well, I'll make sure you get a copy of the memo.

wig 05-21-2004 12:05 PM

spelling punctuation is racist.

John Galt 05-21-2004 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97


LOL. :D

Chubby 05-21-2004 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple
You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty.

Noop, I wish I was asking these kind of questions when I was your age. At least you are being honest. When I went out into the "real world" I was more confused than you were. In fact, I was downright scared because my environment was always around my own people (am I allowed to say that Chubby?). But as the years went by, I realized you have to give a little to get a little. Everybody does whether you have long hair, piercing on every oriface, can't speak a lick of English or whatever. Is that fair? Probably not. But it is socially fair.

The only way you are going to break the mold is to smash it with a sledgehammer and never look back. But don't let anyone ever tell you who you are.


Just as cthomer pointed, it is silly to post on a message board then turn around and say "I was talking to x!" that's all I was saying in that post you quoted.

Noop 05-21-2004 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
Go back to your private conversation with HFP and hating the world. Period. Exclamation point.

Your example was incredibly poor, deal with it.

You have a personal problem please state it. Because you are going after me for some reason much like everyone else here when I disagree with popular opinion. So state it. I am younger then you yet your acting like a child? Do you want to fight or something? Are you smoking that reefer? Please explain...because I am quite confused by your comments to me.

John Galt 05-21-2004 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup
I realize that there is a racial overtone to this particular issue (with regard to speech), but really, this is no different than a white kid with long hair who wants to get a job in corporate America. Hell, look at the hippie guy from ESPN's Dream Job competition. You heard it straight from "The Man" representing ESPN - that's not the image ESPN wants to portray.

That's the bottom line. Black, white, green, or blue, we all have to change who we are in some respect to make ourselves as attractive as we can to those with the power to hire. I dress like an absolute slob when I'm not working, but I never bring that into the office, because if I did, I wouldn't be sitting in this particular office right now. That's just life, folks.


Except that language/accent changes aren't as easy (especially for people learning a second language).

stevew 05-21-2004 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wig
However, if you are a black man on a bicycle in the street as stevew walks home from work, don't be shocked if he runs away.


Alright, that was a low blow dude.

Arles 05-21-2004 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt
Those are pretty high standards for someone who is speaking English as a Second Language and/or someone who was raised in an environment were "proper English" wasn't widely used. I'm a believer in teaching "proper English," but I also believe in tolerating and trying to understand those that don't.

My thought on this is to tolerate and try understand those that don't speak "proper English". But, to also assume that everyone else will not tolerate it.

Do that and you will be fine.

Chubby 05-21-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop
You have a personal problem please state it. Because you are going after me for some reason much like everyone else here when I disagree with popular opinion. So state it. I am young then you yet your acting like a child? Do you want to fight or something? Are you smoking that reefer? Please explain...because I am quite confused by your comments to me.


Noop, everyone doesn't have a personal problem with you despite what you think. "much like everyone else here" yet you feel the need to call me out? w/e doesn't bother me.

You want to continue on your "everyone is out to get me, I'm not changing anything I do cause nothing I do is wrong" routine then go ahead but people ARE going to tell you you're wrong. As has been stated before, not everyone is racist, not everyone is biased because of someone's age.

Chubby 05-21-2004 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arles
My thought on this is to tolerate and try understand those that don't speak "proper English". But, to also assume that everyone else will not tolerate it.

Do that and you will be fine.


Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more?

primelord 05-21-2004 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more?


Are you implying that you should be more inclined to listen to the person who articulates themselves well?

cuervo72 05-21-2004 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt
Except that language/accent changes aren't as easy (especially for people learning a second language).


But how many generations does it take for a language to stop being a secondary language and become a primary language? Yes, this may be difficult if you've grown up in a place where only another language or dialect has been used. I would think there would be countless examples of second generation Americans that have little or no accent; why is it that these differences persist?

HornedFrog Purple 05-21-2004 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby
Just as cthomer pointed, it is silly to post on a message board then turn around and say "I was talking to x!" that's all I was saying in that post you quoted.


Just so he knows, I am talking to Chubby!

I didn't think I would have to state "I was talking to x!" since I turned around and quoted him. If I would have said "Just another piece of white trash" how does that make any sense to noop?

I have been down that same road many years ago, I am just trying to hopefully give him directions to get him out of it. I don't give a damn what you think. Period.


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