Home
Feature Article
What Does Madden's AI Need to Do Better?

Madden has always been a game that deals each year in incremental improvements rather than growing by leaps in bounds. And while there may be much to like about the fine-tuned AI in Madden 17, that doesn’t mean there aren’t areas that could still use some work for next year.

Though the running game may have earned a large portion of the developers’ attention on the offensive side of the ball -- resulting in linemen being more trustworthy than they’ve ever been -- there are logic issues in blocking that remain unresolved. These become especially apparent on pitch plays, where a pulling lineman will frequently get confused about who he should be attacking on the outside to best spring a back for big yardage.



It’s hard enough to run the ball effectively when a lineman isn’t blocking who you necessarily feel he should be, and in the above example a guard is forced to make an important decision about which of two free defenders he should take out. However, he makes the much more head-scratching call to just not block either of them -- and the running back predictably gets destroyed.
 



When playing against the CPU on All-Madden difficulty, you would expect to compete against the shrewdest opponent, but that isn’t always the case. CPU quarterbacks, for one thing, are prone to making some baffling decisions with the ball amidst picking your defense apart. The most regular issue is a QB throwing the ball away when faced with even a hint of pressure. The above video clip, for instance, shows Drew Brees being forced to get rid of the ball when he feels the heat coming, but he does so by throwing the ball right over the head of a wide-open receiver. Why not just check it down to him rather than to the sidelines and pick up a short gain? That’s what the real Drew Brees would do.

On defense, the CPU may take advantage of your errant throws at nearly every turn, but it often struggles when choosing the best angles to make a tackle. In instances where a savvy human opponent would know to just push a button to reach out and complete the tackle, the CPU often makes the inexplicable choice to instead simply wait until the ball carrier gets really close to try and bring him down. This allows the runner to often go right by them and leaves the CPU defenders looking like they lack both the awareness and physicality to belong in the NFL.
 



But the CPU’s biggest problem in Madden remains the same one it's always been: grasping the complexities of time management when the game is on the line. As if the CPU were forever saddled with the terrifying prospect of an even less capable Andy Reid as coach, it never seems to understand when is the best time to call a timeout, run a no-huddle offense or spike the ball. As in previous incarnations of Madden, games can and will often end with the CPU frantically lining up for one last pass with time expiring when it's only trailing by a field goal, are well within field-goal range and even have a timeout in its back pocket that it's chosen not to use for some reason.

As Herm Edwards once famously said, “you play to win the game.” And while I’ll happily take the win any time I can get it, it’s always a little more satisfying when you beat someone who you feel was giving you their best shot, not someone who was so limited by programming that you actually felt guilty about the victory afterwards.

 


Member Comments
# 21 cable guy @ 09/24/16 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tom_Brady
every teams plays like the last all ai teams use the same playbook. the vikings play just like the patriots who play just like the colts. "coach suggestions are the same 8 plays as well
Yes. Teams play like their real life team counterparts. Offense and defense. And within that, Tendencies!!! THEN, let the elite players stand out. The 90 rated qb, throw to his 90 rated #1 wr more often. Which teams play exclusive zone, man or both. Do they have a pro- bowl elite level cb, who blankets the #1 wr. Who is the top rated LB, and does he blitz the most. Or just most successful. Then he will get to you faster. We then have to game plan around those things. Does anybody have to do these things now?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
# 22 reyes the roof @ 09/24/16 12:17 PM
I'd like for the playcalling/game management to be less formulaic and more in the moment. If we're in a shootout and it's 4th and 1 at the 50, have the cpu go for it. I feel like there is a set of rules for when the cpu should go for it on 4th down and if it doesn't fall within those set scenarios, it will never happen
 
# 23 ajra21 @ 09/24/16 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49UNCFan
1. Recognize mismatches and opponents weaknesses.
2.Learn who they're go to players are on offense.
3. Late game situations
4. Learn when to and when not to run out of bounce and field awareness in general
5.Pursuit angles
6.QB play is a major one. Qbs dont evade the defense or try to buy time.
7.Sometimes they kick field goals at the 45-50
8. Recognize the stars on defence (defensive players should shadow a star player when they are in a zone or simple strategy.
understanding who is playing is key for the next level. if the stud WR goes down, the CPU should not throw the ball as much to the backup who fills in.

yesterday, rodgers was knocked out of the game and RGIII came into the game. he threw as much as rodgers was.
 
# 24 kehlis @ 09/24/16 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajra21
understanding who is playing is key for the next level. if the stud WR goes down, the CPU should not throw the ball as much to the backup who fills in.
You have the right premise but the wrong reason.

Any QB will throw to an open receiver regardless of the number. The backup WR just shouldn't be able to get open the way elite WR's do.
 
# 25 Choward8792 @ 09/24/16 01:19 PM
Game is amazing. Madden player since original. Need CPU defense to stop calling the same plays vs one formation over n over again. If I'm in ace pair flex formation then I know I'm getting FS fire EVERYTIME. Easy to exploit after you've seen it just once because you know it's coming every play on 1st n 2nd down. Hope it can be fixed because I love the game and it's very close to perfection.
 
# 26 ajra21 @ 09/24/16 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehlis
You have the right premise but the wrong reason.

Any QB will throw to an open receiver regardless of the number. The backup WR just shouldn't be able to get open the way elite WR's do.
i've watched enough NFL to see QB not look towards the open backup instead preferring to fire it into a (double) covered "better" player.

dalton did this for years with green though he improved last year before his injury. kaepernick did it time & time again with boldin. same goes for mtuliple others.
 
# 27 ajra21 @ 09/24/16 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choward8792
Game is amazing. Madden player since original. Need CPU defense to stop calling the same plays vs one formation over n over again. If I'm in ace pair flex formation then I know I'm getting FS fire EVERYTIME. Easy to exploit after you've seen it just once because you know it's coming every play on 1st n 2nd down. Hope it can be fixed because I love the game and it's very close to perfection.
apparently giving the CPU team a generic playbook improves this.
 
# 28 Choward8792 @ 09/24/16 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajra21
apparently giving the CPU team a generic playbook improves this.

I guess I'll try that but won't that mean that every team I play will run the same few plays in every situation tho. It's not game breaking because it's only a few defenses I've seen so far that run the same plays repeatedly in certain Defensive formations. Just so close to the greatest madden I wish this wouldn't happen. Checked star rating in gameplan and that doesn't seem to be the problem. Trying to find solution
 
# 29 ajra21 @ 09/24/16 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choward8792
I guess I'll try that but won't that mean that every team I play will run the same few plays in every situation tho. It's not game breaking because it's only a few defenses I've seen so far that run the same plays repeatedly in certain Defensive formations. Just so close to the greatest madden I wish this wouldn't happen. Checked star rating in gameplan and that doesn't seem to be the problem. Trying to find solution
apparently, it makes it more varied and less similar.
 
# 30 cable guy @ 09/24/16 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajra21
apparently, it makes it more varied and less similar.
That or a better star system for plays in certain situations? A Fascinating find either way. Almost not the AI. But instead their own
team specific plays, hindering them. Custom playbooks must be incredible to use, if generics are better than the pbs each team is given.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
# 31 jmik58 @ 09/24/16 05:45 PM
AI blockers (all blockers) should have more awareness when it comes to missing or failing on a block. As it stands, blockers will just run straight down field after a missed/failed block. When you miss/fail on a block, fight back and try to engage the guy again ... or look to the immediate left or right for another guy to block. Don't simply accept (or forget?) what just happened and then run down the field. There's this strange phenomenon where the end of a play will have a varying number of blockers who are just running downfield aimlessly instead of finding a block near the immediate area.
 
# 32 ajra21 @ 09/24/16 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cable guy
That or a better star system for plays in certain situations? A Fascinating find either way. Almost not the AI. But instead their own
team specific plays, hindering them. Custom playbooks must be incredible to use, if generics are better than the pbs each team is given.
interesting point to consider.
 
# 33 Gator86 @ 09/25/16 08:59 PM
Way too easy to convert on fake punts
 
# 34 Baebae32 @ 09/26/16 01:02 AM
Have the CPU step up in the pocket more. Could even add a pocket awareness rating. Also QBs should keep their feet alive if they have all day to throw. They currently just stand there flatfooted. Keeping their feet alive could help to better simulate them going thru their progressions.

Also how about a couple of slider based (1-100 scale) tendencies for QBs to help alleviate the checkdown issue and differentiate QB play.

1. The first slider could be called "look for" and would have all the available receivers and tight ends on the roster included in a list somewhere in the edit player screen for a QB. Give every available target for the QB a number between 1 and 100. The assigned value will determine how often the QB looks for that receiver on the field. Obviously a 1 would mean hardly ever and 100 would designate a favorite target. This tendency could help tell the AI who it is looking to throw the ball to pre-snap.
Note: Torn between if the numbers should equal 100 or if they could go over in order to simulate a guy who is willing to spread it around like Aaron rodgers. I guess which ever would be easier to code would be best

Example:
Aaron Rodgers: 'Look For" (These numbers are derived from taking the number of targets divided by pass attempts from GB's first 2 games)
Jordy Nelson: 29
Randall Cobb: 21
Adams: 20
Richard Rodgers:7
Jared Cook: 11


In comparison a guy like Trevor Siemian would look like this...
Trevor Siemian: "Look For"
D. Thomas: 22
E. Sanders: 27
V. Green: 13

In these examples you can see that Rodgers would looking to spread the ball around a tad bit more (3 guys above 20) than Siemian who would be looking to get the ball to his 1st or 2nd read. Again this "look for" tendency slider help guide the AI on who to target in the pass game pre snap...now whether or not the guy actually throws the ball to the receiver could be influenced by another tendency called "force throw"
The "force throw" tendency would again be on a 1-100 scale. With this scale however the values do not have to add up to 100 and instead would showcase how aggressive a guy is to throw the ball to his targets in tight windows. Simply put, the higher the number the less amount of separation the receiver needs to generate in order for the AI Qb to pull the trigger. 1 would mean the guy would basically have to be on one side of the field by himself in order to receive a throw and 100 would mean that the AI Qb would force the ball into double and triple coverage. 50 could be the default.

Going back to our Siemian-Rodgers example. In terms of Rodgers You would give a high numbers to Jordy and Cobb (85-90ish) with a slightly smaller drop off for Adams and the rest of his receivers would get the default 50 or higher because Rodgers is a guy who isnt afraid to force it in there. With Siemian you would give Thomas and Sanders slightly higher than the default (55-65ish) and everyone else would get substantially lower than default (25-30) in order to emulate how careful the Broncos want him to be with the ball.
For kicks and giggles Matt stafford's tendencies with calvin johnson out wide would have been
"Look For": 95 , "Force Throw": 5,000

More tendencies could be incorporated for other aspects of QB play that could be on 1-100 scale. The AI could be coded with branching points for different scenarios and the tendencies would dictate how the QB would react. For example your scenarios could be 1) vs pressure, 2) normal pocket, 3) extended time. And now you put different actions for the QB to take on a 1-100 scale

1. Vs Pressure- if the normal amount of time in the pocket is around 3 seconds then the AI could be coded to go into its "vs pressure" tendencies when there is pressure before the 3 second threshold.( these can be branched off into vs pressure middle and vs pressure outside
Example: 'vs pressure outside'
QB: Big Ben (made up values based on what i saw against redskins, no statistical basis)
Step up in pocket: 50
Checkdown: 10
Extend play (rollout): 30
Scramble: 5
Throw Away: 5


And it would be pretty much the same breakdown for the other scenarios of "normal pocket" and "extended time"

I think that if something along the lines of what i have suggested would do wonders for differentiating QB play and would be in the end of robo QB (granted if there are measures taken to better represent inaccurate throws). You would finally be able to feel the difference from playing a Big Ben (extend the play guy) in comparison to a Kirk Cousins (checkdown artist). It would give guys flavor beyond their ratings and even give the generated QBs in draft classes their own signature styles in CFM. Might take a cycle or two but i think its worth it.
 
# 35 Datninja619 @ 09/26/16 10:20 AM
This is with USER and CPU AI: I'd like receivers to SIT in zones or at least slow down. There's been so many times where a WR is open in the red zone, but runs from one defender to the next. Leading to a pick

I understand there's spot routes, but if we can't audible to that type of route, then AI needs to understand how to sit in open zones.
 
# 36 KingV2k3 @ 09/26/16 10:29 AM
I'd say start by improving anything / everything related to QB play and IF they can pull THAT off, THEN move on to other things...

#firstthingsfirst

 
# 37 drugsbunny @ 11/10/16 11:43 AM
1. running backs should be able to push blockers forward and/or guide themselves off of blockers (think APF 2k8)
2. Different running styles just as QB's have different throwing styles. They do exist in the game, you just have to know how to juggle. If you take WR's Reggie Diggs or Titus Davis and make them running backs, you will notice they carry the ball lower and it makes for some dope animations. If giving the chance to make running backs with different styles, that would open up the game more.
3. I would like to see a tad bit more control over receivers when the ball is thrown. I would like to be able to create more of a fight for the ball while in the air. I think there needs to be more a disparity between a 5'10 cornerback and a 6'6 receiver.
4. I would like to be able to have a custom camera option. I like the typical madden view but I think there is a happy medium that could be achieved by giving me a custom option.
5. Game speed. In between Slow and Normal is the perfect speed for the game. I wish there was a slider for this instead of a hard option.
5. Although ball physics has seen an upgrade, that upgrade still pales in comparison to the older maddens. Older maddens didn't have balls that clipped through the back wall or slowed down following an incomplete pass.

I feel that madden is a great game of football. I feel like this madden should have been the madden we saw 2-3 years ago. The overall gameplay still has a cheapened feeling from the likes of APF 2k8 but I certainly enjoy the game nonetheless.
 
# 38 Datninja619 @ 11/10/16 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebennayx
It's not an issue with blocking logic, it's the entire foundation of blocking and the OL/DL interactions being fundamentally incorrect.

In it's current format, Madden will never achieve more than a win/loss patty-cake battle limiting the capabilities of the user to fit within the restrictions of the system. If the line has realistic responsibilities, keys, etc., and can play both as an individual and as a unit, then you can make the physical, technique, and intangible ratings all matter.

To date, Madden has never had any of this, which holds the entire game back. Build the trenches first, do it right - the rest will follow. A house without a foundation will not stand, no matter how fresh the paint job...make no mistake, the trenches are the foundation of everything that is football.
Well put. It's extremely frustrating seeing lineman get beat and continue blocking air, instead of trying to protect their QB.
 
# 39 RogueHominid @ 11/10/16 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingV2k3
I'd say start by improving anything / everything related to QB play and IF they can pull THAT off, THEN move on to other things...

#firstthingsfirst

This is priority #1 for me. I'd like to see AI that can replicate the play styles of the various types of QBs we see in the league.

I think the AI for pocket movement and scrambling needs to be improved significantly, as does the CPU's sense of when it's best to take a sack or throw the ball away.

I also think the AI needs to be able to render QBs who get rattled easily, those who will hang in the pocket to push the ball downfield, and those who will check down as often as possible to avoid making mistakes. Some of that is trait and ratings related, but I think it's also AI related.

I think the coverage adjustments for zones were good this year, but next year I'd like them to improve the AI for man defenders to reflect different techniques for different play calls.

So yes, QB first. Do that right and then worry about other stuff.
 
# 40 khaliib @ 11/10/16 09:36 PM
Even though this could be separated into "Off-Field" and "On-Field", I'll center this around On-Field.

Madden has never really been innovative so beg and borrow aspects from what other games are/may have utilize.

1) "Get the Ball To" mechanism from basketball that allows AI play calling with the focus directed at a certain player, position or preference
- outside/inside run
- outside hash/middle field passing attack
- Witten is set as Dak's #1 read, with Dez as his #2 as his order choice
- P. Harvin Rule = get the ball to such a player in any way possible

2) "Line Change" mechanism of Hockey that's based on what coach is trying to achieve
- subs dictated by game circumstance (short yardage, 3rd & long, pass rush etc...)

3) "Hot/Cold Pitch Zone" mechanism of Baseball that highlights an individual players strength/weaknesses at that position and AI uses as a variable of attack
- CB is strong on simple out/in routes, but weak and gets beat easily on double moves
- Safety is strong as a hard hitter, but weak at tackling and easily gets juked
- WR strength is speed/quickness, but weak in running sharp/correct routes

And so on, and so on!!!

I'm quiet sure others could note mechanisms in other games that would be useful to improving the AI system as a whole in Madden.

Point being is that "All New" in Madden just means that it wasn't implement/use in last couple releases and since there's nothing new under the sun that's really changed the sport (per say), so there's no need not to use mechanisms already being used elsewhere.

What ever they choose to do, no matter how much improved it may be, if EA continues to hide/lock out the gamer from greater liberty towards "Customizing" their AI experience, it won't matter.

CUSTOMIZATION, CUSTOMIZATION, CUSTOMIZATION is key!!!
 


Post A Comment
Only OS members can post comments
Please login or register to post a comment.