this is one of the reasons i like nfl 2k5 over madden 10......more control over the player. madden's animations have progressively gotten more canned over the years....

TOTALLY agree. Part of the reason I'm glad they toned down the fielding animation window in MLB The Show 10 and gave you back the feel that YOU are actually doing something and not just the animation system.

Agreed 100%...me and a friend were just disscussing this last night...I wanna be able to have total control of my player...take for example in Madden if i move the user controlled player pre-snap but when the ball is snapped i don't move him...he shouldn't move...that's total control...that's sorely needed...at times I feel like the cpu will move me outta it's way just to pick up a crutial 1st down and I hate being cheated this way...total control...a must have for THIS-GEN

Ahem brotha. Its the reason I replaced bball and football games with NHL

While I definitely agree I can see the hindrances that are keeping some games from giving us more freedom. Madden development teams, IMO, has for the better part of a decade been lazy but since I can't code I can't fix the problem myself. I do feel that there was slight improvement in Madden '10, but if I see my receiver catch on more ball out of bounds without at least trying to get both feet in I'm going to scream. That said since I have a few friends that work for game companies I can sympathize with them for the beating they take for their lack of improvement. Making games with more freedom means more work(read: more money). In the end, while to us games are a passion, to many in the business it's just a business.

Hey Chris, I completely agree with you. The problem with sports games these days and a lot of games in general is that they are still animation-based and not physics-based. This is 2010 and we are working with extremely powerful CPUs that can process an enormous amount of information.

Sports games will truly become revolutionary when they ditch the animation-first mentality and go physics first. The computer can generate their own, and frankly, infinite animations with a good physics engine.

But Chris, my question to you, or to anyone on here. Why do companies continue to use animation-first ideas on the current-gen systems? Animation-based gaming worked on PS2 and Xbox. Why can't they take a physics engine like euphoria or the Unreal engine and then use the 360 and PS3 cpu to compute and generate an infinite number of animations? Then all they would have to do is design the player models and make certain animations specific to players.

It seems like these companies continue to come up with excuses as to why NOT to use a physics-based engine for sports games. Eventually all this stuff about how "physics engines haven't been proven to work" stuff has got to stop. Eventually someone is gonna have to take a flyer and see if it works.

Am I way off-base with this, Chris?

Great thoughts guys. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to give more control to players.

Todd: I think companies use animation first because they still haven't quite figured out how to mix animations and physics in a way that the player never loses control over players. Some games like FIFA and NHL are finding ways to use the animation system in a way that doesn't feel canned *most* of the time. But there are still moments.

I don't think developers necessarily have to switch to a full physics based system, but I also think for sports like basketball, you can't keep the system in place. It just doesn't feel right.

Truistwon: I think you are right about the cost/benefits here. I don't fault companies for protecting their bottom line, but I think we're getting close to hitting a cap on quality with canned animations. They were fine in 2004, but in 2010 gamers are expecting a much more dynamic and open experience where they are more in control, I think that's one reason why sports games are indeed, losing their mojo.

I think we are throwing out the baby with the bath water here. Solid user control and smarter animations can be achieved with the current locomotion engines in place now.

The best (and perhaps the only feasible time to make a switch to a Unreal/Euphoria physics-type engine would be at the very beginning of a console generation. Otherwise they would be wasting what are supposed to be the best years for games during a console cycle—the mid to late years—on figuring out and tuning the new physics engine.

Until then, why can't more control within the engines we have already be achieved? The first step is removing all of this automatic movement that has become the trend in sports games. In Madden and NBA 2K10, if I don't move my control sticks, my player still moves around. Why? That makes it seem like I have no control of what is going on, and that I am just a facilitator in the game instead of a participant.

As far as things like sideline animations in Madden, this can be fixed without a physics engine as well. The catches near the sideline where the runner just continues to run out of bounds like he has no idea where he is has got to stop.

Funny how everyone mentions Madden 1st. I love this years, but its has prolly the worst execution of animations of all the major sports games out. A few games i can think of have 'cleaned it up' but most (sports) games are have predetermined animations. Prayin it wont be long 'til sports games catch up with us again.

I hate it that we are still triggering animations by using the left stick in 2K basketball games. That is, not only do we have to rely on canned animations in order to execute basketball moves, but we also have to trigger them by making Street Fighter-like motions with the left stick, which is also used for basic movement. I absolutely -hate- turning my back on my defender and going backwards when I'm trying to pull off a behind the back or spin move. Has anybody ever seen the likes of Kobe or D-Wade doing stupid stuff like that in an NBA game? I didn't think so.

2K has to swallow their pride and map dribbling moves to the right stick already, like EA has been doing. We'll never have true freedom for as long as the left stick serves two vital functions at the same time.