23's Blog
NBA Basketball Games: It just makes no sense (Long read, be prepared)
Posted on September 23, 2010 at 05:16 AM.
Sorry if you feel if im being extra or rocking the boat, I apologize in advance, because im not trying to, nor trying to offend,but I just feel like im in the twilight zone with what im seeing, and hearing... the demo, the excuses, the justification for supervillian abilities yet being generic all at the same time... but still, its just a blog so whatever.... back to 2k11
After seeing everything done from presentation, to association, to animations, to the little things, this game seems to have given the fans far more than what most of us expected. I sat there and watched so many complaints fall down and die one after one as more information came out, because not only did 2k listen to the fans but apparently were just as bothered with the issues we had and fixed them, a sheer leap from the previous game. Actions speak louder than words!
Knowing all of this, I look and see how this all happened in a one year cycle. My head is spinning and I still dont understand how they all got it done. Say what you may about the demo being cheap, and it is... but when they mentioned walking around the office working with a huge swagger wasnt a joke.
That said, they've shown me that it is possible to make a great game in a years time which brings me to what the problem is... what the heck happened at EA?
Say what you may, but in my eye and in the eyes of MANY, all it is, is excuses for what is possibly the worst EA basketball game since NBA Live 2007. In the year 2010, there is absolutely no excuse to continue to shaft the fans with a basketball game not worth an hour of playing time. The atmosphere on the court is so boring and dull you find yourself off in space by the time the clock hits 0.00
Once we moved past the corny buzz words like dice roll, and got through the smear campaign of animations are evil that suckered in some of the least suspecting guys, we find the there was hardly any advertisement for this game pumping out in the media which was strangely the opposite of everything years past sans Live 07.
I realize this is lengthy but its needful. Continuing... Therefore I didnt hesitate to jump on the chance to see the game at Venice Beach when there was a Boost Mobile tournament going on one Saturday. I met up with jtdribbles and jano, although I only played about a half.. I wanted to record footage for my brother who was madly excited about the game and hearing about total control... anyway as I recorded with a small digital camera under a small tent while others were playing, the content came out shaky but what I recorded was true raw footage non edited and exactly what the game was.
As I watched I mentioned to jt that the guys on OS is going to bash the game because of the quirky movement, and some other stuff I saw. On top of that I was able to capture a few nonsense plays like Carlos Boozer flying from the ft line, Hedo Turkoglu lanching from the same spot MJ did his famous reverse layup vs the Nets, and other quirky stuff. What I didnt record was worse, like some cheeser shooting and hitting about 8 three pointers in a row vs jt, and then even more when I took over, Wade and LeBron doing about 5 or 6 back to back sideways tomahawks over a crowd IN A ROW, and Kobe throwing an off the backboard lob to himself with 2 defenders in front of him unimpeded to name a few. Wow this is long but all true.
Anyone once the footage went up online as I got permission from the attendant at the booth since its only "advertisement"... it got alot of comments like, Oh its only on pro, oh they were cheesing, running amok (although thee was no sprint button) ah they dont know how to play, ah the camera made it look bad, oh yeah and the famous its an early version, which I think we heard up until 2 weeks ago.
Nonetheless it seems EA had gone into damage control at this point because we now are all of a sudden recording video! Now we'll show you how the game is played!... Okay I see, now we get content, now we get visuals and advertisements.. okay
So we see clips of horrid and controlled gameplay that just matched up with the videos I posted besides seeming more in control, just as I stated the wonkiness and funny looking movement was bashed, just worse than I thought. Before then all we got was 10 second clips that were downright awful and too many people on the forums werent being honest.
Yes, thats right... calling it looking great when Paul Pierce is moon walking on defense, Ron Artest is jumping from almost the FT Line on a dunk like Shawn Kemp literally and just boats Sheed out of the way like he was a man on the moon.. it was all too unrealistic and fake, just like Bynum dribbling behind the back and the ball launching away from him like his shoulder was a cannon, just like D. West jumping over someone for a putback, yet he barely bent his knees, jumped too high, and did something he is incapable of in real life, and that only after Okafor was pummeled without a foul being raped in the air by boney Tay Prince.. I mean come on.. it looked great, really?!
Once I saw that was acceptable to some, the real uneasiness set in. All we got afterwards was, wait til the demo, because the clips and minor vids were more fodder to chew on than convincing the long time fans that the game was an improvement. Afterall, the graphics went from vibrant and colorful, down to drab and comic book like, sorta like crackdown 1. Yet we still got the controls, controls, controls.. wait! Did we even ask for that stuff? No, No we didnt.
What that brings us to is, after a continual wait for the demo cause you gotta feel it, and in a sense what you see means nothing.. the demo comes.
..... AND so does an onslaught of bashing and dicontent with a demo that looks exactly like what we played at venice beach, which was touted as an early build. Wont even get into how horrible of an experience it is IMO because plenty of people have done that already.
Needless to say, this is one of the biggest let downs of this gen for too many bball fans. The generic gameplay, the lack of animations, the purposely programmed stiff movement, the dead atmosphere (not the crowd, but the lack of life in the AI and overall gameplay).. and so on There is hardly a reason one can find to support this direction.
Again apologies for any offenses but you know, im tired of guys saying trash is okay when its not okay. Im tired of bball fans getting the shaft and charged 65 bucks for it.. Im tired of the excuses.. looking at what 2k did this year, there are no more excuses.. they've done more with less for years now, YEARS! There is no excuse for that, its just downright sad.
Nope I didnt get to get to EAC and give input due to a family surgery, but I wont stop challenging them to make a better game. Sitting back accepting just anything and seeing nothing besides the word potential come out of it is beyond old.
I wont even get into the people who got bent over and wasted, who spent 65 bucks on a college game that rewards them with nothing but freezing and not so much as a good will patch out of it.
Does it make sense to you? Not to me.
# 1
Last_Chapter @ Sep 23
Wow. You took the words out of my mouth. Many of us who have been with Ea since Lakers vs Celtics back in 89 have put up with alot. I switched to 2k in 07 like many others did. Live 10 was a good game so why kill it and then put out a generic game on the market and say " Don't mind the graphics you have to feel the controls." Really cmon Ea many of us are not 8 and 9 anymore. You game isn't the must have anymore. All we wanted was a good game but that was ruined yet again. This 3 year plan deal has got to go. In my eyes it's just an excuse. Now i see why NBA jam was been packaged with Elite but to little too late its going to take alot more than Jam to get me to buy Elite. Oh and for those that will defend this atrocious game no matter what. I think its time to gracefully bow out.
# 2
IV THA UNITY @ Sep 23
Wow, I agree with just about everything, except the trash comment, its just a really bad game. lol even though it may not seem like it, somebody did pour a little sweat into the game. lol
# 3
IV THA UNITY @ Sep 23
As a game designer when making a game its always best to iterate the standard that is set. for example controls. Every pc gamer knows what wasd is used for, if its not broken why fix it, you don't. You improve on it, not make it worse. Too Much control is going against the grain. By the way controls are the easiest thing to map to a controller, don't believe me download the unity program and see for yourself. Thats something you will learn in the first tutorial.
Secondly the game should not and I repeat should not be called NBA anything if it doesn't represent the sport. Also if it is meant to be arcade why is it not pick up and play? I'm not saying its trash, but there were some decisions made that should have been questioned. Ever since Lakers Vs.Celtics Signature moves was in EA BBall games, so what happened to at least differentiating between the Marquee players? I mean when I played the 2k Demo, just the demo I saw something new every time I played it. In elite for the 4 to 5 hours I played it ( yes I perfected the controls) I saw the same things over and over again. Fast breaks are almost non existent because players stop running when they pick the ball up. I'm sorry for being forward but the people who don't see the flaws seriously don't watch basketball. Not an insult but when you don't watch BBALL and only know about Kobe and Lebron you probably are in the same league with what elite represents. And I have seen the Free throw line dunk too many times to even consider buying this. Plus I got 2K11 for 17 bucks on amazon so I definitely would not be paying more than 5 bucks for elite. Lmao. I hope EA hires some Passionate Basketball Game Designer for their next game because something is definitely wrong.
Secondly the game should not and I repeat should not be called NBA anything if it doesn't represent the sport. Also if it is meant to be arcade why is it not pick up and play? I'm not saying its trash, but there were some decisions made that should have been questioned. Ever since Lakers Vs.Celtics Signature moves was in EA BBall games, so what happened to at least differentiating between the Marquee players? I mean when I played the 2k Demo, just the demo I saw something new every time I played it. In elite for the 4 to 5 hours I played it ( yes I perfected the controls) I saw the same things over and over again. Fast breaks are almost non existent because players stop running when they pick the ball up. I'm sorry for being forward but the people who don't see the flaws seriously don't watch basketball. Not an insult but when you don't watch BBALL and only know about Kobe and Lebron you probably are in the same league with what elite represents. And I have seen the Free throw line dunk too many times to even consider buying this. Plus I got 2K11 for 17 bucks on amazon so I definitely would not be paying more than 5 bucks for elite. Lmao. I hope EA hires some Passionate Basketball Game Designer for their next game because something is definitely wrong.
# 4
R9NALD9 @ Sep 23
Your last line hits the nail on the head IV THA UNITY!
Passion is what EA is severly lacking! I actually posted a while ago that Triburon is lacking passion for football and that is why Madden is such a stale unimaginative experience.
When you have a look at Nba 2k11, and back to NFL 2k5 you can just see the passion of the creative minds behind the game. How they went into every little detail to make the experience as authentic as possible.
It's a moneymaking game to EA, nothing more and nothing less...and this will never change. And so NBA and Madden games will never change as well...they will remain crap!
The only two titles EA have that are worth being proud of is NHL and FIFA, and you can once again see the passion in the NHL titles. Although FIFA is good, IMHO I feel if Konami hadn't thrown away their dominance with PES...FIFA wouldn't have been THE soccer game at this point in time. No Fifa game comes close to PES5/6 IMO.
Passion is what EA is severly lacking! I actually posted a while ago that Triburon is lacking passion for football and that is why Madden is such a stale unimaginative experience.
When you have a look at Nba 2k11, and back to NFL 2k5 you can just see the passion of the creative minds behind the game. How they went into every little detail to make the experience as authentic as possible.
It's a moneymaking game to EA, nothing more and nothing less...and this will never change. And so NBA and Madden games will never change as well...they will remain crap!
The only two titles EA have that are worth being proud of is NHL and FIFA, and you can once again see the passion in the NHL titles. Although FIFA is good, IMHO I feel if Konami hadn't thrown away their dominance with PES...FIFA wouldn't have been THE soccer game at this point in time. No Fifa game comes close to PES5/6 IMO.
# 5
NASIR2385 @ Sep 23
@#3
but stilll your missing the point. Even though EA blew there system from live 10 to elite 11 its still about the representation of 5on5 basketball in the nba and around the globe. EA is clearly directed towards a different audience another platform which is the people who arent really interested in basktball sports wise but can play the game because its easy enough to control. The nuances of the game are missing in elite and are replaced with the basic concepts of nhl 11 from stick movement = feet on ice movement. thats not compatiable to onball movement = footwork,angles,precision,speed, ect ect... NUANCES. if you listened to the OS radioblob show CZAR made some great points about how elite really doesnt work for the sim gamer. im like you, i played live and denied 2k for years sayin it was second best even when it was 19.99 on ps2 but as a bballer and a gamer live/elite missing the basic principles of what 5on5 basketball is. its som much more than dribbling and having control to do whatever you want because thats just not realistic, Thats not basketball.
but stilll your missing the point. Even though EA blew there system from live 10 to elite 11 its still about the representation of 5on5 basketball in the nba and around the globe. EA is clearly directed towards a different audience another platform which is the people who arent really interested in basktball sports wise but can play the game because its easy enough to control. The nuances of the game are missing in elite and are replaced with the basic concepts of nhl 11 from stick movement = feet on ice movement. thats not compatiable to onball movement = footwork,angles,precision,speed, ect ect... NUANCES. if you listened to the OS radioblob show CZAR made some great points about how elite really doesnt work for the sim gamer. im like you, i played live and denied 2k for years sayin it was second best even when it was 19.99 on ps2 but as a bballer and a gamer live/elite missing the basic principles of what 5on5 basketball is. its som much more than dribbling and having control to do whatever you want because thats just not realistic, Thats not basketball.
# 6
kennyacid @ Sep 23
good write-up
It really is just excuses or just complete lack of knowledge of basketball. Yes I know they are targeting a different audience but thats still no excuse for the terrible animations and general gameplay. I dont mind that they went the 70% arcade - 30%sim rout , thats all fine and dandy but the game still needs to run good and be responsive. Now im not going to completely bash the game because i still havent played the retail copy but dang even though im mainly 2k guy i was really looking forward to Elite because i actually enjoyed live more last year and i saw the potential it had....its just sad smh
It really is just excuses or just complete lack of knowledge of basketball. Yes I know they are targeting a different audience but thats still no excuse for the terrible animations and general gameplay. I dont mind that they went the 70% arcade - 30%sim rout , thats all fine and dandy but the game still needs to run good and be responsive. Now im not going to completely bash the game because i still havent played the retail copy but dang even though im mainly 2k guy i was really looking forward to Elite because i actually enjoyed live more last year and i saw the potential it had....its just sad smh
# 8
DR Russell @ Sep 23
I have been thinking the same here in terms of Elite being developed for a different audience and its the only logical idea i have. I believe that if this was a kids game, mainly advertised for children, we would have a better perspective. We would actually enjoy the game for what it is and not nitpick and complaint how this is not a simulation.
Great read, thanks 23.
Great read, thanks 23.
# 9
theprocess @ Sep 23
The lack of advertising and insight on EA's part has me to believe that they were trying to sneak this game under the radar. The big-wigs wanted to fool the fans of the series into buying this game, if I would show this to my friends who aren't part of OS, I'm sure they would have so many negative things to say about ELITE. I could see how the game could be fun but it lacks overall replay value...this is something you rent rather than own.
# 10
23 @ Sep 23
I call it trash because of a few reasons. False advertisement, and also a lack thereof... a step or two back from its best iteration, posing as an NBA sim when its good and well not.. and for the fact that the game is purposely not imitating true to life anatomy and physics yet claimed it was and would change the way the game is played was all a huge front.
When it came time, the talk was more than the showing. Dave Littman promised people direct capture videos but ducked and hid when it came down to it because there was no way to make this game look good, so they simply decided to tell you to ignore that part.
Well not for $65, in 2010 after about 7 iterations of the series and a rebooted name Elite. Im seeing a talk that cant walk and until they prove to the fans they can make a relevant and great game, they'll never gain the trust of basketball fans as a whole.
Its a shame people are just accepting things we should be way past
When it came time, the talk was more than the showing. Dave Littman promised people direct capture videos but ducked and hid when it came down to it because there was no way to make this game look good, so they simply decided to tell you to ignore that part.
Well not for $65, in 2010 after about 7 iterations of the series and a rebooted name Elite. Im seeing a talk that cant walk and until they prove to the fans they can make a relevant and great game, they'll never gain the trust of basketball fans as a whole.
Its a shame people are just accepting things we should be way past
# 12
Last_Chapter @ Sep 23
23 i agree with you 100%. Ea did themselves in with the Dev diaries and what not. Im still waiting to see this RTP. It's just bad business sense to not advertise or to falsely advertise what your product is bring to the table. When they finally put out info and what not im sure they had some people fooled. Sadly the videos pulled the wool from many peoples eyes but then Ea tells use to ignore the lack of graphics, ignore the lack of signatures. Its like why use d wade when damn near everyone runs dribbles and shoots a like. Is this a joke Ea is like the borg you will be assimulated. It show so much in Elite smh.
# 13
23 @ Sep 23
False advertisement might be a little harsh, but moreso.. it seems as though everytime EA pumps up a new feature the implementation of it is stale, not right, broken, then its scrapped for the next new thing.. see WTF's post on that kind of thing. No more DNA or Dynamic season, just RTP that looks more like something out of static shock.
The demonizing of animations is what did it for me. Its not that they arent evil, its just that EA didnt have them. On top of that the dev says, his confidence isnt shaken by all of the discontent and its still fun to the dev group... They dont get it
Its not about whats fun to them, its about what the customer is asking for.
The demonizing of animations is what did it for me. Its not that they arent evil, its just that EA didnt have them. On top of that the dev says, his confidence isnt shaken by all of the discontent and its still fun to the dev group... They dont get it
Its not about whats fun to them, its about what the customer is asking for.
# 14
23 @ Sep 23
btw, drss... im not against physics or controls and never was. Never was against it.. matter of fact, I challenge anyone who loves Elite today to make a better mix than my Live 10 mix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEG_uttl8fQ
I challenge you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEG_uttl8fQ
I challenge you
# 15
DJ @ Sep 24
Good blog, Dre. I still can't believe EA is charging full-price for what is basically a new control scheme tech demo.
Live 10 was SO GOOD pre-patch and DNA Update. Once those Synergy reports started coming in and giving 95% of the players cold streaks, it made the game tough to play b/c the User couldn't hit a jump shot unless they bumped the sliders way up. The patches seemed to make defense tougher to play as there was more sliding/skating and fastbreaks were non-existent.
I know you did all you could to support Live 10, going so far to re-rate all the players to try and fix the DNA mess. We collaborated a lot, testing things out and had the game playing solid but you couldn't take those rosters in Dynasty (which was very shallow anyway and is no different in Elite) b/c the game jacked up the player rotations. Hilton Armstrong starting @ SG for the Hornets? WOW.
I wasn't a huge fan of 2K10 but it proved to be at least playable as the Association Mode was real nice. 2K11 is going to be like College Hoops 2K8 in that it will be a game that is talked about for years to come.
Dre, I also agree with you on NCAA 10; that was really bad by EA not to address that freezing issue. A company that big should fix that type of problem within 7 days of release, imo. I don't care if they were going to cancel the series; you still should offer support to those people that paid $65 for the game.
Live 10 was SO GOOD pre-patch and DNA Update. Once those Synergy reports started coming in and giving 95% of the players cold streaks, it made the game tough to play b/c the User couldn't hit a jump shot unless they bumped the sliders way up. The patches seemed to make defense tougher to play as there was more sliding/skating and fastbreaks were non-existent.
I know you did all you could to support Live 10, going so far to re-rate all the players to try and fix the DNA mess. We collaborated a lot, testing things out and had the game playing solid but you couldn't take those rosters in Dynasty (which was very shallow anyway and is no different in Elite) b/c the game jacked up the player rotations. Hilton Armstrong starting @ SG for the Hornets? WOW.
I wasn't a huge fan of 2K10 but it proved to be at least playable as the Association Mode was real nice. 2K11 is going to be like College Hoops 2K8 in that it will be a game that is talked about for years to come.
Dre, I also agree with you on NCAA 10; that was really bad by EA not to address that freezing issue. A company that big should fix that type of problem within 7 days of release, imo. I don't care if they were going to cancel the series; you still should offer support to those people that paid $65 for the game.
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