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I understand where you are coming from. I do however think in this particular situation it can lead to a lessor candidate getting the job just because they have better understanding of proper grammar. I do agree there is very little excuse for an incorrectly spelled word on a resume. That is pure laziness. The grammar checker is a whole different ball game though. It is not always correct with it's suggestions as it doesn't always properly identify what you were trying to say. If you don't understand the grammar rule in the first place then just blindly following Word's grammar checker can make for a pretty unreadable sentence. With that all being said I understand that employers generally have a ton of resumes to go through and they need to find a way to thin the field to even make it managable. If you have determined that someone who doesn't correctly place commas is likely to also not be a good employee then so be it. However I will say again that I know several people who are very good at their job who don't write well at all. Any company looking for C++ programmers would be making a mistake by passing on them because of a grammatical error in their resume. They might be the exception to the rule, but it still shows that it may not always be in your best interest to just dismiss someone from a mistake on their resume. |
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Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me. |
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/looks at noop's post above and nods with radii's post |
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It's obvious you don't even read before you hit quote. 1. I was speaking to noop. Maybe that's why I quoted him. 2. You can replace "Just another black kid" to "Just another piece of white trash", "Just another mexican", et cetera. Your red herring can take a hiatus. Obviously, this is a communication issue. |
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You're still in high school, aren't you? :) |
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Sadly yes. :( |
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I think this is an entirely different thread, as nothing you wrote about pertains to race whatsoever. That's more of a general attack on the structure of our society. |
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Well welcome to the real world. Everybody has to go through it. :D |
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:rolleyes: |
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noop, all I can say to your many posts is I'm sorry... sorry that you are so angry, sorry that you don't realize everyone must "play the game" to get a job, sorry that you see racism everywhere, even in well-meaning people, sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror... are some people racist? yes are most? no do all people hate conforming and "playing the game"? hell yes do most suck it up and do it, while trying to maintain some sense of self? yes that's all... Kevin |
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"Kserra - sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror..." I am the maker of my own problems. If I am poor I sure as hell am not going to say it is the white mans fault. It would be my fault because I chose to believe what I believe. I am not angry believe me I am not I am in awe of how people accept this... |
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Why is that sad? You haven't been expelled or anything... and, honestly, it doesn't get any easier for you. I'd be pretty happy if I were still in high school... well, except for the fact that I'm almost 30... I'd probably be embarassed... but, you know, high school chicks like older guys, so... Eh... I got nothing. |
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When you are in the real world for a few years, you'll understand. |
cthomer - noop and HFP are having a private convo that we aren't allowed to comment on for some reason.
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I realize that there is a racial overtone to this particular issue (with regard to speech), but really, this is no different than a white kid with long hair who wants to get a job in corporate America. Hell, look at the hippie guy from ESPN's Dream Job competition. You heard it straight from "The Man" representing ESPN - that's not the image ESPN wants to portray.
That's the bottom line. Black, white, green, or blue, we all have to change who we are in some respect to make ourselves as attractive as we can to those with the power to hire. I dress like an absolute slob when I'm not working, but I never bring that into the office, because if I did, I wouldn't be sitting in this particular office right now. That's just life, folks. |
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If you want to speak slang/street, that is fine. Don't blame other people, or society, when you don't get the opportunities that you think you deserve. We all make choices in life, and we have to live with the consequences, and most of them are nobody else's fault. *THAT* was his point. |
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Go to France and speak a poor form of French, that a lot of French people may have trouble understanding. Try to be successful with this. Do you think you will find success? I'd guess not. It's because you are not speaking the appropriate language for what you are trying to do. It's not unfair, it's a reality. You made the decision to not learn proper French before you got started. It is the same principle. If you can't speak clearly in the language used in that business, society, etc, you should not expect to have the same opportunity as someone who can. It gives you one extra hurdle that you have to clear. |
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Please spare me. Your taking it entirely wrong. Period. |
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And if you are equating talking slang in a business atmosphere to slavery then YOU are taking it entirely wrong. Period. Exclamation point. |
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Bah. Get buffed out and become an underwear model... won't matter how you speak at that point. |
ok, this topic is dead now.
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We need 1 more owner for WigFL.
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I was making an example. You are looking for something I am not going to give you. Period. Go back to making fun of Dean Houston. Period. |
WigFL isn't racist, like job interviews are.
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WigFL isn't racist, like the English language is.
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Noop...
Just a note from one old FOFCer to a young FOFCer. You have you're whole life ahead of you. If you've decided at this young age that you're going to fail no matter what... guess what, you probably will. I'm only throwing this out there, because I had some crappy things earlier in life and it was pointed out to me that being your age is probably the best time to make good things happen. It doesnt get any easier as you get older. |
However, if you are a black man on a bicycle in the street as stevew walks home from work, don't be shocked if he runs away.
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Oh, ok... Just so you know, you posted this in the general discussion forum (not as a private message). You might want to double-check next time. |
He's not being racist, he's just scared to lose his $8 and pack of smokes.
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Your example was incredibly poor, deal with it. |
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Those are pretty high standards for someone who is speaking English as a Second Language and/or someone who was raised in an environment were "proper English" wasn't widely used. I'm a believer in teaching "proper English," but I also believe in tolerating and trying to understand those that don't. |
And don't be scared of solly, even though he looks exactly like Powder.
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I know I am not going to fail. I am just amazed by people's actions and what not. Believe me when I say I learn alot from these type of threads. I just don't like folks giving me sideway remarks. But thank you for the advice. |
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You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty. Noop, I wish I was asking these kind of questions when I was your age. At least you are being honest. When I went out into the "real world" I was more confused than you were. In fact, I was downright scared because my environment was always around my own people (am I allowed to say that Chubby?). But as the years went by, I realized you have to give a little to get a little. Everybody does whether you have long hair, piercing on every oriface, can't speak a lick of English or whatever. Is that fair? Probably not. But it is socially fair. The only way you are going to break the mold is to smash it with a sledgehammer and never look back. But don't let anyone ever tell you who you are. |
Did I not get the memo? Are we supposed to spell out the end of our sentences now question mark
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Do you have a copy of the memo? Well, I'll make sure you get a copy of the memo. |
spelling punctuation is racist.
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LOL. :D |
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Just as cthomer pointed, it is silly to post on a message board then turn around and say "I was talking to x!" that's all I was saying in that post you quoted. |
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Except that language/accent changes aren't as easy (especially for people learning a second language). |
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Alright, that was a low blow dude. |
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Do that and you will be fine. |
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Noop, everyone doesn't have a personal problem with you despite what you think. "much like everyone else here" yet you feel the need to call me out? w/e doesn't bother me. You want to continue on your "everyone is out to get me, I'm not changing anything I do cause nothing I do is wrong" routine then go ahead but people ARE going to tell you you're wrong. As has been stated before, not everyone is racist, not everyone is biased because of someone's age. |
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Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more? |
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Are you implying that you should be more inclined to listen to the person who articulates themselves well? |
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But how many generations does it take for a language to stop being a secondary language and become a primary language? Yes, this may be difficult if you've grown up in a place where only another language or dialect has been used. I would think there would be countless examples of second generation Americans that have little or no accent; why is it that these differences persist? |
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Just so he knows, I am talking to Chubby! I didn't think I would have to state "I was talking to x!" since I turned around and quoted him. If I would have said "Just another piece of white trash" how does that make any sense to noop? I have been down that same road many years ago, I am just trying to hopefully give him directions to get him out of it. I don't give a damn what you think. Period. |
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Yes. If these convos take place... "See, uh, like I have this new game that like I want to make. It would be so cool if you would look at my design document dude. Huh? Awesome!" "I have a desigin document for a game I have been working on that I would like you to look at, thank you." I know I would certainly give more time to the 2nd person vs the 1st person as I think any professional would in a similar situation. |
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And that has been my position throughout this thread. |
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That said, I don't know if I represent the majority. Nor would I behave like that was the case if I had a think accent or slang dialect. **EDIT** Also, the nature of business I am in allows me to be more flexible in this area than if that person were working as a bank teller. |
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Because by using a term to describe someone's race you are making it a racial issue. A more accurate thing to have said would have been "Just another uneducated kid" if race doesn't have anything to do with it (as you are saying). By saying what you did, you;re only playing into noop's "they're all out to change me" paranoia. Everyone that is out of college has been down that road, again, it has nothing to do with skin color. |
Messageboards are racist
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That is unfortunate. By not giving them equal time you may be missing out on the better idea. My point to Noop was that he would benefit from speaking proper english because it would give him more opportunities in life. That's the way things are. That doesn't mean that's the way things should be. |
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Doh< i wasn't clear. Slang as in my example to primelord not as an accent. To me, I have no problem with accents. As you pointed out, someone from another country may be difficult to understand but as long as they talk professionaly I don't have a problem with it. The problem I have is people using "like, dude, swearing, etc..." in a business climate. |
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I think it always depends. Look at an easy case like a Southern accent. Even though people speak the same language, it is hard to rid yourself of that accent (although some people can do it with ease). I know in NYC some people hear a Southern accent and think "redneck." That is a problem in my mind. Yet I think those regional differences may always exist and that is why tolerance is important. Immigrants often assimilate language-wise within 1 or 2 generations, but there are always more immigrants, so that too is probably always going to be an issue. |
slang is racist
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Oprah is racist, that's no joke.
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And just as with Arles's comment, I agree with this entirely. |
I don't think that people with college degrees should automatically be considered better qualified for jobs. However, I made the choice to not get a degree, so that's just the way it is. I should not blame society and other people for my choice. It's the same sort of situation.
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As I said, I'd give more time to the 2nd person. Never said I'd dismiss the the 1st person completely for the same reason you stated. But as I think cthomer pointed out, resumes. You make an error-filled resume, whether it be grammar or something else and you're not going to get looked at. You WILL have your resume dumped in the trash in an instant. |
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According to someone I know who was there, the media misinterpreted the story. Cosby wasn't the keynote speaker or anything like that. He decided to go on a rant, after receiving an award for philanthrophy. So, if there was shock it was because they didn't expect him to go on like that. She said that most of the people there received his remarks well, applauded and all that. So, it wasn't some big "outrage" like all the colored folks don't want to face the truth. These threads are always interesting, no matter where you read them. Because it always makes me think people sit around wanting to say things like this all the time and they don't feel like they can say it until someone else does, then they can like "See, See...even a black person feels that way." Cosby was preaching to the choir, saying nothing that no one in that audience didn't know. I don't see what the big deal is. |
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A definite fact. Actually - write it down!. I was in charge of hiring for a position recently... and we had so many qualified applicants that I had to find a place to start. F'ed up resumes were dumped immediately, and that still left me with way too many resumes to reasonably handle. |
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The southern accent is the most notable one, and one I thought of immediately (actually, a New York accent is another one - and one that I find personally more grating than a southern accent :) ). That is an accent that covers a large area though, as opposed to what could be considered smaller "pockets". It's dominant in the region, but I wouldn't think that would be the case in other examples, such as an 'ebonic' dialect or a Hispanic one. I suppose I may be naive as to the extent that there is a lack of integration in some areas. ----- I would have thought that wish mass communication forms such as radio and television, that some of these accents would have begun to largely go away... |
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And again I will say that I don't believe that is the way things should be. Certainly it depends on the job. If your resume has grammatical errors in it and part of your responsibilities will include writing then that is obviously a problem. If you are a computer programmer then it isn't always as big of a deal. So in my programmer it is easy to just trash the resume with mistakes as assuming the person has no attention to detail. Again I agree with this assessment if there are spelling mistakes. Not running a spell checker in inexcusable. However despite the availabilty of a grammar checker in word it isn't always very good and really doesn't help if you don;t understand the rule anyway. That doesn't mean that person isn't a fantastic prgrammer. It only means he isn't a very good writer. Assuming he is just lazy can lead to a great employee not getting a chance because you made an assumption without getting to know the candidate. It's the same thign with judgeing them by the way they speak. You are missing out by not giving them equal time just because they don't speak proper english. Everyone udnerstands that is the way the world is. However that doesn't mean you have to be that way. |
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Not in my neck of the woods. Walking down the street, you hear every accent, language, and variation on English. |
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There are more than just 1, and they're pretty different actually. Still - they're all horrible. :) Long Island (the WORST), Brooklyn, Yonkers, all differnt, all bad. South Jersey is also the typical "jersey" accent, and it's equally bad. Luckily, I've dodged them all - but deal with them on a regular basis in NYC. |
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And I understand that. I also understand why employers many times just cut out the resumes of candidates without degrees. Even though some of those may have actually been a better fit for the job. I still think it is unfortunate when a mistake like that costs a company a great employee. |
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Next time I try to relate to what noop is thinking from personal experience, I'll ask your permission. I apologize. If it's because it's something you don't want to hear, I don't apologize. Call me a racist, I really don't care. Racism has nothing to do with words, it has everything to do with power. I contend you have little idea what actual racism is and that is good. Keep it that way. |
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I understand what John Galt is saying - that it's unfortunate that one may be missing out on opportunities and/or learning something by not being more tolerant of a person's use of slang/hair length/body odor etc. However, in the business world especially, people just don't have the time (nor can they afford) to do this.
I see no problem with not hiring a person because they do not have the skills necessary to do the job correctly. Let's face it, communicaton is key in the business world. Whether you are directly interfacing with customers, or working in a team environment, the ability to effectively communicate your ideas is paramount. To call that prejudice is ridiculous. Can it occur? Certainly. But to make that jump right from the get-go is a bunch of "hooey". |
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I agree with you on an "ideals" level. On a practical level, don't you have to start discriminating somewhere though? I can't interview every applicant, and I think doing away with those who didn't take the time to present an error-free resume is a pretty fair way to start. |
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Wait, this sounds like my life!!! And just from my perspective. HFP is the least racist guy I know. He's one of the good guys, so I don't really enjoy seeing him attacked like this. |
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I have lived in the South my entire life. My family are all from the South, and pretty much all have strong accents. Yet for some reason I do not. I credit it totally to television. |
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You're right, I don't have a lot of expereince with racism and I do try to keep it that way. Have I seen it? Yeah, a little but not a lot and I've tried to correct it whenever I see it (as I have in this thread). I guess this is a north/south thing I don't know. I've lived in upstate NY my whole life and like I've said, I've seen racism but not to the extent that I think it happens in south (which I'm defining as below the mason-dixon line). I maintain that it's not as prevelent as noop makes it seem but as you are relating to noops personal experience, I base my beliefs off of my personal experiences. |
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Truer words have never been spoken by mortal man. |
Of course they all have spelling skill, but I do not. I also credit that to television.
edit: far from a dola. |
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Maybe I'll be a Senator too :) But I will have my eyes on the white house the whole time :) |
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Think of it like being a baseball scout. If someone comes in for a trial as a pitcher and they are 5-8 and throw 80 MPH tops, it's doubtful the scout will sign him even if he's had some level of success and may even have the potential to be the next great starter. The pitcher's initial presentation of himself puts him as a severe longshot to make it in the bigs. |
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As in many political threads, people seem to fear being called "prejudiced" or even worse, "racist" (even though no one ever actually is called "racist"). Making assumptions based on language variaitons is the very definition of prejudice (from dictionary.com) 1 a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. b. A preconceived preference or idea. My point is that using language differences as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice. I know most people hate the idea that they could in fact be prejudiced, but IMO everyone of us is. That is how people work. The task for us, IMO, is to recognize our prejudices and try to minimize their effect on other people. And just to preempt. I'm NOT saying communication isn't essential in the workplace. I'm saying that learning to tolerate different communication styles/accents/variations is something to which we should all aspire. |
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Using body odor as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice too, are you going to make that your next crusade? |
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And again I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I am talking about not understanding all of the grammatical rules. You see a mistake and assume that the person was lazy and didn't proof read his resume. However it is possible he didn't understand that he needed a cooma here or there or that he needs an ' in it's. Again I agree that is a huge problem if the person is going to be expected to write as part of his job. It's not nealry as big of a deal if he is being hired as a coder. Not it is certainly possible that the person is just lazy and didn't proof read, but you can't know for certain until you actually talk to that person. |
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While true, I think it's practically impossible. It would mean interviewing every applicant for every job. |
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sigh... |
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I'm sorry, if a person can't bother to do something that takes 5 seconds (hit spellcheck) or have someone look over their resume and it contains errors, then it's NOT getting looked at. |
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Seriously, do you ever read what other people say before you post? As I've said, language is DIFFERENT than body odor (or most other examples) because it is much harder to adapt. Wearing deodorant is not the same thing as learning a second language with a conventional accent and with perfect spoken grammar. |
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No it's not. I don't really believe that anyone here is talking about changing people's accents. They are talking about the proper useage of language. No "like, uh, ya know, dude, awesome, rad, yo" is what they are talking about. Also, you have to speak english. As was pointed out by someone else, go over to say France and try getting a job by speaking only english and see how far you get. |
My feelings/thoughts on this thread
1 - Bill Cosby Rocks, Black people need more leaders like him and less leaders like Jesse Jackson. 2 - Hopfully everyone in america will take note of what Bill said, not just black folks. 3 - Noop - You watch to much MTV and your confused. But don't worry, you'll grow out of it. But if you don't grow out of it, i'll see ya at the Mickey-D's drive thru window :) "Ya wan some fries wit dat dogg???? |
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Seriously. Stop. Stop now. Try reading the thread again. All of this has been addressed and you ignore it. You do this in a lot of political threads. Stop. Please. |
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Believe me man, I spend more time talking to black people trying to motivate them out of the rut they are in then you would believe. A lot of it is fear and quite frankly we have put ourselves in that position through fear. It exists. Is it changing? Yes. I seriously yell at my own race more than about anyone I know. |
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Wow, I hate to say this, but this sounds like a ton of whining self indulgent sympathy farming to me. If you went through the work and effort to get the diploma, and more to get the degree, is it that much more effort on your part to learn to communbicate in a way that will all but guarentee you get a job? If you're unwillingness or inability to speak properly or at the very least coherently is what is keeping you from getting hired the fault does not lie with anyone but yourself for not making the effort to learn the good communications skills. I admit I have a problem with people who can't or won't for whatever reason, learn to speak the language. Its not that I dislike their race creed color or anything else, its that If I can't UNDERSTAND you, how can you expect me to respect you? I don't expect someone in russia to give me a second look if I tried to go there and find work without first learning the proper language. I can speak any way I want when around those who understand me, but in mixed company its ignorant and rude to speak gibberish and then have the gall to wonder why everyone looks at me funny or won't offer me a job. Businesses have every right to offer a lesser qualified person a job if they have better speaking skills, communication is the heartbeat of almost every company. Why shouldn't the general populace exapect people to use the language properly? What possible reason could there be for forcing EVERYONE to learn 15 dialects when in fact those speaking the dialects are the ones using the speech incorrectly? The whole conversation seems rediculous, if you can't communicate well you're not going to get very far, thats not racism, thats natural selection, if you're not willing to raise your level to the necessary point, you don't deserve the position/job/etc. |
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Understood. However, I also think the business world will be the LAST place you're going to find a lack of prejudice. Sure, there can be aspirations to do so, but when the bottom line is the company's money, YOUR job (as hiring manager), etc., you're going to find that one of the all-important factors is the minimization of risk. Hiring someone who speaks differently than the majority of your customers/employees is always going to be a risk. |
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I've never denied this is real world. I'm just hoping to change it (at least in my neck of the woods). |
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Don't worry about it, sometimes my bluntness gets me in trouble. I just hope noop got something out of this among the craters. |
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Talk about fully loaded. |
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I forgot no one is allowed to disagree with you John :rolleyes: HFP - Like I told Dutch, I merely thought that comment was racsit since I took in that I thought you meant that all employers were racist, you clarified so I know what you mean now. Again, I don't doubt that you do that and I applaud you for it. Like I said, I just haven't seen it in my expeierences and I do think that it has to do with the part of the country I live in. |
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actually John, you should re-read it, this really isn't about anything more than a willingness to learn the language of the society you live in. Its about being responsible for yourself to the point that you can communicate in the common language around you. The whole idea of it being race related and most of the other crap flowing through this thread is really not the point, its been brought up by some, IMO that have a chip on their shoulder about this topic and its easier to yell RACE and PREJUDICE and expect people to lower their standards for fear of litigation than it is to simply make the effort to speak and communicate clearly and understandably when outside your personal circle of friends and family. |
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